Laughter and Tears

[slayerA]

she might teach them humility, you have to admit, your average ashaman very arrogant

 

 

So is she and most all the women in the books are too so I doubt it will be humility.

[wvlr]

So is she and most all the women in the books are too so I doubt it will be humility.

 

Caddy and most AS know absolutely nothing about hulility, but especially Caddy.  What is she going to do - tell the Ash'amen to do the opposite of what she and the AS do? 

[Guest cw]

You haven't really been paying attention to what Cadsuane has been doing ever since she was introduced if you think she is arrogant.  You also haven't paid attention to what we know of how she is regarded by those non Aes Sedai whose lives she has touched over the course of her career.  How many people in the books would feel gratitude toward an Aes Sedai after she took a relative in to be Gentled?  After eleven books, Cadsuane is the only one who gets that reaction.  She didn't get that respect and gratitude by being arrogant.  Many Aes Sedai, and certainly all of the Asha'man could do with using her as an example.

 

She does nothing more, nor less, than treat people in a manner consistant with how that person's actions indicate he or she wants to be treated.  The fact that she treats Rand as the two year old he behaves like certainly isn't reason to hate her.  She should be admired for it as she is one of the few people in the books that shows an honest attitude.  The last thing he needs is another person fawning over him while plotting to put a knife in his back the moment he isn't looking.

[wvlr]

You haven't really been paying attention to what Cadsuane has been doing ever since she was introduced if you think she is arrogant.  You also haven't paid attention to what we know of how she is regarded by those non Aes Sedai whose lives she has touched over the course of her career.  How many people in the books would feel gratitude toward an Aes Sedai after she took a relative in to be Gentled?  After eleven books, Cadsuane is the only one who gets that reaction.  She didn't get that respect and gratitude by being arrogant.  Many Aes Sedai, and certainly all of the Asha'man could do with using her as an example.

 

She does nothing more, nor less, than treat people in a manner consistant with how that person's actions indicate he or she wants to be treated.  The fact that she treats Rand as the two year old he behaves like certainly isn't reason to hate her.  She should be admired for it as she is one of the few people in the books that shows an honest attitude.  The last thing he needs is another person fawning over him while plotting to put a knife in his back the moment he isn't looking.

 

 

I'm sorry but (to me) that is absurd on so many levels that I can not count them.

 

The Leader Ruling Council in FM asked to be / deserved to be tricked with her "Parlor Tricks" into releasing Rand?

 

Back in Camen the AS that came to see her, to be deliberately manipulated by her and made to do things that they did not want to do, Tricked and awed by her little "mirror parlor tricks".    They wanted that?    Minn wanted Caddy to do whatever she did to get Minn's and Rand's secrets from her.    The two women that Caddy found after the Camen attack - wanted to be blackmailed into serving Caddy?    The men that Caddy took to be "gentled" and then died because of it are happier now than they would have been if they had been kept in FM or a Steading until the "source" was Cleansed?    Their families are happier now, that they have lost their loved ones?    They are happier with the ones that still live that are broken, dejected and have lost the will to live?

 

How many people in the books would feel gratitude toward an Aes Sedai after she took a relative in to be Gentled?

This is ridiculous!  The people of this world were taught by AS to fear male channelers and to treat male channelers - as if they were "afflicted"    Of course most were glad when AS (Caddy or ANY other AS) came and took the poor afflicted man away.  The only ONE that we have seen that did not show appreciation has been Thom.    And we know that that was a special circumstance - the AS that did it - did not follow proper procedure and just "dumped" the boy afterward.  Enormous difference!

 

From what I have seen of Rand - his actions say that he would greatly like her to take a flying leap off of a tall cliff - if what you say is true why hasn't she done THAT!

 

You also haven't paid attention to what we know of how she is regarded by those non Aes Sedai whose lives she has touched over the course of her career."

 

 

This is nonsense All AS are held in awe and fawned over by the average person - no mater how arrogant we see that they are.

