Broken Crown

[BURN]

I'm new here, but I recently read back through the series, and wanted to see what people thought about the Broken Crown of Saldea. I searched through old threads, and a few mentioned the Broken Crown, but many of them touched on other subjects and/or were old. I apologize if a new thread was not warranted. This post will likely be lengthy, but worth the read, I hope.

 

The Broken Crown has always bugged me, and reading back through the books reminded me of it. I decided to dig around and try to figure out what it meant. We know RJ liked to draw from myth, historical civilizations, etc, so I decided that would be a good starting point. RJ said that Saldea was based on peoples surrounding the Black Sea. So I read through the histories of some of the surrounding peoples. I found it very interesting. Here is some of the things I found, I hope others find them interesting as well.

 

There is in fact, a broken crown associated with a Black Sea people group. Its called the Holy Crown of Hungary (which is, what do you know, broken). If you take the time to read about it, it bears many resemblances to the Broken Crown of Saldea. Of particular note is the associated "Doctrine of the Holy Crown". The doctrine of the Holy Crown, among other things (drawing from Wikipedia, since it had the most succinct summation):

 

1. Although there is a physical Holy Crown (broken crown) the Holy Crown is actually a person (the ruler).

 

2. The body of the Holy Crown is the body of the country.

 

3. The members of the Holy Crown are the Citizens of the Crown's lands.

 

4. The Holy Crown is the source of all powers and rights.

 

5. The Holy Crown is superior to the ruler. The ruler rules in the name of the Crown.

 

Doesn't sound like much of a gig does it? A lot of responsibility. Which would explain why Aes Sedai and others have said Perrin does not understand what marrying Faile "means".

 

What I found more interesting though was the associated concept of "personal union" which is embodied in the Holy Crown.

 

I didn't know what a "personal union" was, so I looked it up, and here is the definition:

 

"A personal union is a relationship of two or more entities that are considered separate, sovereign states, which, through established law, share the same person as their respective head of state. It is not to be confused with a federation, which internationally is considered as a single state."

 

Sounds very much like Alliandre and Ghealdan, no?

 

Let me know what you think. There are other countries tied in with Perrin in the WoT, but in the interests of brevity, I won't drone on about them unless there is interest in hearing them. There is quite a bit of interesting potential links to Perrin of Arad Doman, Tarabon, and at least part of Amadacia. Also the Black Hills.

 

Some other things of note involved historical tribes which ultimately formed into Hungary, Bulgaria, etc. And their mythology. Perrin's Wolf mythology likely has ties to Saldea.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

"A personal union is a relationship of two or more entities that are considered separate, sovereign states, which, through established law, share the same person as their respective head of state.

 

Think Queen of England, who is head of state of The United Kingdom, Canada and Australia (for the time being), etc.

 

Quote:

 

Doctrine of the Holy Crown".

 

This is the Universal concept of Medeivl Kingship. One annointed (in the religous ssense) to lead. He represents the nation as a whole. Think of it in Cristian religous terms Where Jesus is the leader and the church (christians) are collectively his bride.

 

I believe a more relevent background for the "broken crown" comes from the Romans, to wit:

 

CORONA OBSIDIONALIS. Among the honorary crowns bestowed by the Romans for military achievements, the most difficult of attainment, and the one which conferred the highest honour, was the corona obsidionalis, presented by a beleaguered army after its liberation to the general who broke up the siege. It was made of grass, or weeds and wild flowers Plin. H.N. xxii.7), thence called corona graminea Plin. H.N. xxii.4), and graminea obsidionalis (Liv. ii.37), gathered from the spot on which the beleaguered army had been enclosed (Plin. l.c.; Aul. Gell. v.6; Festus, s.v. Obsidionalis); in allusion to a custom of the early ages, in which the vanquished party in a contest of strength or agility plucked a handful of grass from the meadow where the struggle took place, and gave it to his opponent as a token of victory (Aul. Gell. v.6; Plin. H.N. xxii.4; Festus, s.v. Obsidionalis; Serv. ad Virg. Aen. viii.128). A list of the few Romans who gained this honour is given by Pliny Plin. H.N. xxii.4, 5).

