lanfear weakened

[Luckers]

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Well, he didn't really--he offered no payment.

No, he didn't make terms first, they took what they could get from the encounter, which was apparently revenge...Look, Birgette flat out says that the finns were untrustworthy, so I don't see how you are going to prove that the finns would only hold Moraine if they felt she had commited some wrong, it is perfectly likely that they held her just to be capricious.

 

What? I only said that your comment that Mat had done nothing wrong and they tried to hang him is not evidence of their untrustworthiness, because Mat had done something wrong--however you wish to phrase it, he hadn't offered payment which was clearly required and as such their reactions are not bound to any specific mode, and thus no trust was broken.

 

Indeed, you could say the fact that they still granted his wishes despite him not fulfilling his side indicates that they do feel a sense of appropriate behaviour, and stick to it.

 

And whilst i never mentioned anything about Moiraine being held because they are capricious--which is not really an issue at all. If they did, they did--i will say now that just because something isn't impossible doesn't make it likely. Moiraine broke something they value. They subsequently 'held' Moiraine. Logic dictates that the two are related.

 

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Who suggested they want the death of those they deal with? I mean it obviously happens, but its clearly not a specific agenda.

 

I don't really know how you go about making a harness out of a person's skin without killing them, but Okay, I'll play along.  Just what do the finns want, and why wouldn't they want it from Moraine, deal or no?

 

What? I'm sorry are you actually reading what I wrote? You said...

 

And yet if the finns ultimate goal, the thing they get from the bargain, is the death of their partners, why would they hold Moraine?  Why isn't Moraine dead now?  It certainly does imply that the finns have a reason to keep her alive and as such it is certainly related and pertinant to the discussion.

 

To which I replied, quite clearly, that whilst they quite clearly do kill people on the occasion, it is not their main agenda. Not their ultimate goal.

 

To which you ask me how they make a harness out of skin without killing... I'm really confused here cloglord. And how did any of that lead into your question?

 

 

But in response to it... what do they want from Moiraine? Maybe nothing. Why did they give Mat wishes if he didn't pay? It seems they do have codes of conduct that govern their behaviour, and abide by such. You can commit some pretty severe crimes without earning the death penalty.

 

 

Uhmm, no they don't.  Lanfear say she was held, but not why, and Moraine's letter doesn't mention the Finns at all except to mantion the game of snakes and foxes.  She give no clues as to where she is held, nor the circumstances under which she is trapped/endangered.  She only says that she is not dead as everyone would have her believe, and that Mat knows where she is, and that it would be unwise to attempt a rescue except under specific circumstances.  A kitten can be trapped in a tree, it doesn't mean that the tree is holding the kitten as punishment.

 

Reread the letter champ. It's entire mode is directed at the issue of the threat of the Finns.

 

No, I'm saying that the finns are holding her because they are capricious, and that her imprisonment gains them something.  I'm also saying that there is circumstantial evidence that holding people against their will is something of a pattern for the finns, as told by the stories of Bili under the Hill.

 

So... what?

 

I mean, i think your wrong, but even if your not whats the significance?

[cloglord]

First of all the deal with Mat was a fully executed one.  They were not upset that he hadn't dictated terms, in fact they said that because he was unwise enough to forget to do so, they would determine the price themselves.  Services rendered, payment recieved.

 

Indeed, you could say the fact that they still granted his wishes despite him not fulfilling his side indicates that they do feel a sense of appropriate behaviour, and stick to it.

 

You could also say that the fact that they still granted his wishes despite having offered some ofense in not following the rules of the bargain indicates that the finns would do the same in similar circumstances, say the case of Moraine perhaps?

 

And whilst i never mentioned anything about Moiraine being held because they are capricious--which is not really an issue at all. If they did, they did--i will say now that just because something isn't impossible doesn't make it likely. Moiraine broke something they value. They subsequently 'held' Moiraine. Logic dictates that the two are related.

 

No it doesn't.  A doe not neccesarily follow B, especially when we are talking about a group of alien beings known for not being logical.  We know that they are capricious, we know that ther wolrd doesn't follow the same logical rules that you are tryin to apply.  We also know that they aren't likely to do something unless they get something from it, from that point of view it doesn't make sense for them to hold her as punishment, especially since we know that they are perfectly happy to kill anyone who crosses them.

 

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And yet if the finns ultimate goal, the thing they get from the bargain, is the death of their partners, why would they hold Moraine?  Why isn't Moraine dead now?  It certainly does imply that the finns have a reason to keep her alive and as such it is certainly related and pertinant to the discussion.

