No w this is just driving me up the wall - it makes no sense!

[Luckers]

Not really. Why would it? If the point is to let Egwene believe she had escaped then they'd have to let her get over the effects of the Forkroot by herself.

 

Besides, thats assuming the Aes Sedai are aware of the effects of strength on a gateway.

[DuDZiK]

Not really. Why would it? If the point is to let Egwene believe she had escaped then they'd have to let her get over the effects of the Forkroot by herself.

 

Besides, thats assuming the Aes Sedai are aware of the effects of strength on a gateway.

 

I reiterate, if that was their plan why do they continue to give her the forkroot drink every hour? Elaida made it abundantly clear that she wants Egwene broken and molded into her puppet, or at least a typical maleable novice and there are others who agree with such a sentiment; the Mistress of Novices for example. Also, Elaida already knows how to travel, as well as those sisters who she has chosen to trust. Now, you could argue that there are some sisters who don't care two figs for such a thing and are willing to allow Egwene to escape if it means learning how to travel, but there is one main reason as to why I retain strong doubt: I am of the opinion that in the case of fictional literature you can only take as true what is clearly said. When you try and read into a character's mind and their actions in ways that are not covered by the books, you are in essence trying to read into the mind of the author and you might be asserting that a character was doing/thinking things that the author would say: "dude... what?" to.

[Avendoraldera]

I don't think Elaida is smart enough to think up a trick like that. Individual sisters might try, but on the whole I think the focus is more on breaking her. Besides, Elaida might think that Egwene will spill the beans on everything she knows after they break her, so again I think that they are going with a straight forward approach.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It's entirely possible that her 'opportunities' weren't accidental. Maybe they intentionally let her get these chances under the hope that she would try and escape and reveal the travelling weave.

 

Um ... sorry.  Elaida knows how to Travel, guys.  Beonin showed her in KoD ch 2.

[Luckers]

It's entirely possible that her 'opportunities' weren't accidental. Maybe they intentionally let her get these chances under the hope that she would try and escape and reveal the travelling weave.

 

Um ... sorry.  Elaida knows how to Travel, guys.  Beonin showed her in KoD ch 2.

 

Which is not, chronologically speaking, prior to Egwene's stint of freedom with Katerine. Both occur during Egwene's first day as a novice, at around the same time, with, if anything, the incident with Katerine occuring first.

 

I reiterate, if that was their plan why do they continue to give her the forkroot drink every hour?

 

Well, again, much as I said after your last iteration, if the goal was to trick Egwene into thinking she was unwatched and thus escaping, then they could hardly go 'we're letting you recover your strength in order to lull you into a false sense of security'. And again, much as i said after your last iteration, that is assuming they knew strength was a factor with weaving a gateway.

 

Elaida made it abundantly clear that she wants Egwene broken and molded into her puppet, or at least a typical maleable novice and there are others who agree with such a sentiment; the Mistress of Novices for example.

 

I don't see the relevance. Breaking her is clearly one of their intentions. Another is learning the method of travelling. They are hardly mutually exclusive realities--indeed, crushing her when she thought she had escaped seems a relatively effective method of breaking someone, just look at the scene with Galina at the end of KoD.

 

Also, Elaida already knows how to travel, as well as those sisters who she has chosen to trust.

 

No, she didn't. Elaida learnt from Beonin several hours after sunrise. The incident with Katerine occured just after sunrise. At best they could be said to be concurrent.

 

Now, you could argue that there are some sisters who don't care two figs for such a thing and are willing to allow Egwene to escape if it means learning how to travel

 

Why would I wish to argue that? Its completely unnessasary.

 

Now, you could argue that there are some sisters who don't care two figs for such a thing and are willing to allow Egwene to escape if it means learning how to travel, but there is one main reason as to why I retain strong doubt: I am of the opinion that in the case of fictional literature you can only take as true what is clearly said. When you try and read into a character's mind and their actions in ways that are not covered by the books, you are in essence trying to read into the mind of the author and you might be asserting that a character was doing/thinking things that the author would say: "dude... what?" to.

 

 

... what? We are dealing with a reality. Katerine left Egwene unobstructed. We are dealing with another reality. The Aes Sedai wanted to learn how to travel. The first suggests two options, one... that the Aes Sedai were stupid. And the Aes Sedai are not stupid. They are annoying hypocrites whose prejudices blind them, but they are nevertheless of above average intelligence, educations and strength of will. Which ultimately suggests two, they they intentionally allowed it to happen, in which case option two provides a clear reason for such.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Which is not, chronologically speaking, prior to Egwene's stint of freedom with Katerine. Both occur during Egwene's first day as a novice, at around the same time, with, if anything, the incident with Katerine occuring first.

 

So ... if Elaida's orders were designed to trick her into giving away Travelling ... Elaida would have changed them after ... the very first day.