 

 

 

 

Yes - in doing many of these things she has helped Rand TREMENDOUSLY!    But to say that all these things were deserved or some how Asked for by the people she manipulated is absurd.    To say that the same things could not be accomplished in much less overbearing and arrogant manner is equally absurd.

 

[Luckers]

The Leader Ruling Council in FM asked to be / deserved to be tricked with her "Parlor Tricks" into releasing Rand?

 

Don't mistake methodology with personality. But on that path, yes, they did. They were making a power play that endangered the very future of existence. Cadsuane had to act--both by her oath to act in Rand's best interest, and by her common sense. But within the realm of that action she acted with integrity. She asked they release him, she avoided using violence--she did everything in her power to achieve an painless solution... and when she couldn't she still felt regret at having to crush Alise.

 

At every stage she acted with honour and with integrity. Her methods were highly effective, and yes at times destructive to others, but not needlessly so. She wasn't throwing her weight around simply to be in charge, she did it for a specific purpose, and only to the extent nessasary to achieve that purpose.

 

Back in Camen the AS that came to see her, to be deliberately manipulated by her and made to do things that they did not want to do, Tricked and awed by her little "mirror parlor tricks".    They wanted that?    Minn wanted Caddy to do whatever she did to get Minn's and Rand's secrets from her.    The two women that Caddy found after the Camen attack - wanted to be blackmailed into serving Caddy?    The men that Caddy took to be "gentled" and then died because of it are happier now than they would have been if they had been kept in FM or a Steading until the "source" was Cleansed?    Their families are happier now, that they have lost their loved ones?    They are happier with the ones that still live that are broken, dejected and have lost the will to live?

 

What... what does any of that have to do with anything? That she treats people in a manner consistant with how they present themself is not, and has never been suggested to be the cause for everything she does. No one suggested Cadsuane was a teddy bear either. She has a purpose and she is remarkably effective at achieving what she needs to. That does not mean she does not have integrity, or that she doesn't act honourably--because she does. She does whats nessasary, but she does it in the best way possible.

 

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How many people in the books would feel gratitude toward an Aes Sedai after she took a relative in to be Gentled?

This is ridiculous!  The people of this world were taught by AS to fear male channelers and to treat male channelers - as if they were "afflicted"    Of course most were glad when AS (Caddy or ANY other AS) came and took the poor afflicted man away.  The only ONE that we have seen that did not show appreciation has been Thom.    And we know that that was a special circumstance - the AS that did it - did not follow proper procedure and just "dumped" the boy afterward.  Enormous difference!

 

I agree--you just completely misread him. Generic pleasure at having a man who can channel removed from the general vecinity is not the same as the expressed gratitude and warmth given Cadsuane by the brother of a man she had gentled--and him a Tairen at that! So yes, i very much agree that there is an enormous difference.

 

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You also haven't paid attention to what we know of how she is regarded by those non Aes Sedai whose lives she has touched over the course of her career."

 

 

This is nonsense All AS are held in awe and fawned over by the average person - no mater how arrogant we see that they are.

 

But none with warmth. For the others its a respect out of fear. They would just as happily see all Aes Sedai dead and gone. With Cadsuane its deeper, and sincere. Its a respect for her as a person, not a fear of her power.

[wvlr]

Luckers

 

I guess that we are not going to agree on this.

 

I can't see any way that directly Threatening people in FM with the Power which they have extreem fear of - is "acting with integrety" as you put it.    Regardless that she felt bad about it afterward.    I hear a lot of murderers have regrets afterwards as well.   

 

I personally think that if she had tried a little harder to explain the realities to the Council that they would have given in.  "Yes the WT wants this man and the BT wants this man - do you really want a fight between these two groups on your doorstep?    You do realize that single channelers raised mountains and moved oceans during the Breaking?    I wounder what a war of channelers would do here?    Of course it will probably not come to that here, these Ash'amen are very loyal to this man and know how to Travel, they could probably have his large army here within an hour or two.    Much faster than Elida."

 

Sure it is still threatening them - but it is not an "In your Face" type display.    She could have even said that she was not threatening them, just making them aware of the possibilities.   

