Why is Wheel of Time good?

[Jellybelly]

Can't say I agree with you. I found Tolkien to be much easier to read, both plot wise and language wise. In my opinion, Tolkien is secondary to Jordan is almost every way.

 

And some of the terms you use seem to be a bit unclear. I would say complexity is a result of an intelligent author.

[Jedimuppet]

Can't say I agree with you. I found Tolkien to be much easier to read' date=' both plot wise and language wise. In my opinion, Tolkien is secondary to Jordan is almost every way.

 

And some of the terms you use seem to be a bit unclear. I would say complexity is a result of an intelligent author.[/quote']

 

As a programmer, I see a great deal of difference, but que sera, sera.

 

I see Tolkien as a superior writer. Also, I wish RJ would be a little less shameless in his lifting of Middle Earth elements, but that's just me.

J

[Rodrik]

One of the faults in WoT I found was that it wasn't an intelligent read. It was just a lot of hack and slash without the depth of say' date=' Dune.[/quote']

 

Well I've read WoT and ASOIAF, they both have many plots that aren't spelled out. I wouldn't say ASOIAF is more complicated that WoT, if you think so you just need to read more carefully. Sure ASOIAF has questions like who are Jon's parents, who will be the three dragon riders etc., but WoT has just as many. Most Forsaken plot lines are barely shown directly and have to be figured out, theres many more Prophecies that can try to be explained etc. To say WoT is less intelligent means you either havn't read it or you totally missed the complexity of the series while you skimmed it.

 

And you can't expect the first 4 books, where the characters are mostly farm boys and such, to have as much intrigue as ASOIAF where the main characters are lords and kings, later in WoT there is an increase in politics and schemes.

 

There are lots of times that intrigue could've been used in the first 4 books. Like in the Amyrlin's PoV, the Seanchan, etc. The attempts at intrigue, such as Thom and the Game of Houses (Or whatever it's called...) are childish at best.

 

And in ASoIF GRRM doesn't just pose questions, he gives subtle things which can give you a good basis to answer them. Things like Ned never considering Jon his own son in his thoughts, and when he's in the Black Cell he doesn't think of Jon when he's thinking of his children, and the mentioned promise to Lyanna and other lil things give suspicion that he's actually the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Subtle things like Jon seeing an old man who is Barristan Selmy at the wall, because he went to check up on the last Targaryen he knew of, after being dismissed from the kingsguard.

[Jellybelly]

Sounds like a soap opera to me.

 

Anyway, JediMuppet, I can see where you are coming from as a programmer, I just do not think the comparison is good. As I see it, intelligent programming would mean making things work with as simple code as possible. The intelligence would go into making things as simple as possible. In a literary sense, I think it would take a more intelligent author to create complex tales, as compared to simple ones.

[rd2000]

Everyone borrows from Tolkein, he did kinda create fantasy writing. Trying to compare ASOIAF to WoT is ridiculous, aka "Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge" anyone who stoops to it is showing their lack of intelligence IMO. Both men are wonderful authors and both stories are the result of writing unique to each author's genius and style.

 

With that said, I believe that an open mind and patience are needed to fully enjoy RJ's WoT series. You haven't shown either.

[Jedimuppet]

Sounds like a soap opera to me.

 

Anyway' date=' JediMuppet, I can see where you are coming from as a programmer, I just do not think the comparison is good. As I see it, intelligent programming would mean making things work with as simple code as possible. The intelligence would go into making things as simple as possible. In a literary sense, I think it would take a more intelligent author to create complex tales, as compared to simple ones.[/quote']

 

You're entitled to that opinion, certainly. To me, it does seem as if he throws in moving parts just to throw in moving parts without necessarily doing much to advance the plot line. I don't think it's completely controversial to say that he's been stretching the story out for the last few books (KoD excluded; that was one of the best), and adding complexity without adding much in the way of depth.

 

That being said, I *do* enjoy the books, but I can't bring myself to call them great literary works. In fact, they're sort of a guilty pleasure light read sort of thing.

J

[Graendals favourite]

How was Thom's playing daes dae'mar childish, btw.. I take his action in the Stone was meant. He managed to kill both Carleon and get Tedosian out of the way with a simple letter: "Be wary. Your husband suspects." No dooubt that was alluding to some plot between Alteima and Carleon, which Tedosian then stopped. Alteima stopped Tedosian from having revenge on her by poisoning him, but then was later forced to exile when it was secured Tedosian would live after all. All three pretty much out of the way. I don't know whether Alteima's or Tedosian's House was stronger, but no doubt without Tedosian's support or death Alteima could not have been able to contest with Estanda, and without fleeing and Tedosian living after the murder attempt, no doubt she would have been the one to die.

