"so called aiel"

[flippinaces]

To all the supporters of the taimandred theory, my heart goes out to you.  i was once a supporter of this theory and have devoted two re-reads in search of evidence both for and against.  Now however, the biggest piece of supporting evidence is about to be blown to pieces:

 

Opinion - Taim referred to Rands followers as "so-called Aiel" supports the notion that he's from the age of legends, as only Forsaken have referred to them in that manner.

 

Fact - Aiel means dedicated in the old tongue.

Fact - Taim was contextually speaking of who Rand could count on to watch his back as a pitch for recruitment trips for the Black Tower when he made the comment.

 

Is it not therefore likely, or at least possible, that Taim could be questioning the Aiel's dedication to Rand instead of making a questionable reference to the way Aiel were in the age of legends with the comment:

 

"Those who fail, I'll send on to Caemlyn.  It's time you started raising an army of your own instead of depending on others.  Bashere could change his mind; He will if Queen Tenobia tells him to. And who can know what these so called Aiel will do.

 

Sorry Taimandred fans.

 

 

[Luckers]

This was settled by RJ himself some time since. Taim is not Demandred.

[flippinaces]

And yet some people still cling to the theory, thinking that RJ changed his mind because of everyone jumping on the taimandred bandwagon.  This post was directed at the die-hard taimandred supporters, not the people who never believed it in the first place, or the people who have moved on to Taim'lal, which i'll be fully disecting after my latest re-read, which i'm 8/11 finished.

[Luckers]

Champ, I was a die-hard Taimandred supporter, and I've certainly not moved on to the silly thought that he's Be'lal.

 

Irrespective, the theory is dead. RJ's clarification killed it.

[Guest cw]

The "so called Aiel" actually distances Taim from the Forsaken as it is not the attitude held by them.  Inherrent in the statement is doubt concerning who the Aiel really are.  That does not fit with the only time we get a Forsaken thinking about them.  Rather than doubt, what we see is acceptance that they are Aiel but amazement they could change so much.

 

The only people who doubt they are Aiel are those who are expecting 12 foot tall illiterate savages.

[Asgard Thorin]

The "so called Aiel" actually distances Taim from the Forsaken as it is not the attitude held by them.  Inherrent in the statement is doubt concerning who the Aiel really are.  That does not fit with the only time we get a Forsaken thinking about them.  Rather than doubt, what we see is acceptance that they are Aiel but amazement they could change so much.

 

The only people who doubt they are Aiel are those who are expecting 12 foot tall illiterate savages.

 

I still don't entirely agree with that angle, cw, but I guess it's possible. flippinaces, other than the word of RJ, which some readers will never encounter, not knowing where to look online, the best evidence against Taimandred is in book 9 With the Choedan Kal. There Demandred sees Flinn and does not recognize him. Any Forsaken masquerading at the Black Tower before Dumai's Wells should have recognized him.

[safwd]

I was a big supporter of Taimodred and was until RJ said no.

If that would not have happened your "So called Aiel" theory would not have swayed me flippinaces. Taim would still have just called them Aiel, not so called Aiel. He had no reason at all to say that, why would he refer to them as so called Aiel just because he did not think Rand could trust them. As far as he should know, they are Aiel, so so called does not fit.

 

Now i dont think he is Belal either. I think Belal is toast but we shall see.

I am of the opinion now, like many, that Taim is under the thumb of one of the Forsaken, Moriden or Demodred (i have butchered the names and for that i am sorry).

No worrys though, Logain is going to kill him good.

 

[Luckers]

Nah Taim has been raised Chosen, and Logain will drive him out, not kill him. The Dark has few enough channelers as is.

[flippinaces]

I was a big supporter of Taimodred and was until RJ said no.

If that would not have happened your "So called Aiel" theory would not have swayed me flippinaces. Taim would still have just called them Aiel, not so called Aiel. He had no reason at all to say that, why would he refer to them as so called Aiel just because he did not think Rand could trust them. As far as he should know, they are Aiel, so so called does not fit.

 

Now i dont think he is Belal either. I think Belal is toast but we shall see.

I am of the opinion now, like many, that Taim is under the thumb of one of the Forsaken, Moriden or Demodred (i have butchered the names and for that i am sorry).

No worrys though, Logain is going to kill him good.

