The 11 chairs of the Chosen

[bRANDan]

We see at a meeting of the Chosen that there are 11 chairs set out, and indicater that 11 Chosen remain.

 

1) Greandal

2) Moridin/Ishamael

3) Demandred

4) Mesaana

5) Semirhage

6) Cyndane/Lanfear

7) Osan'gar/Balthamel

8) Moghedien

 

9) Aran'gar/Aginor(Can't remember if he was still alive then?)

 

10) ?

11) ?

 

Who are the remaining Chosen? The DO said Rahvin was lost outside of time and Asmodean died for his treason, and RJ said that Sammael was dead for good. Could Bel'al be one of the remaining? Yes he was balefired, but balefire only makes it harder for the DO to retrieve the spirit because he/she has a shorter timeframe in which to get the spirit. Ishamael was watching when Bel'al died so maybe the DO had time. It's more than plausible so I'll leave it at that.

 

Who are the others? The number of chairs was, I feel, exact and an indicator to the other Chosen present. There are at least one other, maybe two, Chosen now. I think this is an indicator at least that Taim has been raised by the DO to Chosen.

 

If Aran'gar was dead at the time, and I don't think the DO would bring him back again, then another chair would symbolise a newly raised Chosen. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if this chair does symbolize a new Chosen, than this would be a powerful person in Shara, as all the ruling party is made up of channelers. Plus we've heard alot about them but nothing tangible has ever come of it, and I would like some Shara involvement in TG. RJ could have thrown them in there to throw us off though, but if it wasn't a Sharan who could it be?

 

Your thoughts?

[Guest adamld]

I am not sure the chairs matter that much.

 

However, if they do, yes they could be new chosen. Though 2 chosen are barely "chosen" anymore, having their souls caged as they are to moridin.

 

Bel'al is very very dead. He is not coming back.

 

As for Shara, RJ has barely touched on them. I think he realised he doesn't have enough time to do so in Book 12 either. Rand apparently has to make an appearance in Seanchan I can't see him doing a stopover in Shara. So many new charactors would have to be introduced.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Two small points: firstly, Aginor became Osan'gar, and dies at the Cleansing, while Balthamel became Aran'gar, and is still alive. Secondly, Rand will not be making any stopovers in Seanchan. RJ has apparently said the main sequence books will not be returning there, and he has no reason to go unless you believe the corrupted Seanchan version of the Prophecies.

[Guest adamld]

Good point. So no Seanchan holidays but definately no time for Shara.

[Luckers]

The two chairs were most probably for Sammael and Osan'gar, who whilst dead, are not directly known to be dead yet by the Shadow.

 

That being said, some suggest that one of the extra chairs was placed for Taim, not Sammael. This is based and supported in the idea of Taim being raised chosen--yet it requires that Shaidar Haren placed the chairs, so....

[Guest adamld]

Taim is definately the best candidate to be raised Chosen. He has done more for the Shadow than anyone except Maybe Ishy. If you are only counting in the last 1000 or so.

 

Taim is dangerous, he has more firepower than the Chosen do. He's running the slightly blacker part of the Black Tower, with a hundred or so Asha'man at his disposal. He has also captured 50 odd Aes Sedai.

 

Finally, he was turned from the Light by 13 Myrdraal and 13 Black Ajah, the only person that I know of so he's pretty special as far as Dreadlords go.

[Mr Ares]

Finally, he was turned from the Light by 13 Myrdraal and 13 Black Ajah, the only person that I know of so he's pretty special as far as Dreadlords go.

Evidence for that?

[Luckers]

Indeed, it seems far more likely that he has been darkfriend for a while given that he was gathering and training men as much as ten years ago. Most probably he was recruited and trained by Ishamael following his manifestation sixteen years ago (when he killed Jarna Milari and learnt the Dragon was reborn (or at least recieved confirmation)) much like Ishamael did during the Trolloc Wars.

[aussie_ashaman123]

You know, all this evidence of Taim being a darkfriend is very curcumstantial. He hasn't admitted it. I would find it very funny if Taim turns out to be little more than a mutinous dog with bad character judgement.

[Majsju]

It is quite possible one chair was for Osan'gar, if Moridin failed to learn what happened to him during the cleansing. The other chair...Taim seems more likely that Sammael, since Moridin did not seem certain whether or not it actually was Sammael who had ordered the trollocs.

