Total Compulsion: 13 Channelers & 13 Myrdraal linked

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So I am currently just embarking on another read of the books, I've just gotten into the Dragon Reborn, and upon reading the chapter that Egwene faces the trial of the Accepted.

 

When she is in the second arch of the Ter'angreal she sees Rand pinned to the ground by a pillar of stone from a fallen ceiling, he asks her to kill him saying that its the only way to save him, that he has to focus inwardly to keep at bay the insanity that probably was the same fit that took Telamon in the prologue of tEotW, and that the darkfriends and Aes Sedai coming for him would be able to turn him to the Shadow against his will. When Egwene comes out of the Ter'angreal she asks Sheriam if that is possible, and sheriam tells her that it isn't something that is spoke of and that, as far as she knew, it isn't something that had been done since the Trolloc Wars. And that being able to channel means that the channeler can be opened up to, or is opened up by the ability, to certain other apparantly dangerous thngs. she says that the last time it happened it took 13 Dreadlords (male Aes Sedai) and 13 Myrdraal. 

 

When i first read this i thought maybe she was saying that Lews Therin's kinslaying madness was in fact a psychological infestation of his mind, by his mind via the double circle of power, but she says that it happened in the Trolloc Wars. so I ask you, what is this mechanism of the shadow? Is it a way to make a giant spirit warrior like we see in japanese animation? or is it a way to use compulsion to a point that the circle of channelers puppet the body of the victim?

 

I don't want to take the easy way out and admit that this could be another point in the series that RJ ended up changing or leaving undeveloped because of the authenticity of the series. I say that because i felt that the possible actions i see being the reason for linking Dreadlords and myrdraal are inherantly cliche. I often feel that Jordan writes these novels in a strings of consciousness that very much does the verbal job of describing japanime action, and wonder if maybe he means to take another characteristic of the japanese mythos and introduce giant extentions of the key Pattern Players in TG. Then again, it doesn't seem like he means to hold with that kind of solid symbolism after seeing how huge moments like cleansing saidin unfolded in later books. I mean in tEotW, we saw alot of archtypal activity out of moraine, but it seemed totally authentic because of the concept of it being t OP and Weaves and etc. she bent the light around her to appear she was a giant, and stepped over the wall of Baerlon (so perhaps she ACTUALLY grew) and shot fireballs and used a staff to do it all and etc, now we hardly ever see stuff like that, and i think in many ways it is for the better.

 

anyway let me know what you think, or if you remember something from later books that i do not that shed some light on this historical querry. 

[Naudran Grimnir]

13 Dreadlords (male Aes Sedai)

 

The Dreadlords weren't only male channelers, they were male & female (as per the BWB)

 

Is it a way to make a giant spirit warrior like we see in japanese animation? or is it a way to use compulsion to a point that the circle of channelers puppet the body of the victim?

 

The way RJ explained it (can't find the quote, sure someone else will be able to), was that the person was literally turned to the Dark. They become "evil" and without the necessary morals that one associates with being "good". So their actions afterwards are their own (not a puppet, not being physically controlled by the circle), they just purely evil afterwards and follow the DO with all their being.

[Majsju]

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

[balefireruinssteaks]

I was actually confused about Egwene's Accepted experience.  In the episode you're talking about, she bests 13 Myrdraal and 13 full Sisters all by herself.  I remember them all screaming "shield her...we can't, she's too strong!!!"

 

I can't imagine Egwene is really THAT powerful unless the 13 sisters in that particular moment were the weakest EVER!!!

[Luckers]

Remember the Novice's personal beliefs influence that reality. It might be that after hearing so many go on and on about her strength that she secrety thought she would be capable of such things when she gained the Shawl, and as such the ter'angreal's reality shifted to include that.

 

[bjclinton]

I agree w/ Luckers on this one...sort of like TAR- she has a modicum of control over the false reality around her.

 

If this were real, even 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai should be able to shield her. I don't have the quote, but I remember reading somewhere that there is something significant about the number 13....that once you have 13 AS linked, stregth is irrelevant and you can be shielded.

 

Does someone remember where that quote was?

 

I know its mentioned a few times in TFOH and TSR if that helps.

[Luckers]

If this were real, even 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai should be able to shield her. I don't have the quote, but I remember reading somewhere that there is something significant about the number 13....that once you have 13 AS linked, stregth is irrelevant and you can be shielded.

 

Thats not entirely accurate, its just that given at least 65% of the individuals strength must be contributed, and maybe as high as 90%, then even thirteen of the weakest Aes Sedai (Daigian or Elin Worrel at 38.2units of strength), would exceed the strongest a channeler could be alone and unaided, and thus could shield them--indeed, even with an angreal a man of Rand's strength would be hardpressed to fight off a circle of thirteen Daigian's.

 

I mean think about it, the minimum a circle of thirteen Aes Sedai could amount to is 322.79 units of strength. (65% of 38.2 x 13). That is the weakest final amount that thirteen Aes Sedai could ever end up with--its probably much higher, given the way links are spoken of i would suggest at least 85% or 90% contribution, but the very weakest possible is still triple Rand's strength, which remember is 109 units of strength at best, and he is the strongest a man could be. Even with an angreal he wouldn't be able to match that circle.

 

There's nothing special about thirteen, its just unbeatable because of the strength it represents.

[aevogt]

Also, there's no indication the sisters in her accepted vision quest were linked.  Egwene could easily defeat any of the "current" examples of Aes Sedai.  Only Nyneave and some of the newest "discoveries"  Talene, Someryn, Alivia, could best her head to head.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Where is everyone finding these measurements of strength in the Power? its bugging me now

[Luckers]

The 38.2 unit thing is direct from an RJ quote stating that 62.8% of female channelers are strong enough to attain the Shawl. The 65% strength contribution to a circle thing is based on the fact that circles do increase upon the strength of one channeler alone to a significant degree. As such it would need to be at least 65%, anything less and it would be an almost unnoticeable difference from the single strength of the original channelers. It is, more than probably, something much closer to 85% or 90%, but i was attempting to show that even with worse case scenario it still results in a circle that exceeds even the strongest single channeler.

 

The rest is just math.

 

 

[The Lost One]

I think RJ used the "13" as a signifcant number for a few things.  Regardless of the number crunching, it is mentioned in the books a few times now that even 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai could shield any man.  I would just stay away from any circles of 13...lol.