Choedan Kal - I am Confused

[The Lost One]

I recall reading here that the Choedan Kal was not used in the sealing of the bore because they keys were lost when the area they were stored in was overrun by darkfriends or some such.

 

I am reading Fire of Heaven and came across the part where Rand thinks (with LTTs memories or whatever) that it was too bad the Choedan Kal was not finished until after the bore was sealed.  If anyone has the quote from the book, it would be greatly appreciated. 

 

So which is accurate?  I would think the quote from the book?  or do I just have my stories mixed up?

[aevogt]

IIRC

 

It does say that the areas making the access keys were overrun by the forces of IIRC Sammael and Be'Lal, in the essay "The Strike on Shayol Ghul"  Though the I don't think the Shadow ever gained possession of them.

 

That event was what made LTT organize the Strike.  The fact that the CKs weren't finished, and more importantly, useless without the keys.  So both are true.  They weren't finished at the time of the strike and the access keys had been compromised

[balefireruinssteaks]

Basically Lews Therin was fighting opposition from the most powerful female Aes Sedai who had banded together and made a pact not to use the female half of the Choedan Kal.  The Aes Sedai in charge of this ban said that it was too dangerous because the CK had not been tested properly.

 

The access ter'angreal had not been completely finished and had to be completed away from the original sa'angreal because of "resonating backlash" or something. 

 

The Shadow overran the area where the access keys were completed and they were lost, but Lews Therin had been pressing the Aes Sedai to use the Choedan Kal to seal the bore, believing it to be more than powerful enough for the job.

 

When the Aes Sedai who opposed him sent people to retrieve the access ter'angreal, they were killed and Lews Therin decided to take the Hundred Companions (the male Aes Sedai who were with him in his plan) and go seal the bore themselves without the help of the female Aes Sedai.

 

That's basically how it happened according to the big white book.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

you seem to have things a little backwards...

 

LTT was always pushing for the strike(albeit with both sexes).  it was the fateful convenant that WANTED to use the choeden kal.  LTT finally launched the strike, without the aid of the female aes sedai, when the attempts to retrieve the access keys failed.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Oh yea!!!

 

LTT's plan was to have male and female channelers linked at the strongest capacities and seal the bore themselves, THAT'S why the female Aes Sedai made a pact to refuse to enter into a link like that.

 

Sorry...I knew it had to do with the girls refusing to help.  That's what I get for trying to sound like Luckers, hehehe.

[General Cauthon]

Actually, LTT planned to use a circle of thirteen, six men and seven women

[balefireruinssteaks]

In the Age of Legends, men and women linked according to ability and strength.  Thus, a combination of the right people could form a more powerful circle even if it wasn't the full seventy or whatever the limit is.

 

In other words if you just grabbed the seventy most powerful channelers and formed a circle, it might not be as powerful or effective as teaming up six men and seven women who were skilled in different abilities, Talents and deftness in their weavings.

 

So a circle of thirteen at that time might have indeed been more effective and powerful than the full limit of linking.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

are you sure...cause i've only ever heard that the skill of the lead [at weaving and knowledge of weaves], affected the circle's skill.  everyone else just contributed to the power.

[Luckers]

are you sure...cause i've only ever heard that the skill of the lead [at weaving and knowledge of weaves], affected the circle's skill.  everyone else just contributed to the power.

 

Indeed, though RJ made it clear several times that smaller circles could in some ways be more effective than larger depending on the male/female number dynamic--the closer the balance the better.

 

And though its already been covered, Latra Posae Decume was the Aes Sedai who opposed Lews Therin and suggested the creation of the Choedan Kal--her basis was that the process of sealing the bore may put too much strain on it and rip it open. At first Lews Therin supported her, but after the Access Keys were lost (to Sammael, though he never knew of it) Lews Therin re-raised his own suggestion, and was again voted down in favour of an attempt to regain the Access Keys. After two such attempts Lews Therin finally was beginning to gain some support (they were within six months of total defeat), so Latra Posae went to the female Aes Sedai who were strong enough in the power to join Lews Therin's circle, and got them to agree to not take part--that agreement was later named the Fateful Concord.

 

She continued on after, incidently. Following Lews Therin's death Latra Posae was named the First Amongst Servants, and her actions during the final days of the Age of Legends (a forty year period) earnt her the title Shaidar Nor, the Slicer of Shadow. This suggest to me that far from being a criticism, the name the Fateful Concord was praise, that it saved women from going insane, and thus ultimately saved the world. Personally i think this was probably wrong--mostly coz RJ is heavy on the men and women together = stronger thing, but meh.

[The Lost One]

And though its already been covered, Latra Posae Decume was the Aes Sedai who opposed Lews Therin and suggested the creation of the Choedan Kal--her basis was that the process of sealing the bore may put too much strain on it and rip it open. At first Lews Therin supported her, but after the Access Keys were lost (to Sammael, though he never knew of it) Lews Therin re-raised his own suggestion, and was again voted down in favour of an attempt to regain the Access Keys. After two such attempts Lews Therin finally was beginning to gain some support (they were within six months of total defeat), so Latra Posae went to the female Aes Sedai who were strong enough in the power to join Lews Therin's circle, and got them to agree to not take part--that agreement was later named the Fateful Concord.

 

 

So here comes my confusion again.....what purpose would the access keys serve if the thing was not finished?  Why all the arguing over whether or not to use the Choedan Kal if it was not even finished at the time the bore was sealed? 

[Luckers]

It was finished, though not yet tested,

 

The issue came because the access keys were lost. Sammael over ran the facility in which they were held--though he never knew it.

 

The arguments went like this. LTT suggested the sealing, but people were concerned that the stress of placing the seals would rip the bore open. Latra Posae suggested an alternative, the creation of the Choedan Kal. They were created, but as they were finished the access keys that made them safe were lost. After two attempts to covertly retrieve them Lews Therin finally gained support for his plan amongst the Aes Sedai, but Latra Posae had gotten all the female Aes Sedai dtrong enough to act in his plan to agree not to take part. (the fateful concord).

 

So, with defeat in sight, Lews Therin acted without the women, resulting in the tainting of saidin.

[The Lost One]

It was finished, though not yet tested,

 

 

So is the passage from the book wrong?  That was my original question.  LTT states that it was not finished until after the bore was sealed.  Is it just a mistake on RJs part? 

 

 

[cheyjade]

So is the passage from the book wrong? 

 

It's my understanding that the BWB was written as if by historians from the time of the sixth book. Thus, small mistakes were included intentionally.

[Alexius]

 

So, with defeat in sight, Lews Therin acted without the women, resulting in the tainting of saidin.

Might both halves of the Source have been tainted had both been used to seal the Bore?

[Luckers]

So is the passage from the book wrong?  That was my original question.  LTT states that it was not finished until after the bore was sealed.  Is it just a mistake on RJs part? 

 

I don't actually remember that passage, so im not sure. It's possible that LTT was referring to the fact that they were never properly tested. In any case, yes, the Choedan Kal were finished prior to the sealing of the bore, it was only the loss of the Access Keys to Sammael's incursion that led to LTT acting.

 

It should be noted as well that the Choedan Kal were never intended to be used to Seal the bore in the way LTT wanted done--they would be used to place a shield over the bore to stop the Dark One's influence so that they would have time to come up with a more permenant and safe method of sealing the bore.

 

Might both halves of the Source have been tainted had both been used to seal the Bore?

 

Perhaps. No one's really sure, but personally i feel that RJ has made a theme in his books about how men and women are stronger working together, less assailliable... a complete unit, as it were. I think that had women been involved the circle would have been complete and protected. But again, its not sure.