Never to make a weapon for one man to kill another...

[Southwick]

My bad.

[Mr Ares]

Not sure I agree there Xander.  The third oath reads  "Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister."

 

Darkfriends or Shadowspawn.  Moraine could at her discretion, have flamed Padan Fain whenever she wanted.   It's just that in the story, most of the DF's captured by Aes Sedai (those bound by the Three Oaths in any case) are Black Ajah and far more valuable alive as a source of information.

Really? We see Moiraine swear the oaths in NS 11 and she says "I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or of another sister." No mention of Darkfriends.

[Southwick]

probably a typo, since the oath mentions darkfriends in numerous occations elswhere in the books.

[Mr Ares]

probably a typo, since the oath mentions darkfriends in numerous occations elswhere in the books.

Probably she took a slightly different oath to some other sisters.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Probably she took a slightly different oath to some other sisters.

 

Huh? How'd you get that?

 

She took her oath during the same ceremony as any other Aes Sedai. How/why do you presume that she took a different one? It's never been mentioned in the books. Given that the Amy., and reps. from all the Ajahs were there, suggesting that she's sworn a different oath is a bit a stretch.

 

It's surely more likely to be a typo.

[Jehaine]

I believe the actual Oath is just the Shadowspawn, but because of the almost guaranteed threat from Darkfriends running towards them i think they just added that part.

 

Believing you're going to get flamed is a good way to not try to kill an Aes Sedai, anyway.

[Mr Ares]

Probably she took a slightly different oath to some other sisters.

Huh? How'd you get that?

 

She took her oath during the same ceremony as any other Aes Sedai. How/why do you presume that she took a different one? It's never been mentioned in the books. Given that the Amy., and reps. from all the Ajahs were there, suggesting that she's sworn a different oath is a bit a stretch.

 

It's surely more likely to be a typo.

Well, what is the standard wording of the oaths? Is there one, or is it permissible to phrase them however one feels, provided that the sister-to-be actually swears what she is supposed to (for example, if an Aes Sedai swore not to lie, rather than to speak no word that is not true, would anyone bat an eyelid? Provide evidence.)? Do you have any evidence from anywhere else in the books to indicate that Moiraine can kill Darkfriends at will?  Do you, in short, have any good reason for believing that this is a typo? Or that times when Darkfriends have been mentioned as part of the oaths, that those mentions are not erroneous? See, I take what is written in the books to be canonical unless I have good reason not to. Give me a good reason to disregard what was actually written in New Spring. And unless and until you can provide a good reason, kindly do not expect me to give your wholly unsubstantiated viewpoint any support. If there is no standard phrasing then no one would care much if she left out the Darkfriends bit.

[Luckers]

Actually it would seem that there is only one way of stating the oaths. This not only is logical, but is supported by the fact that the of the twenty sisters we have personally witnessed take the oath, all have taken it the same as Siuan and Moiraine.

 

Specifically, we see Pevara and Seaine retake the oaths in front of Zarah, each withtout mention of darkfriends. They insist Zerah take the same oaths, and require her to bring her friends to take those oaths. The four sitters later on presumably also take the same oath considering yet again Pevara and Seaine take the oaths and they follow.

 

So, in every case we have witnessed, and in every case we've seen implied the oath has not contained the mention of darkfriends. Indeed, to my mind the only mention of such was by Sheriam in an idle comment, which a) may be simple personal positioning, and b) may well have come from a black sister.

 

Are there any other incidents of its mention?

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

And unless and until you can provide a good reason, kindly do not expect me to give your wholly unsubstantiated viewpoint any support.

 

I neither expect, nor particularily care, if you support, or reject what I think.

 

I don't have the books infront of me, but after searching on Google I've confirmed what I thought... The Three Oaths are written (at least within the sources I've found) with the first letter of each word in upper case. This strongly suggests that they are standardized.

 

If they weren't standardized you'd expect to see them written like this: the three oaths. As they are written: The Three Oaths, one would expect a  certain level of uniformity. I would suggest that The Three Oaths are standardized and that therefore any deviation from them would be extraordinary.

 

A common example could be the US Pledge of Allegiance. Any deviation from the wording would be considered strange I believe, I'm not American, but that's the feeling I get. Certainly that's the case with similar things in the UK - eg. The National Anthem. Any modification of something like that is a major deal.

 

As for "no would care much," given my views above, I find it highly unlikely that Aes Sedai would decide that it's ok for a sister to modify The Three Oaths. They're the very basis for their position in the world, as they themselves frequently state.

 

Now, that is a good reason, that of a common convention in the writing of English.

 

Anyways, we don't have to agree.

 

***

 

Just seen Luckers post.

 

Just imagine the chaos that could result in Aes Sedai being able to kill DFs. It's a major problem. We've seen that Aes Sedai can tell an untruth if they believe it to be true. Therefore, it seems reasonable to think that they could kill a person if they felt they were a DF. That's a tough one. Being able to kill on suspiscion would be very difficult to police. In my opinion it'd be all but impossible.

[trakand_01]

One thing from the scene you've just mentioned, when Searin, Yukiri, Doseine and ... I forget the other one's name! catch Seaine and Pevara 'at it' in the dungeons after they send Zarah off, that got my attention and which I was suspicious about is that they catch the Black Ajah sister out by each re-taking the oath about not lying. But what they each say after re-taking it is different.

 

The words they say when re-taking the oath doesnt vary, I can't remember exactly what they say but they all say the same.

 

However afterwards, some of them say "I am not a Darkfriend", and some say "I am not Black Ajah". Do you think it's possible that some of them could be darkfriends but NOT black ajah? They could say 'I am not black ajah' and be quite truthful but that doesnt mean they're not darkfriends, surely?

[Luckers]

Indeed, some suggested that Yukiri or Doesine might be Mesaana from that wording, but it seems unlikely given theres been no action against the Hunters since then--and theres no reason there wouldn't be.

 

 

[aevogt]

You may just be correct.  I don't remember where I got the oath with the darkfriends reference but all the others I have found do not mention it at all.

 

Apparently, Aes Sedai cannot use the power to kill a DF simply because they are a DF unless she's in danger from them

[McGrath]

The words they say when re-taking the oath doesnt vary, I can't remember exactly what they say but they all say the same.

 

However afterwards, some of them say "I am not a Darkfriend", and some say "I am not Black Ajah". Do you think it's possible that some of them could be darkfriends but NOT black ajah? They could say 'I am not black ajah' and be quite truthful but that doesnt mean they're not darkfriends, surely?

 

Personally I think that was just a 'realistic' conversation, where they were each saying the same thing in a different way.

 

For example, Person 1: "Are we going to a bar tonight?"

Person 2: "Yeah, that sounds good."

Person three: "Count me in."

 

:)

[Aerri]

This is discussed in the WoT FAQ.  When Moraine uses balefire against that forsaken (forget which), she doesn't just walk in the room and fire at him, she shouts at him, *thus putting herself in danger*, and then kills him.  I don't think Aes Sedai can use the power against Darkfriends unless their lives are threatened.