 

To which I replied, quite clearly, that whilst they quite clearly do kill people on the occasion, it is not their main agenda. Not their ultimate goal.

 

Did you read what it said?  I said "And yet..."  It was clearly a conditional statement.  It was with the purpose of getting to what the finns really want.  It appears that the finns do place some value on the death of their partners, it was the price they decided on for Mat, and it is ultimately what they did to Lanfear.  They also make a habit of skinning their victims and wearing them around, something that I think is pretty hard to do without killing the person.  And yet they have not done this to Moraine, despite the fact that it is very likely that she is held and is completely defenseless.  My question is, why isn't she dead?

 

Reread the letter champ. It's entire mode is directed at the issue of the threat of the Finns.

 

I did re-read the letter, buddy, and it doesn't say what you think it says.  Mat fills in all the details, Moraine doesn't mention, intimate, or suggest, anything about the nature of her captors except to warn them to remember the game of snakes and foxes.

 

So... what?

 

I mean, i think your wrong, but even if your not whats the significance?

 

It means that you can't use her captivity as proof that she is being punished, and you can't use it as evidence to back up your supposition that she was not given a chance to make a deal.  It also explains the difference in Lanfear's treatment and Moraine's.  I'm not trying to prove that she did make a deal, I don't know that.  I'm just pointing out that you can't prove that the finns didn't make a deal with her, at least not using her captivity as the proof of it.

[Darian]

if lanfear was healed i think then it must have been a man....because of the discrepancies of the differences of saidin and saidar...wasnt there a man that healed the aes sedai that rand stilled, and they noted that they haven't lost any strength.  In any case, Moridin could channel the dark one's own energy, so why couldn't lanfear, the one who freed the dark one, use that energy to free herself from that tower?

[elmis]

Nobody really knows what happened so it's pure speculation at best. What we know is that she is back in a new body, with less power, and mind trapped, and that the 'finns really don't care much for the Shadow. Doesn't even have to mean that she's been dead / recycled (unless RJ has answered on that). Three demands, three adverse effects, could be all 'finn work for all we know.

 

 

[JenLenaMom]

Doesn't even have to mean that she's been dead / recycled (unless RJ has answered on that).

 

Except that I don't think the 'Finns have power over a person's soul to recycle it, but the DO, we know, does.

[G.I.]

My theory on Lanfere weakened... she was severed and then killed.  Severd=lowered strength if healed by a woman.  Dead=different body.  For the record, I think she was killed and Moirainne was not becasue...of the poem that begins the Snakes and Foxes games "Music to dazzle, fire to blind, something (??)to strengthen, iron to bind".  Moirainne has a very musical quality to her voice that RJ has mentioned a lot.  I think she is "dazzling" the Elfin's, they are captivated by her and won't let her go because of it.  Lanfear, they didn't feel the need to keep - she's tainted by the shadow and can't 'dazzle' them like Moirainne can. 

[Majsju]

Except that I don't think the 'Finns have power over a person's soul to recycle it, but the DO, we know, does.

 

Correct, they don't. The finns can neither transmigrate nor hold a soul after death.

[elmis]

They can put memories into a persons head, why not change someones physical appearance? Randland's own foxy plastic surgeons. I'm not saying I believe that's what happened, but simply stating that we don't have enough facts to figure this one out yet.

 

Edit: Spelling, again. ;)

[JenLenaMom]

Because those memories (made of sensations)are part of the bargains they make with people who enter the doors.  They feed on them, and therefore have access to them.  A human soul on the other hand is a bit more ephemeral than the sensations they collect.

[elmis]

I'm not talking about any souls. Where have I mentioned souls? I'm talking about altering an existing body, and at any rate, I'm not even serious about the idea. I just used it as an example (however unlikely) of what could have happened.

[Luckers]

Thats a lot of alteration there Elmis. Cyndane is about as different from Lanfear as its possible to be--height, colouring, eyes, general weight.

 

The fact remains that there is one simple explanation that answers all of the oddities involved with the event. Lan's bond snapping, the Finns being able to hold two of Moiraine and Lanfears strength and ability, Lanfear's decrease in strength and her changed body. They were severed and Lanfear died.

 

All the others just seem to convaluted to me--involving abilities that we don't know exist and actions that make no sense based on the events.

[cloglord]

I agree.

 

THe most likely explaination is that she was stilled/burned out, killed/died, and then was tranmigrated and imperfectly healed by a woman.  We have actually seen all of these things in the scope of the books.