 

It is not made a big issue however, since it only gives us a picture of what goes on inside the Tairen nobility.

[Mad Season]

There are lots of times that intrigue could've been used in the first 4 books. Like in the Amyrlin's PoV' date=' the Seanchan, etc. The attempts at intrigue, such as Thom and the Game of Houses (Or whatever it's called...) are childish at best.

 

And in ASoIF GRRM doesn't just pose questions, he gives subtle things which can give you a good basis to answer them. Things like Ned never considering Jon his own son in his thoughts, and when he's in the Black Cell he doesn't think of Jon when he's thinking of his children, and the mentioned promise to Lyanna and other lil things give suspicion that he's actually the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Subtle things like Jon seeing an old man who is Barristan Selmy at the wall, because he went to check up on the last Targaryen he knew of, after being dismissed from the kingsguard.[/quote']

Well the man at the wall had a gray beard and Barristan had a white one before and after that scene so I guess he dyed it and re-dyed it back. And either it hasn't become clear that Suian (the Amrylin) is a huge determining factor of the plot or you didn't read closesly enough. The Seanchan obviously aren't politically connected with the rest of Randland that early, so of course there aren't any politics between them yet.

 

Edit: fixed quote

[Jellybelly]

You're entitled to that opinion' date=' certainly. To me, it does seem as if he throws in moving parts just to throw in moving parts without necessarily doing much to advance the plot line. I don't think it's completely controversial to say that he's been stretching the story out for the last few books (KoD excluded; that was one of the best), and adding complexity without adding much in the way of depth.

 

That being said, I *do* enjoy the books, but I can't bring myself to call them great literary works. In fact, they're sort of a guilty pleasure light read sort of thing.

J[/quote']

 

Sure, you are entitled to that opinion, right back at you. I find it to be very far from my point of view, however. How can you call TWoT a guilty-read? A guilty read is to me bad, yet entertaining literature. Like the Animorphs books I took a break from heavier literature with when I was fourteen. And there is always the fact that a lot of people would consider reading ANY fantasy a guilty read, it is a genre that is looked down upon. The same goes for crime. Incidentally, much of what IS called great literature is far below RJ's skill, in my opinion. Dickens? Twain? Melville? George Bernard Shaw? I would consider a lot of what scholars has dubbed "great literature" simple.

[S i n k]

As a new reader myself, I think that Wheel of Time is a great series so far. I can't pinpoint why I think so, but I think that the things you said where bad, are some of the things I enjoy. I, for one, love how the author elaborates entirely too much. That is simply the best way to make the book feel more real. I think that thoroughly describing every point of the journey is a strong point.

[Guest Froix]

I think the NY Times got it right: Robert Jordan has come to dominate the world Tolkien began to reveal.

 

For Rodrik

 

I'll have to apologize for my friends here in DM. They apparently don't know your ways.

 

I'm sorry but no, we don't know the SONG.

 

Peace...

[heartsbane]

yea wuts the first book of song anyway?

[Jedimuppet]

You're entitled to that opinion' date=' certainly. To me, it does seem as if he throws in moving parts just to throw in moving parts without necessarily doing much to advance the plot line. I don't think it's completely controversial to say that he's been stretching the story out for the last few books (KoD excluded; that was one of the best), and adding complexity without adding much in the way of depth.

 

That being said, I *do* enjoy the books, but I can't bring myself to call them great literary works. In fact, they're sort of a guilty pleasure light read sort of thing.

J[/quote']

 

Sure, you are entitled to that opinion, right back at you. I find it to be very far from my point of view, however. How can you call TWoT a guilty-read? A guilty read is to me bad, yet entertaining literature. Like the Animorphs books I took a break from heavier literature with when I was fourteen. And there is always the fact that a lot of people would consider reading ANY fantasy a guilty read, it is a genre that is looked down upon. The same goes for crime. Incidentally, much of what IS called great literature is far below RJ's skill, in my opinion. Dickens? Twain? Melville? George Bernard Shaw? I would consider a lot of what scholars has dubbed "great literature" simple.

 

That's an interesting point that I think you'd have a hard time backing up in a lit class.

J

[Rodrik]

Everyone borrows from Tolkein' date=' he did kinda create fantasy writing. Trying to compare ASOIAF to WoT is ridiculous, aka "Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge" anyone who stoops to it is showing their lack of intelligence IMO. Both men are wonderful authors and both stories are the result of writing unique to each author's genius and style.