 

 

BECAUSE he didn't think that Rand could trust them.  Aiel means dedicated in the old tongue.  If you'll just read what you just wrote, only instead of the word "Aiel" use the word "Dedicated", you will see why it DOES fit.

[Guest Dreadlord]

When does Taim first call them "so-called Aiel?" Is it after the Black Tower ranks are formed? If its after, then he would be saying the so-called bit because Aiel means dedicated, and there is a Black Tower rank called Dedicated as you all know.

 

I really wish people would let the idea of Taim being Forsaken in disguise pass. RJ confirmed it, and Taim was about before Bel'al died.

[safwd]

 

 

BECAUSE he didn't think that Rand could trust them.  Aiel means dedicated in the old tongue.  If you'll just read what you just wrote, only instead of the word "Aiel" use the word "Dedicated", you will see why it DOES fit.

 

Ya, i figured out exactly what you were saying later. I guess he could have meant "So called dedicated" but i still think he was referering to them not really being Aiel.

But then your idea actually makes alot of sense. I doubt whichever forsaken Taim is working for worried about giving him a history on what the Aiel really were.

I feel myself being swayed, but im not all the way there yet.

[safwd]

Nah Taim has been raised Chosen, and Logain will drive him out, not kill him. The Dark has few enough channelers as is.

 

Your probably right Luckers. I guess Taim will just have to die at the last battle. And hopefully he will get killed by a mere Soldier blasting him. That might deflate his head a bit.

[Samakain]

I do think Taim is any of the existing forsaken, honestly, the character we receive is waaay to self important for it to just be a tack on persona. Of course, i personally think the most likely situation is he found the one way to keep clear of the taint that was available before my almighty al-F&$@ing-Thor did his little trick in book 10. He sold out, why else would we teach others? have any other male channelers who experienced the taint tried that? did they hate someone that much?

 

 

[Asgard Thorin]

When does Taim first call them "so-called Aiel?" Is it after the Black Tower ranks are formed? If its after, then he would be saying the so-called bit because Aiel means dedicated, and there is a Black Tower rank called Dedicated as you all know.

 

I really wish people would let the idea of Taim being Forsaken in disguise pass. RJ confirmed it, and Taim was about before Bel'al died.

 

No, Dreadlord. He called them "so-called" at the very beginning, the first time we met him, right after Rand had delivered him to "the farm" as it was still called then. I believe it was after Flinn had tested, but before anything else(I think it was that early-let me check)

 

Scratch all that. It was before Rand named them Ashaman, but it was in the second meeting between Rand and Taim (book 6 chptr Lessons and Teachers) right after Rand is bonded by Alanna. He goes there to warn Taim to stay away from them, and he gives his standing order that no Aes Sedai is to be harmed "Do not fire unless fired upon." But it was before the Ranking of the Ashaman, before their naming in fact. Nice point though, pointing out that Taim might have been playing on words

[aussie_ashaman123]

Your probably right Luckers. I guess Taim will just have to die at the last battle. And hopefully he will get killed by a mere Soldier blasting him. That might deflate his head a bit.

 

Not a Soldier, some farmboy with a sword, thats true irony concidering his disdain for mundane weapons. Another fact that points to Taim not being Demandred is that disdain for swords, im sure demandred was a very expert sword wielder.

[Luckers]

Actually Demandred specifies himself that he was not a very good warrior in Winter's Heart during his fight with Damer Flin. He said he was a general not a soldier.

[Tyrell]

It's Be'lal that was the swordsman (Paraphrase Be'lal : "we took that game men called swords, and learned to kill").

[Asgard Thorin]

It's Be'lal that was the swordsman (Paraphrase Be'lal : "we took that game men called swords, and learned to kill").

 

Yes and that was one of the arguments for Taim having been a mask for a Forsaken. One can, depending on point of view, see irony in Taim's contempt for blades

[Luckers]

How so?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Do people really believe that Taim is Forsaken still?

[Luckers]

I very much believe that he has been raised Forsaken, but like you i see nothing to sustain him being one of the pre-existing Forsaken--and I see a collosal amount against it.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I think Taim is actually Alivia in disguise. 

 

it's all about plot twists that you didn't see coming.

 

And I still think Bela is a key to the Last Battle.  maybe she's a living ter'angreal.

[Luckers]

I think Bela is... wait for it... a horse.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Bela? A horse? Sounds like you're chatting out of the wrong hole Luckers

[Luckers]

I do that sometimes. I blame my upbringing.