 

 

 

I also can't see any way that the Caemen Blackmailing of people  - is "acting with integrety" as you put it.

 

 

But seriously - all this is very subjective.  If you want to view her as "Gods guift to Man" go ahead.    Myself, I see her as more as a "Necessary evil".    With a little "e".

[Guest cw]

Threatining to have an army invade isn't an in your face strategy?

 

Cadsuane was born and raised in Far Madding so she knew better than anyone what would and wouldn't work.  She also knew that Far Madding spent the last 3000 years telling Aes Sedai to take a hike.  People that set in there ways aren't going to change quickly without a serious shock.  You'd be looking at days if not weeks to try and negotiate with them.  Time that, for all Cadsuane knew, they didn't have.  Rand certainly wouldn't have managed to last that long.  Min would have been sensing his distress.  Cadsuane chose the option that would see him freed the fastest.

[Luckers]

I can't see any way that directly Threatening people in FM with the Power which they have extreem fear of - is "acting with integrety" as you put it.    Regardless that she felt bad about it afterward.    I hear a lot of murderers have regrets afterwards as well.   

 

You don't think that acting against people that are endangering the furture of EVERYTHING and still having the decency to feel bad about the destruction caused is a sign of integrity?

 

I personally think that if she had tried a little harder to explain the realities to the Council that they would have given in.  "Yes the WT wants this man and the BT wants this man - do you really want a fight between these two groups on your doorstep?    You do realize that single channelers raised mountains and moved oceans during the Breaking?    I wounder what a war of channelers would do here?    Of course it will probably not come to that here, these Ash'amen are very loyal to this man and know how to Travel, they could probably have his large army here within an hour or two.    Much faster than Elida."

 

Elaida. And you in some way think threatening them with a military invasion is different to threatening them with a One Power based attack? Seriously, what is the difference--other than that Cadsuane's method was immediately effective?

 

I sincerely and completely disagree with you here. I think Cadsuane's method completely avoided the building of ongoing unpleasentness.

 

Sure it is still threatening them - but it is not an "In your Face" type display.    She could have even said that she was not threatening them, just making them aware of the possibilities.   

 

A) I don't much see why she'd want to, considering her method would be much more effective. Or why thats a point against her.

 

B) your path could lead to an actual confrontation. People will hold to their own unless forced not to.

 

I also can't see any way that the Caemen Blackmailing of people  - is "acting with integrety" as you put it.

 

What is Caemen?

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

This is when it gets annoying, when people go off topic and start putting massive posts

[Christiana]

Going back to the topic of this thread...

 

Laughter and tears is probably an analogy for emotions in general.  Rand, and all the male channelers, feed all their emotions into a flame in order to seize the power and control it.  Doing this often enough could dull your emotions out, desensitize a person to reality. 

Rand and the other Ashaman are working on saving the world.  They sure don't want to forget why it's worth saving, thus the need to remember emotions (laughter and tears).

Teaching Rand and the other Ashaman's laughter and tears again could just be a way of saying that they need to feel emotions again because they, as a group, have forgotten them.  When all hell breaks loose, they are going to need to remember why they don't want to go over to the dark one and why remaking the world in his image would really suck.     

[Guest cw]

There is nothing that indicates the Asha'men in general have a problem with emotions.  We have a few that are exceedingly arrogant, but you get the same thing with Aes Sedai.  Most of the Asha'man appear quite normal in that regard.

[wvlr]

There is nothing that indicates the Asha'men in general have a problem with emotions.  We have a few that are exceedingly arrogant, but you get the same thing with Aes Sedai.  Most of the Asha'man appear quite normal in that regard.

 

I agree with the exception of Taim and his "Inner Group"

 

The others just seem very wary of AS - for good reason - and somewhat "aware" of the public stigma that they wear because of all the years that Male Channelers were Feared and Reviled.

 

It is a complicated issue because most people in the WoT world fear them intensly and would visably shun them as soon as they knew what they were.    So the Ash'amen would naturally tend to be withdrawn and wary of regular people and seek relationships only within their own kind.    That kind of behavior would result in people distrusting them even more.