The Horn and Tarmon Gaidon

[Luckers]

Quote

Your saying a sense of romance can't be substantive? What a product of modern cynicism you are.

 

LOL ... not in the context you were proposing.  I believe you said it was like "angsting for the old days" ... I wouldn't consider that either substantive or pertinent.  I think that what Hawkwing said was both substantive and pertinent, not at all "romantic" in the sense you proposed.

 

Then clearly you arn't understanding the sense i was proposing. Do you really think it wrong of a man to take pride in his standard--and ultimately the Dragon banner is the standard that leads the Light against the Shadow.

 

People have killed for banners--and been killed for desecrating them. The romance of the symbol, the ideal it purports and the sense of unity, belonging and shared purpose it represents are very powerful things. Even for a Hero.

 

 

 

As for the rest, I understand what you are saying, and i think ive pretty clearly stated my position... so yeah.

 

 

 

 

 

[cloglord]

And yes, it would push a thread, or threads, if it detected a point where a divergence away from that stability might happen. But concider this, if it was capable of either the decisive reasoning or the ability to strike people down in the way it struck down Taim and the others, why didn't it strike down Mierin and Beidomon?

 

I think that this is indicative of another characteristic of the pattern.  I don't think that the taveren mechanism is merely to stablize itself, but also to balance itself.  In this context the pattern would be using beidomon and Mierin as a mechanism to correct the balance back towards the side of evil and therefore stability.  I would submit that too much good in the pattern would have an overly static effect on the pattern causing it to stagnate and ultimately fail, just as too much evil would create a chaotic effect and endanger the pattern.  That's just my opinion, but I think it explains why the pattern didn't snip Beidomon of Mierin out of the pattern with an unfortunate,(or fortunate depending on your POV,) accident.

 

I also agree on the subject of banner's.  Iowa is currently undergoing a multi-million dollar restoration of their civil war battle flags.  They are facsinating pieces of history with burns, bullet holes, and blood.  They routinely send samples from these flags to determine how many different people have bled on them.  The importance of these banners was certainly more than nostalgic notions of a bygone time, they were battlefield indicators of where to move, and the absence of the flag was an indicator that it was time to run away, because the battle was lost.  To begin the battle without the flag was unthinkable. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Then clearly you arn't understanding the sense i was proposing. Do you really think it wrong of a man to take pride in his standard--and ultimately the Dragon banner is the standard that leads the Light against the Shadow.

 

I don't think thats why Hawkwing wanted the Banner at all.  I think the Pattern "wanted" him to follow it because breaking the Seanchan was less important than proclaiming Rand as the Dragon.  In other words, I don't think that Hawkwing really cared about the Banner one way or the other ... we have no reason to believe that he ever fought for or under it.  Its not actually the the standard of the Light ... its Lews Therin's personal banner.  But the Pattern ... the "weave of the moment", which was proclaiming Rand as Lews Therin reborn ... required it.

[Luckers]

Yes... but I don't think that. That's all I was saying.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK.  I can live with that.

[Majsju]

Since RJ confirmed the Wheel was responsible for broadcasting Rands battle with Ishy all over the place, how can it be so hard to believe it also was responsible for holding Hawkwing back, especially since both actions had the same goal?

[Luckers]

Move up a few posts. I explain my reasoning pretty clearly.

[Majsju]

To adress a question in one of your earlier posts...

 

Does that make any sense at all?

 

No. It does not.

 

You seem to base a lot of your reasoning on the fact that the Wheel is not sentient. While that is true, what RJ said about it, that it is a "fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way", leaves a lot of opportunities for the Wheel to act.

 

Forcing Rand to produce the banner, and thus proclaim himself is not taking an active part in the fight between Light and Dark, it is an action aimed at protecting the Pattern, because the pattern demands that the true Dragon Reborn steps forward. Will the real DR please stand up, please stand up, please stand up?  ;D

If the Wheel was so limited in what it can and can not do, even making Rand, Mat and Perrin ta'veren would be kinda stretching it. Especially Mat and Perrin. Rand might be a unique case, but those two? The Wheel identifying specific threads and deciding they are to be made ta'veren in order to help the DR?

Holding Hawkwing back pales compared to that.

[Luckers]

Nice effort mate. You draw one line out of context, and proceed with a generic line of reasoning that I've already addressed as if its some form of new thought.

 

For clarity I do see the logic behind your argument, I just think its wrong. As I've extrapolated. At length.

 

So, to reiterate, move up a few posts. I'm more than willing to discuss the issue, but to do that your gonna actually have to take a look at what I wrote. I think you'll be surprised, i actually have thoughts on all of your points. Its shocking.