Taim = Demandred

[wvlr]

People want to hate Taim so they aren't going to see anything but an evil bastard.  Even Taim's knowledge of that quote can be explained through very mundane means

 

cw that is an interesting theory.    Offhand I can't think of any other way to explain his comments:

 

-  "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule"

-  "So Called Asedi"

-  "So called Ariel"

 

but if you would give me a link to where you laid it all out I would be willing to read it with an open mind.

[Guest cw]

Just search through some of the old Taim threads.  Either here or in the structured.  You will find them soon enough.  The structured forum contains one solely dedicated to the argument.

 

From the BWB:

The Feast of Fools

Celebrated in Tammaz (in Arad Doman and the Borderlands) or Saven (everywhere else), the exact day varying according to locality.  A day in which all order is deliberately inverted; the high perform low tasks (running errands, serving at table, etc.) while the low do no work and give orders to their usual superiors.  In many villages and towns the most foolish person is given a title such as Lord/Lady of Unreason/Misrule/Chaos or King/Queen of Fools.  Not an honor sought, but for that one day everyone has to obey whatever orders, however foolish, are given by the chosen one.  (Called the Festival of Unreason in Saldaea; the Festival of Fools in Kandor; Foolday in Baerlon and the Two Rivers.) Note:  In Tear, Illian, and the souther half of Altara, the time between the Feast of Abram and the Feast of Fools is considered the most propitious for a wedding.

 

The phrase isn't something unknown in the Third Age.  Odds are good that the Dark One borrowed it from the Third Age.  It is also a coloquialism.  As a result it is not strange that one person could know it while another never even heard of it before.  There are many ways Taim could have learned it.  One obvious one is that he it up from the Darkfriends that do infest his henchmen.  The same Darkfriends that, if I am correct, are sitting there, stroking Taim's ego and playing the arrogant jerk for the fool he is.  Taim is definitely the sort that would like hearing phrases like, "M'hael, someone in your position really needs a palace."  Or, "M'hael, what do you think of this sigil, doesn't it just speak of strength and power."

 

The Guardians balance the Servants.

 

There are three factions in each.  One lead by a good guy, one by a bad guy, one sitting on the fence.  Logain balances Egwene.  Taim balances Elaida.  In each case, the third group has no known leader.  The only apparent difference is that we know Elaida is not Black Ajah because of her PoVs.  If it wasn't for those, we would think she was Black Ajah rather than simply being manipulated by them.  Well, I don't buy that Taim is Black, so that really isn't a difference either.

 

Taim being Black throws things out of balance.  Taim being a dupe brings things back into balance.

 

Anyway, I'm not going to bother saying more.  It isn't worth the effort.

[wvlr]

That is an interesting angle.

 

Sorry I don't generally go into the Structured Forums.    I just don't have the time at work.    I barely have time to properly watch this General WoT Discussion.    Just on my breaks at work.    That is why most my posts are so short.

 

I would be glad for this or something else unexpected to come of Taim because as stated in the first post of this thread I firmly believe that RJ made a little mistake and had to come up with a different solution.  Maybe the Be'lal one maybe your's.

 

I just hope it is good, because Taim sure has me puzzeled and even all of RJ's comments on the subject just don't seem to fit together correctly.

 

I wish he had just said RAFO instead of saying anything because at least that response would not be adding just another convoluted turn to the Maze.

 

Does anyone have a list of all of RJs Taim related comments with dates and correlation to Book release dates?    I would love to see something like that.  It probably exists on some long buried T/D thread.

[Majsju]

 

I disagree.  There will be a revelation about Taim alright, I have no issues with that.  It is the content of the revelation that I disagree with.  I have never agreed with Taim being a Darkfriend.  I'm not going to bother rehashing all the arguments why he isn't though as I know from past experience it won't do any good.  I just hope Jordan's notes were complete enough to allow what I have long expected was a planned one time PoV from Taim.