 

 

William Smith, A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, John Murray, London, 1875. p 360.

 

Thus the Monarch of Saldea has a "broken crown" as he/she has responsibility to meeat and dispurse raids by Trolics and other Shadoe spawn.

[Guest cw]

Doesn't sound like much of a gig does it? A lot of responsibility. Which would explain why Aes Sedai and others have said Perrin does not understand what marrying Faile "means".

 

Personally, I'm a fan of a simple explanation when one is available.  Perrin had no idea what marrying Faile meant because, when he married her, he had no idea who she was.  He didn't have the slightest clue that he was marrying someone who is in the direct line of succession to a throne.  Without that knowledge, it was impossible for him to know what marrying her meant.

[Talyn Al Carn]

I wish I was as good as finding information as you people.

[DuDZiK]

Think Queen of England, who is head of state of The United Kingdom, Canada and Australia (for the time being), etc.

 

Unless I have been lied to my entire life, the Queen of England is not the head of state in Canada.

[Guest cw]

Unless things changed since I moved away about 10 years ago, the Governor General still acts as the Queen's representative and signs laws in her name.  Even though the Queen has no true authority in Canada, she would stil be the technical head of state.

[Tyrell]

Think Queen of England, who is head of state of The United Kingdom, Canada and Australia (for the time being), etc.

 

Unless I have been lied to my entire life, the Queen of England is not the head of state in Canada.

 

In addition to the United Kingdom, Elizabeth II is also Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, and Saint Kitts and Nevis, in each of which she is represented by a Governor-General. The 16 countries of which she is Queen are known as Commonwealth realms, and their combined population, including dependencies is over 129 million. In theory her powers are vast; in practice (and in accordance with convention) she herself never intervenes in political matters. In the United Kingdom at least, however, she is known to take an active behind-the-scenes interest in the affairs of state, meeting regularly to establish a working relationship with her government ministers.

Elizabeth II holds a variety of other positions, among them Head of the Commonwealth, Supreme Governor of the Church of England, Duke of Normandy, Lord of Mann, and Paramount Chief of Fiji.

[CUBAREY]

Jeez, Dudzik, were you absent on the day in fourth grade civics class where the fact that Queen Elizabeth II is still technically the monarch of Canada (thus head of state) was discussed? I know it has very little practical importance, but still! :'(

 

 

 

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Quote:

 

"A personal union is a relationship of two or more entities that are considered separate, sovereign states, which, through established law, share the same person as their respective head of state.

 

Think Queen of England, who is head of state of The United Kingdom, Canada and Australia (for the time being), etc.

 

Quote:

 

Doctrine of the Holy Crown".

 

This is the Universal concept of Medeivl Kingship. One annointed (in the religous ssense) to lead. He represents the nation as a whole. Think of it in Cristian religous terms Where Jesus is the leader and the church (christians) are collectively his bride.

 

I believe a more relevent background for the "broken crown" comes from the Romans, to wit:

 

CORONA OBSIDIONALIS. Among the honorary crowns bestowed by the Romans for military achievements, the most difficult of attainment, and the one which conferred the highest honour, was the corona obsidionalis, presented by a beleaguered army after its liberation to the general who broke up the siege. It was made of grass, or weeds and wild flowers Plin. H.N. xxii.7), thence called corona graminea Plin. H.N. xxii.4), and graminea obsidionalis (Liv. ii.37), gathered from the spot on which the beleaguered army had been enclosed (Plin. l.c.; Aul. Gell. v.6; Festus, s.v. Obsidionalis); in allusion to a custom of the early ages, in which the vanquished party in a contest of strength or agility plucked a handful of grass from the meadow where the struggle took place, and gave it to his opponent as a token of victory (Aul. Gell. v.6; Plin. H.N. xxii.4; Festus, s.v. Obsidionalis; Serv. ad Virg. Aen. viii.128). A list of the few Romans who gained this honour is given by Pliny Plin. H.N. xxii.4, 5).

