Curious response

[trakand_01]

I'm just querying something, it may be my understanding.

 

To my understanding, what makes an AS 'of' a particular Ajah is to be raised to the Ajah by way of taking the oaths etc, am I right? So to be BA, the AS would (as far as we know) have been initiated to the Ajah somehow, and have taken the Oaths. Then they are AS, and are 'of' the BA (or any ajah).

 

But at the beginning of book 9, Searin, Seaine, Pevara, Doseine and Yukiri are torturing Talene on the Chair of Remorse after she refused to re-take the Oath about saying no false word and say that she was not a darkfriend. She is hysterical, and she grabs the Oath Rod from... Pevara. She says something along the lines of 'I revoke all Oaths upon me' and then undergoes the pain of being released from her oaths.

 

The first question they ask her after she has re-taken the 3 oaths (and the added one) is 'are you Black Ajah' and she says 'I am'.

 

Surely if she has been released from the BA oaths, she is no longer BA? Perhaps it has to do with her believing that she is still BA, as you can say anything if you believe it?

 

Has there been any incident we can remember where any of the other 'suspicious' AS have actually stated their ajah? I guess if they were truly BA they may well have been released from the truth oath, but if not, surely they could not claim to be, for example, White, if they were actually Black?

 

Does wearing the shawl of a particular ajah (well renowned as a declaration of your ajah) count as lying, or does it have to be something you physically SAY?

 

Also, if Talene forsook her original Ajah (green?) to join the Black, but now has been released of her Black Oaths and has re-taken the ordinary 3 Oaths, which Ajah does she belong to? Would she just go back to being Green, or are we going to be creating a 'new' Ajah, of all the AS who were Black, but have renounced their allegiences and Oaths?

 

I guess all of this is irrelevant if they have been released from the lying Oath, I'm just speculating.  ;D

[el Nynaeve]

Wow, that's quite a thought trakand. I imagine that Talene is still Black Ajah regardless of what oaths she forsaken or taken. I am of the opinion that the Oaths do not make one Aes Sedai, they are merely an aid to helping rulers, etc be more sure of what an Aes Sedai says and does. Well in theory anyway, we all know how AS can make the truth dance a jig. :D All newly raised sisters take the same oaths regardless of what Ajah they will pick. I believe that Talene is still Black Ajah because of what she does and believes, not what oaths she's taken.

 

Hope that's not too confusing a way to put it, lol. :D

[trakand_01]

So it's purely the action of going through the Arches and succeeding, as we see in New Spring when Moiraine does it, that makes them AS?

 

I guess that would make sense; then they would technically be free to move Ajah's once they have been ordained as AS, for example from Green to Black as Talene did.

 

I just found it odd. Seaine even commented at how quickly Talene started calling the other BA sisters 'they'.

 

I guess i'll wait and see :-). I would like to see as many AS as possible be forced to re-take the oath and state thier ajah, or as the others did, that they are not darkfriends. I somehow think that will not happen however.

 

I found it rather frustrating as Talene told them that Elaida 'must be' BA, because 'they' knew everything she was about to decree, everything she did. Surely if they dont think Elaida is BA, Alviarin is the obvious option? I was screaming Alviarin at the book but alas, they didnt hear me... :P

[el Nynaeve]

Yeah, I was shouting Alviarin at my book as well.

 

I'd forgotten about Seaine comments about Talene's 'they'. I think that was merely an attempt by Talene to ingratiate and please the other sisters in order to avoid more punishment. It may even have something to do with the fourth oath they made her take, 'I will obey you in all things' or however they phrased it.

 

And yes, I think it's purely succeeding at the test that makes them AS.

[aevogt]

Your Ajah chooses you.  Pevara doesn't mind men but assumed her

 

What Ajah a particular Accepted moves into upon gaining the Shawl is based on her own personality and world view and has been decided long before she steps through the Shawl-A-Tron 1000.  Logic, History, Healing, Causes, whatever, the Sisters tutoring an Accepted know what predelictions a particular girl has and steer her toward her Ajah, and have probably been doing so since she was a novice. 

 

That's why Green and Red are the largest, so many women are of one view or the other about men.

 

Choosing the Black doesn't change how a Sister sees herself.  The views we have of the 13 BA that fled the Tower indicate they still think like their former Ajah.  The Browns are still bookish, the Whites still logical and so on and so forth. 

 

Becoming Black doesn't make a White think any less logically.

[Bazzles]

I guess if they were truly BA they may well have been released from the truth oath, but if not, surely they could not claim to be, for example, White, if they were actually Black?

 

Er... this may or may not be a spoiler? Read on if you dare!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once a sister becomes Black they are released from the 3 standard oaths(as far as I remember).

[Dhaos]

Black Ajah sisters are 'of' whatever Ajah they joined on gaining the shawl- that is, one of the standard seven.

 

Afterwards, they are 'inducted' into the Black Ajah- but remember, the Black Ajah doesn't have full meetings, or sitters, or whatever.  It's set up like a terrorist organization, or a spy network: members only know those within their particular 'cell', except for the leader of the organization.

 

We have seen evidence that they must be released from the 3 Oaths when they join the Black Ajah.  They frequently lie (see: Liandrin leading the Wonder Girls to Falme).  They use the Power as a weapon freely to commit murder.  We don't see evidence that they "make a weapon with which one man can kill another", but if they had the desire, it's a pretty sure bet they would.

 

Talene's reaction probably stems from whatever new oaths the BA has its members take- probably something about never admitting to the existence of the BA, or about never betraying it.  She could not admit to being- or, I guess, "having been", Black Ajah until her oaths to the dark were lifted.

 

<Shrug> Just remember that the Black Ajah isn't actually an Ajah at all, but a cute way of referring to Aes Sedai who are, in fact, Darkfriends.

[aussie_ashaman123]

i think one of the oaths is to never betray a living black sister, since other captureed BS tell about plats that may have already happened by sisters who are dead

 

Im sure where will be 2 others, they see themselves as Aes sedai still, and the 3 dark oaths have a powerful symbolism.

[Alexius]

i think one of the oaths is to never betray a living black sister, since other captureed BS tell about plats that may have already happened by sisters who are dead

 

Im sure where will be 2 others, they see themselves as Aes sedai still, and the 3 dark oaths have a powerful symbolism.

One is probably to obey the Dark One/ your superiors in the BA.

As for the third...