 

But we've seen nothing to indicate that.  Its not like what happened that first day is the ONLY time Egwene's been left apparently alone ... she is apparently left alone for the night every night in the novice quarters (when she has to comfort the other novices because of the shifting hallways).  For example, she was ostensibly unaccompanied on the seventh day of her captivity when she confronted Beonin ... well after Elaida knew how to Travel, etc.  She goes to and from her lessons with Sisters unaccompanied (which didn't start until the second day)... and if she were being discretely followed by Red "minders", it would have caused a stir at some point, considering how many times she's gone into other Ajah's quarters (ie multiple times per day).

 

No, the most likely case is that Elaida and those she has put in charge simply view her as another novice who will, inevitably, be tamed ... and they believe that forkroot every hour on the hour is enough to keep her there until that taming is accomplished.

 

As a side note ... there's no evidence that she will eventually build up an immunity to forkroot ... and even if she would, it could take months, or even years.  Its much more likely, in my opinion, that her victory will be accomplished without resorting to channeling.  She doesn't need to prove that she's a stronger or more skilled channeler than Elaida.  She needs to demonstrate that she's a better leader for the Aes Sedai than Elaida.

[Luckers]

And why would Elaida have changed them, precisely? Elaida specifically suppressed the knowledge of how to Travel amongst the Tower sisters. Reversing a previous order, when such an order clearly indicates the expectation of control over Egwene's supposed escape, would merely raise questions as to the why of it all. And since on her fourth day one of her teachers attempts to trick her into revealing the reality of travelling its quite clear that the Aes Sedai, as a whole, are still interested.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And why would Elaida have changed them, precisely? Elaida specifically suppressed the knowledge of how to Travel amongst the Tower sisters.

 

Thats the reason, right there.  Assuming she did plan to trick Egwene into dealing with it, someone else would have seen the actual weave.  Now, if Elaida's choices are "Not know the weave" and "Learn it through another Sister seeing it", then she would choose to let someone else see it.  But once Beonin gave it to her, in a way that allowed her to keep it from anyone else?  Then letting someone else see Egwene do it becomes an unnecessary liability.

 

Given the way that Elaida has gone back and forth on other issues, I hardly think that changing her orders regarding Egwene, in a slight manner, would occasion any serious comment.

 

The fact that Egwene's teachers try to trick it out of her (and that Leane continues to be questioned) is simply evidence that Elaida isn't sharing, not that Elaida has that as part of her plan.  Most of Egwene's teachers hate Elaida's guts.

[DuDZiK]

I reiterate, if that was their plan why do they continue to give her the forkroot drink every hour?

 

Well, again, much as I said after your last iteration, if the goal was to trick Egwene into thinking she was unwatched and thus escaping, then they could hardly go 'we're letting you recover your strength in order to lull you into a false sense of security'. And again, much as i said after your last iteration, that is assuming they knew strength was a factor with weaving a gateway.

 

Why would they want to lull her into a false sense of security? Why would they bother? If they really wanted to have her escape so they could learn the weave, they would stop giving her the forkroot so she could actually do it. THAT would certainly give her a false sense of security. The tower is full of sisters who could channel; they're not worrieb about her attacking them or escaping on foot. They're afraid of her being strong enough to channel so she can travel out of the White Tower. That's the whole reason for the forkroot in the first place. It's not a matter of knowing that you must be strong in the power to create a gateway. The purpose of giving her the forkroot is that she will be too weak to form all but the simplest weaves, and so she can continue to 'learn' as a novice. I'm pretty sure they would know or at least assume that travelling is not a 'simple' weave.

 

Elaida made it abundantly clear that she wants Egwene broken and molded into her puppet, or at least a typical maleable novice and there are others who agree with such a sentiment; the Mistress of Novices for example.

 

I don't see the relevance. Breaking her is clearly one of their intentions. Another is learning the method of travelling. They are hardly mutually exclusive realities--indeed, crushing her when she thought she had escaped seems a relatively effective method of breaking someone, just look at the scene with Galina at the end of KoD.

 

Except that from all POVs no sister wants to do such an overly elaborate and devious thing. The relevance is that there is no indication that any sister is trying to trick Egwene in this way. You're grasping at smoke here, so you shouldn't be surprised if you come up with nothing. You're basing this theory entirely on one instance, or maybe a few instances, when there has been moments when it appeared as if Egwene had no 'guards' in her presence.

 

Also, Elaida already knows how to travel, as well as those sisters who she has chosen to trust.

 

No, she didn't. Elaida learnt from Beonin several hours after sunrise. The incident with Katerine occured just after sunrise. At best they could be said to be concurrent.

 

Forgive me, but this one incident is what you are basing your entire theory around? Do you really believe this that this theory of yours is cold hard fact, or are you just trying to argue that it just might be possible?