 

Or, Moridin put an extra chair just to mess with the other forsaken ;D

 

Indeed, it seems far more likely that he has been darkfriend for a while given that he was gathering and training men as much as ten years ago.

 

Gathering seems a bit of a stretch.

[Naudran Grimnir]

Taim is dangerous, he has more firepower than the Chosen do. He's running the slightly blacker part of the Black Tower, with a hundred or so Asha'man at his disposal. He has also captured 50 odd Aes Sedai.

 

According to Logain in Crossroads of Twilight, Taim have round 20 - 30 Asha'man in his corner (also they're the only ones in the Black Tower that has been raised to Asha'man level).

 

Also, someone (Logain, I think) mentioned in an earlier book that none of Taim's Asha'man bonded an Aes Sedai. So, technically he doesn't have those 50, unless the specific Dedicated decides to join his side (whan all hell breaks loose)

[Guest durram laddel cham]

And in KoD he has 50 Asha'man and 50 or so dedicated or soldier. Bringing the total score to 100.

[Naudran Grimnir]

Ahhh, sweetness. Still need to do my re-read of KoD, currently at CoT :)

[trakand_01]

The two chairs were most probably for Sammael and Osan'gar, who whilst dead, are not directly known to be dead yet by the Shadow.

 

That being said, some suggest that one of the extra chairs was placed for Taim, not Sammael. This is based and supported in the idea of Taim being raised chosen--yet it requires that Shaidar Haren placed the chairs, so....

 

have you ever seen caretakers laying out the chairs for school assembly? Its a fair few years since i did, but i've got a mental image of Shaidar Haran putting them all out, getting frustrated when they dont 'click' together properly...

[Luckers]

Heh. I wonder if he was that one kid who innevitably catches his hand in the clip-lock.

 

Quote

Indeed, it seems far more likely that he has been darkfriend for a while given that he was gathering and training men as much as ten years ago.

 

Gathering seems a bit of a stretch.

 

Oh? He tells us himself--oh sure, he implies that they went mad and died, but as a darkfriend thats unlikely. You disagree?

[Majsju]

Oh? He tells us himself--oh sure, he implies that they went mad and died, but as a darkfriend thats unlikely. You disagree?

 

He tells us he has found five men able to channel over the years. Hardly an attempt to gather an army.

And given Taims nature, I find it very unlikely they would be alive and well for years without anyone noticing anything. Even more unlikely that Taim would run around playing at being the Dragon reborn without having them around.

[Tyrell]

Given Ish's questionable sanity, it's probably equally likely that there would be any given number of chairs from none at all to as many as he felt like.

 

Although either one, or a certain number between one and thirteen or so would probably have given the remaining Chosen the most food for thought.

[Luckers]

He tells us he has found five men able to channel over the years. Hardly an attempt to gather an army.

And given Taims nature, I find it very unlikely they would be alive and well for years without anyone noticing anything. Even more unlikely that Taim would run around playing at being the Dragon reborn without having them around.

 

I never said it was an army, though i have no problem with that--we know Ishamael managed to gather a sizeable amount of male channelers to serve in the Trolloc Wars, i have no issue with that occuring again. And besides, he's hardly likely to tell Rand he had gathered hundreds. But again, all i said was that he was gathering and training men, which he was, he said so himself.

 

As for the rest, he would if he was under Ishamael's thumb, which he almost certainly was. Wherever darkfriends who have the ability are taken after being tested its clearly at least somewhat out of the way--somewhere in the Mountains of Mist would be my guess, though i do remember that theory about the Land of the Madmen being a shadow stronghold, or simply Shayol Ghoul--though i reckon we'd have seen signs were that the case.

 

And as such if he declared himself the Dragon Reborn it would only be at Ishamael's direction, which means he probably wasn't given supporting channelers. It would attract too much attention, and Ishamael's intentions were likely only in causing chaos, and further alienating the Randlanders with the idea of the Dragon.

[Majsju]

Thing is, Taim never said anything about gathering men who can channel. He said he had found five who tested positive, and only one of those five actually wanted to learn.

Of course he can be Mr Liarpants here, but that's a different story.

 

As for Ishy recruiting him 16 years ago, that would have Taim being recruited somewhere etween 10-13. Years before he started to channel. And unless the forsaken have a secret way of detecting mens ability to channel before they are old enough to actually do it, I just don't see ishy taking a personal interest in some little brat, even if most kids that age seems evil enough to become great DFs.

[Luckers]

i never said sixteen years ago, i said as much as ten years ago--which is true, if he is around 28, then the longest back he may have sparked is ten years.