 

With that said, I believe that an open mind and patience are needed to fully enjoy RJ's WoT series. You haven't shown either.[/quote']

 

I read WoT with an open mind, and patience.

[Rodrik]

yea wuts the first book of song anyway?

 

Game of Thrones.

 

How was Thom's playing daes dae'mar childish' date=' btw.. I take his action in the Stone was meant. He managed to kill both Carleon and get Tedosian out of the way with a simple letter: "Be wary. Your husband suspects." No dooubt that was alluding to some plot between Alteima and Carleon, which Tedosian then stopped. Alteima stopped Tedosian from having revenge on her by poisoning him, but then was later forced to exile when it was secured Tedosian would live after all. All three pretty much out of the way. I don't know whether Alteima's or Tedosian's House was stronger, but no doubt without Tedosian's support or death Alteima could not have been able to contest with Estanda, and without fleeing and Tedosian living after the murder attempt, no doubt she would have been the one to die.

[/quote']

 

It was way too simple for me to consider it good intrigue.

 

For example: If he wrote the letter, but it didn't actually work because the two people actually had no problem with each other, but were working together and merely giving a charade that they weren't, and knew all of Thom's plans all along, due to spyglasses in the room. Then they faked the killing so it was thought the guy died, but in reality he is still alive. I'd consider that to be better intrigue. It could still be more complex.

[Cybertrolloc]

Certainly agreed that the Carhien portions of tGH were the weakest parts of that book. Many a groan inducing passage there.

 

But don't forget the weaknesses in ASoFaI as well. A big one: first read of Game of Thrones is the make or break. There's a heaping pile of names and hints of past events thrown at you in the first half to make your eyes glaze over (I stuck with it because it was well written, otherwise well plotted and I usually finish books). On a reread it all makes sense and reads a lot better when you can fit everything into context.

 

I find Martin's work more consistant as well: Jordan has made more than a few major changes to the way his world works (especially the power). I find Jordan's writing has improved over the course of the series (there are very good passages in the otherwise dreadful CoT), while his plotting and editting skills started to wane in parts of book 7, and especially in 8-10, somewhat improved KoD (book 11).

 

ASoFaI is certainly much darker in tone and contains many disturbing scenes. There are very few wholly good/noble characters out of that cast of 1000s after all (and these mostly noble--peasants have it very bad in Westeros). Those will put some off. There's really no character from WoT comparable to Littlefinger/Varys for scheming...

 

I still enjoy both, and rereads of both works highlight the amount of planning and foreshadowing in both series. I'd give the better writer accolade to Martin though, and am looking forward to AFfC in paperback this month (haven't read yet).

[Rodrik]

Certainly agreed that the Carhien portions of tGH were the weakest parts of that book. Many a groan inducing passage there.

 

But don't forget the weaknesses in ASoFaI as well. A big one: first read of Game of Thrones is the make or break. There's a heaping pile of names and hints of past events thrown at you in the first half to make your eyes glaze over (I stuck with it because it was well written' date=' otherwise well plotted and I usually finish books). On a reread it all makes sense and reads a lot better when you can fit everything into context.

 

I find Martin's work more consistant as well: Jordan has made more than a few major changes to the way his world works (especially the power). I find Jordan's writing has improved over the course of the series (there are very good passages in the otherwise dreadful CoT), while his plotting and editting skills started to wane in parts of book 7, and especially in 8-10, somewhat improved KoD (book 11).

 

ASoFaI is certainly much darker in tone and contains many disturbing scenes. There are very few wholly good/noble characters out of that cast of 1000s after all (and these mostly noble--peasants have it very bad in Westeros). Those will put some off. There's really no character from WoT comparable to Littlefinger/Varys for scheming...

 

I still enjoy both, and rereads of both works highlight the amount of planning and foreshadowing in both series. I'd give the better writer accolade to Martin though, and am looking forward to AFfC in paperback this month (haven't read yet).[/quote']

 

The stuff in GoT didn't confuse me in the least bit, but perhaps that's just me. But, yeah, so far I've seen nothing in WoT on scale with the Varys/Littlefinger level manipulation.

 

Hope you enjoy AFfC. It's a lil slower than the other books, and not as good, but the characters, dialogue, intrigue, etc. is all top notch still.