 

I can agree with parts of it. I think it is very possible that Taim was not originally a DF, and that he even honestly believed for a while he was the Dragon Reborn. Once he got defeated, and he found out about Rand, he hoped to achieve some glory by fighting side by side with the Dragon Reborn, just as he says in LOC. But when Rand puts him in a very different place, he becomes ripe for plucking. Sort of the Thord Age equivallent to Demandred, both men who first walked in the light, but out of jealousy and strive for glory turned to the shadow.

 

I can not believe taim would be anything but a DF now. Especially if you consider the balance. The light has found quite a bunch of strong channelers lately. If we leave taim out, the shadows strongest card from the Third Age is Alviarin, and she seems to be headed out of the story. It just does not make sense that the shadow would not be able to find at least one really strong channeler.

[Tyrell]

Well.. we don't know for sure, there are a few Darkfriend Sul'Dam, and there are certainly strong Damane, unless Alivia is an oddity. By the way can a Sul'Dam wear two bracelets at once? Double the channelers working for the dark per dark Sul'Dam. We don't know about the strengths of the Wise Ones and Windfinders either, and if many of them are Darkfriends. Also we have the case of Aiel men who can channel, sent to die in the blight, I can see atleast a few of them turning up again working for the Shadow, although unless the Shadow left 13 women channelers and Myrddraal sitting on the blight boarder north of the Aiel Waste I don't think the number will be that significant.

 

But on the whole, I agree that the Shadow does seem to be lacking in terms of Power. Which is why I'm fond of thinking that Taim knows exactly where a certain Fat Man Angreal is located.

[Majsju]

From KOD ewe know that very few sul'dam become DF. We also know that a sul'dam can wear two bracelets at once, Tuon does it.

 

Even if the shadow managed to scoop up a surprisingly large number of what you just mentioned, there is one thing lacking: a strong channeler we are actually familiar with. Taim excluded, the nastiest Third Age channeler with the shadow we know is Alviarin, and she just does not seem that much of a threat anymore.

[Darth_Andrea]

From KOD ewe know that very few sul'dam become DF. We also know that a sul'dam can wear two bracelets at once, Tuon does it.

 

Even if the shadow managed to scoop up a surprisingly large number of what you just mentioned, there is one thing lacking: a strong channeler we are actually familiar with. Taim excluded, the nastiest Third Age channeler with the shadow we know is Alviarin, and she just does not seem that much of a threat anymore.

 

True she dosen't appear to be much of a threat anymore. But the most dangerous enemys are those that seem defeated and have little left to lose. So I wouldn't count Alviarin out just yet, she has something planned and unless I'm mistaken it involves Egwene in some way. Alviarin approached her too often near the end of KoD.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]       

[aevogt]

What clinched it for me was in WH ch 22.  Just before being killed by Fain, Kisman, a known DF, thinks about orders to kill Rand from Taim as well as Demandred, with the latter ordering it kept secret from the former.

 

That means Taim and Demandred must be two different people.

 

The order to kill Rand from Taim to a known DF is fairly damning evidence that Taim is a DF himself, although, he could just be power hungry, trying to kill Rnad to be the M'Hael in truth, and unknowingly using as DF to do the job.  But that's a bit of a stretch.

[Majsju]

True she dosen't appear to be much of a threat anymore. But the most dangerous enemys are those that seem defeated and have little left to lose. So I wouldn't count Alviarin out just yet, she has something planned and unless I'm mistaken it involves Egwene in some way. Alviarin approached her too often near the end of KoD.

 

Of course Alviarin is not toothless. But one thing, that I should perhaps have included from the beginning. Alviarin is from the "old" Aes sedai, where Moiraine and Siuan were the strongest. Alviarin standing beneath them. With what has been added to the lights forces since TEOTW, even if we just include female channelers, Moiraine and old-strength Siuan is not that impressive anymore. Of course, there could be BA stronger than Alviarin, but they would still stand beneath Moiraine.

 

Having Taim be a Third Age addition to the shadows ranks would bring, not exactly balance, but at least a wee bit of fairness.