 

And the fact still remains that Taim was testing men for the ability to channel, and then training them. Prevaricate all you want about details--and its true, i do feel that he was lying about that, and that he was a part of a plan by Ishamael to create an army of dreadlords, but i never suggested any of that here, because that is based on a feeling. You were the one who brought that up. I merely said he has gathered and trained channelers in the past--the testing is enough affirmative action for the word 'gathered'--unless your suggesting that all five men were from the same place? That seems a bit far-fetched to me, not to mention risque for him--and him actually training them is more than enough for the word 'trained'. Face it Maj, you leapt before you looked.

 

As a side note, though, we know from the Guide that the ability to channel can be found and activated as young as ten years of age in both men and women--like you, i don't see Ishy doing that here, but i thought you might find it interesting.

[Guest adamld]

Finally, he was turned from the Light by 13 Myrdraal and 13 Black Ajah, the only person that I know of so he's pretty special as far as Dreadlords go.

Evidence for that?

 

Oh sorry, I didn't realise I was the only who thought that. I don't have 11 books with me here at work so I'll just say that he is a very odd man. He disappeared shortly after proclaiming himself, though not before making enough trouble for Bashere to have the man gunning for him across Saldea. What sort of darkfriend tries to raise an army of the Dragon? You think he received "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" type orders way back then? Not likely, he was what he was, he tried to do what he did, and then he was turned. Now making up some very thin story as to what happened to him. He has also received training, whatever you think he has most definately been trained and who by?

 

If you think you are the dragon reborn you are not often also a Darkfriend. I think once upon a time he was a simple man who thought he could be the Dragon. But not now, Taim is almost the perfect example of what would result if you twisted someone who was good so that all their darker traits come to the forefront. He was turned if anyone was.

[Majsju]

Luckers, to me gathering means intentionally seeking out channelers for a purpose. From what Taim says, he might have stumbled across these five blokes by pure incident during his about ten years as a channeler. From what he says, he only trained one of these five.

 

And even if there was an intent behind it, it might be something completly shadow-unrelated issue. Like, realising that proclaiming himself the Dragon Reborn will cause a conflict with Aes Sedai, a conflict where you might want some serious firepower backing you up. Even without the intention of proclaiming himself TDR, just being a male channeler means a huge risk of confronting Aes Sedai. After all, the reason RJ gave us for Taims decision to join Rand was exactly that, teaming up with other male channelers offers a greater deal of protection.

 

As for the ability to test kids as young as ten, that was of course true in the AOL, when things were a bit more controlled. I was meaning something a bit more like how female channelers can sense the ability in others, without need for any active testing. Since I can not see Ishy walking around testing any brat who wants to join the shadow. Heck, even seeing Ishy being out recruiting children strikes me as extremely unlikely.

 

That is the beauty of it, there are pretty much no real answers about Taim (except that he is not an old-school forsaken in disguise).

[Luckers]

Luckers, to me gathering means intentionally seeking out channelers for a purpose. From what Taim says, he might have stumbled across these five blokes by pure incident during his about ten years as a channeler. From what he says, he only trained one of these five.

 

To me, it doesn't. You may want to concider that before telling someone they are wrong.

 

And no, he tested them, which specifically speaks against 'stumbling on them'. Testing is an affirmative action on his part. And thats more than enough for me.

 

And even if there was an intent behind it, it might be something completly shadow-unrelated issue. Like, realising that proclaiming himself the Dragon Reborn will cause a conflict with Aes Sedai, a conflict where you might want some serious firepower backing you up. Even without the intention of proclaiming himself TDR, just being a male channeler means a huge risk of confronting Aes Sedai. After all, the reason RJ gave us for Taims decision to join Rand was exactly that, teaming up with other male channelers offers a greater deal of protection.

 

I agree, thats perfectly possible. I think it is shadow related, and all of this is irrelevant.

 

As for the ability to test kids as young as ten, that was of course true in the AOL, when things were a bit more controlled. I was meaning something a bit more like how female channelers can sense the ability in others, without need for any active testing. Since I can not see Ishy walking around testing any brat who wants to join the shadow. Heck, even seeing Ishy being out recruiting children strikes me as extremely unlikely.

 

And as i said, it strikes me the same way. Nevertheless its possible.

 

Look bud, you leapt on something you didn't understand with a response to something i wasn't saying. Clearly i have explained myself to you, so this conversation should end now.