[Blade]

see and here's where it all comes down to a matter of opinion. Personally, I don't WANT that level of intrigue in a book I'm reading. Sure it's nice occasionally, but throughout the whole series? I'm just not into that kind of thing. I'd have to agree with a previous poster who said it all sounds like a big soap opera.

[Graendals favourite]

It was way too simple for me to consider it good intrigue.

 

For example: If he wrote the letter, but it didn't actually work because the two people actually had no problem with each other, but were working together and merely giving a charade that they weren't, and knew all of Thom's plans all along, due to spyglasses in the room. Then they faked the killing so it was thought the guy died, but in reality he is still alive. I'd consider that to be better intrigue. It could still be more complex.

 

I have to disagree with you a bit there, but of course it's a matter of taste. I understand your example in the context of aSoIaF, but in the context of Tairen nobility it's a bit off.

 

Well, I assume you didn't put effort into making it obey WoT rules. I take it these spyglasses have something to do with magic, while nobility in general cannot even channel, Tairens least of all. Moiraine did figure out Thom had been Morgase's bard and lover, a great player of daes dae'mar in Caemlyn, but it is doubtful the High Lords and Ladys would have considered him a player, at least on such short notice. There was skill involved for Thom to know the scheme should work. I'm sure Tedosian didn't have anything particular against Carleon, but when it became apparent he was scheming against him with his wife, he killed him all the same. Otherwise he might well have died. Thom also had to expect Alteima's reaction, to know she would be forced to try to remove his husband while making the death appear legitimately normal. Moiraine was of course Aes Sedai and Cairhienin, and could see what occured even though no one could have proved it. After all, in the end it was Estanda who had most to gain from this among the nobles, her and Tedosian. But indeed, this is not any central part to the story, just removing some opponents from play, and purposeful in that.

 

So I think there's intrigue enough, but how central it should be to the story is a matter of taste.

 

Edit: a few annoying typos. There is more in the way of relevant politics in later books.

[Rodrik]

No, not magic. There walls could've been thin/hollow, and the nobility could've had people hear things within the rooms from secret passages behind the walls, like Varys in Song of Ice and Fire. There would be lenses in the rooms, which people in these passages could peer through to see things in the room. That's just an example, of course.

 

Again, my problem with that was it was too simple, and it worked too easily. There was no feint within feint within feint, as they say in Dune.

 

Which brings me to another problem I have with the series: The main characters get too lucky. This happens in many series, with writers refusing to kill off main characters, and it really dulls it for me. There's no suspense in battle because I know that none of the main characters are going to die. It's pretty damned unrealistic. GRRM isn't too willing to kill off some of his characters either, but there's always suspense during the battles etc in SoIF because you know that the main characters can be killed or crippled, etc. It's all fair game.

 

And if no main characters die, at least some of the minor ones can be killed off. Having the Amyrlin be killed in Book 4 would've been a nice twist. But as it is, while reading there is no suspense because I know nothing too bad will happen to any of the 'good guys' and that if they're captures it's pretty damned likely they'll get released/escape, and that any injuries will get healed/not permanently cripple them.

[Kadere]

First off they're Taveran which explains why they're so "lucky." Plus, keep reading.

[Jedimuppet]

First off they're Taveran which explains why they're so "lucky." Plus' date=' keep reading.[/quote']

 

Yeah, totally...they certainly suffer.

J

[Inara]

siuan is cental to the story of the tower...keep going, most things are revealed.

[Jackalyn]

About you saying that he's to reluctant to off the character or maim them. The fact that your saying that show's that you have't read very much of the series. I don't want to give away spoilers but i FoH At least 4 character's are killed at least temporaly, and most recently one of the main character's has been permainatly maimed, and there are strong hints that a least another main character will be maimed in AMOL.

[Guest Egwene]

First things first, keep reading Rodrik. The best read is the first re-read of all the books in any case. As it is only than that you realise how well thought through the whole story is.

 

Here is why maybe you love one series and I love the other:

 

Think of when you talk to people. Some will bore you almost instantly with the way they express themselves. Others you could listen to for hours. It is not about what they say as much as how they say it. However, your best friend might like to listen to the person that bores you in preference to the other.

 

What it boils down to is that we all have different ways in how we express ourselves and how we like people to interact with us. Which is why labels such as 'great writer' are really very subjective as you analyse the style they write in with your prefered way of communicating in mind.

 

It does not make one writer better than the other, just different. There is no definative writing style that is the best as there is no definate reader.

 

(bye the way... you talk about problems with things being unrealistc in WoT... 13yr olds leading armies into war and being treated as equals by seasoned generals - is that realistic?? )