 

 

William Smith, A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, John Murray, London, 1875. p 360.

 

Thus the Monarch of Saldea has a "broken crown" as he/she has responsibility to meeat and dispurse raids by Trolics and other Shadoe spawn.

 

Hi,

 

I'm a noob here, but not to the books.

 

I don't see the relevance of the Roman award mentioned above. Unless I've missed something, it doesn't mention a broken crown, or the breaking of a crown.

 

Additionally, surely all the rulers of the borderlands have a duty to repel trolloc raids? It's an 'oft repeated theme that "the borderlanders job is never done", etc., etc.

 

The personal union point from the original post is an interesting one. It does seem a little strange that Perrin is the liege lord of two deposed monarchs. I'll think we'll find that he has a major role to play in the Borderlands before the end of the series.

 

I also wonder about the Aes Sedai comments about Perrin not knowing what he got himself into. I think it's a little below them to keep harping on about being married to Faile unless there is something significant about her position/bloodline. Granted, she's the Marshal General of Saldea's daughter, cousin of the queen etc., but that isn't enough for me.

 

I think there'll be something more to Faile/the crown in the last book.

[The Lost One]

Jeez, Dudzik, were you absent on the day in fourth grade civics class where the fact that Queen Elizabeth II is still technically the monarch of Canada (thus head of state) was discussed? I know it has very little practical importance, but still! :'(

 

 

I must have been absent that day too. 

[aevogt]

Doesn't sound like much of a gig does it? A lot of responsibility. Which would explain why Aes Sedai and others have said Perrin does not understand what marrying Faile "means".

 

Personally, I'm a fan of a simple explanation when one is available.  Perrin had no idea what marrying Faile meant because, when he married her, he had no idea who she was.  He didn't have the slightest clue that he was marrying someone who is in the direct line of succession to a throne.  Without that knowledge, it was impossible for him to know what marrying her meant.

 

 

IN TSR, Faile told Perrin who her father was while they were with the Tinkers, which was before he married her.  She didn't tell him that she, as eldest child and heir, was second behind Davram for the throne of Saldea if Tenobia dies, which I think is likely. 

 

I like your theory Burn.  It makes as much sense as anything.  RJ was pretty damn smart and threw that kind of thing into this series like candy.  To say the easiest explanation is the best one in this story is to miss a lot of the really subtle things he put in.

 

Lanfear's disguise : Selene

Greek Mythology : Selene is a Moon Goddess = Lanfear's Wolf name Moonhunter

 

In post-Renaissance art, Selene is generally depicted as a BEAUTIFUL WOMAN with a PALE FACE, riding a SILVER chariot.  Wikipedia  (emphasis by me)

 

I especially liked the Angreal of a woman seated in something like a yoga position.

 

[Razor]

I do not see the correlation with the Roman Grass crown either , but if you are a fan of historical fiction and want to learn more about the Roman Grass Crown there is a great series about Rome...First Man of Rome (about Gaius Marcus Aurelius, IIRC) The Grass Crown (His follower Lucius Sulla) followed by 2-3 books dealing largely with Caesar.  If you are interested in Roman politics, great descriptions of battles and military strategy, etc you will love the series.  It is written by colleen McCullough.  I think most Randland readers will like it because it is about similar things, politics, world domination, large scale battles, generals, everything except the magic.  It has a unique style that quotes letters from historical figures, Caesar, Pompey the Great, Cicero, Sulla, Aurelius, etc and then the chapter fills in the details.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Conn Iggulden's Emperor series (I think it's a trilogy) is also worth a look.

 

It follows Julius Ceasar from childhood to death, they're a good read.