 

Now, you could argue that there are some sisters who don't care two figs for such a thing and are willing to allow Egwene to escape if it means learning how to travel

 

Why would I wish to argue that? Its completely unnessasary.

 

I don't know, I am trying to understand exactly what it is you are trying to argue and why you would argue it. I don't know why you would bother arguing about this as you have done at all.

 

Now, you could argue that there are some sisters who don't care two figs for such a thing and are willing to allow Egwene to escape if it means learning how to travel, but there is one main reason as to why I retain strong doubt: I am of the opinion that in the case of fictional literature you can only take as true what is clearly said. When you try and read into a character's mind and their actions in ways that are not covered by the books, you are in essence trying to read into the mind of the author and you might be asserting that a character was doing/thinking things that the author would say: "dude... what?" to.

 

... what? We are dealing with a reality. Katerine left Egwene unobstructed. We are dealing with another reality. The Aes Sedai wanted to learn how to travel. The first suggests two options, one... that the Aes Sedai were stupid. And the Aes Sedai are not stupid. They are annoying hypocrites whose prejudices blind them, but they are nevertheless of above average intelligence, educations and strength of will. Which ultimately suggests two, they they intentionally allowed it to happen, in which case option two provides a clear reason for such.

 

"Katerine left Egwene unobstructed" is your only solid fact in that statement, and the rest is just pure assumption on your part. In fact, which event are you speaking of, when Katerine left Egwene 'unobstructed'?

 

And that's exactly what I mean. You are taking one fact - one very small and very insignificant part of the books - and from that trying to build elaborate conspiracy theories. Occam's Razaor: the simplest explanation is likely the best one. Most likely, it was simply a brief lapse in Egwene's guard and the Aes Sedai are not trying to trick Egwene into trying to run away at all.

[BKVMC]

 

No, the most likely case is that Elaida and those she has put in charge simply view her as another novice who will, inevitably, be tamed ... and they believe that forkroot every hour on the hour is enough to keep her there until that taming is accomplished

 

 

 

Agree 100% the simplest explanation is often the best one.

[Luckers]

Thats the reason, right there.  Assuming she did plan to trick Egwene into dealing with it, someone else would have seen the actual weave.  Now, if Elaida's choices are "Not know the weave" and "Learn it through another Sister seeing it", then she would choose to let someone else see it.  But once Beonin gave it to her, in a way that allowed her to keep it from anyone else?  Then letting someone else see Egwene do it becomes an unnecessary liability.

 

Given the way that Elaida has gone back and forth on other issues, I hardly think that changing her orders regarding Egwene, in a slight manner, would occasion any serious comment.

 

Perhaps, but then again perhaps not. Elaida's reasoning for witholding the knowledge is steeped in paranoia, which to me makes it more likely that she would not wish to tip her hand by countermanding such an order.

 

But more importantly, recall that in the same meeting that Beonin gave her travelling, she also relayed Egwene's intentions to remain thus making the whole issue of counter-manding such an order pointless.

 

Why would they want to lull her into a false sense of security? Why would they bother? If they really wanted to have her escape so they could learn the weave, they would stop giving her the forkroot so she could actually do it. THAT would certainly give her a false sense of security.

 

Umm, no it wouldn't. Firstly, if this is the scenario in play, then they wouldn't have wanted her to escape. But more importantly they wouldn't have wanted her to know that they were allowing it just so that she reveals travelling. Them suddenly stopping her doses of forkroot wouldn't give her any sort of sense of security, it would make her wary and that would place their plan in risk.

 

Do you really think they think Egwene is so stupid that she would go. 'Hmm, oh my, they stopped giving me forkroot. How silly of them. Well, I guess I'd better Travel away now.'

 

That's why they would bother. For such a plan to have any form of success--especially for them to be certain they could stop Egwene from actually escaping--they need her not to realise what is going on. They needed her to think that it was her ingenuity that allowed it. They dangle it by giving her periods 'alone'. They even go so far as to be 'late' in delivering the tea at one stage, but anything further would betray their hand.

 

The tower is full of sisters who could channel; they're not worrieb about her attacking them or escaping on foot. They're afraid of her being strong enough to channel so she can travel out of the White Tower. That's the whole reason for the forkroot in the first place. It's not a matter of knowing that you must be strong in the power to create a gateway. The purpose of giving her the forkroot is that she will be too weak to form all but the simplest weaves, and so she can continue to 'learn' as a novice. I'm pretty sure they would know or at least assume that travelling is not a 'simple' weave.

 

I'm not sure I see your point here. Of course they give her forkroot, in part to keep her from travelling away willy-nilly--though i rather doubt the emphasis you place on that as the primrary issue really was in play, but meh.

 

But whats your point? That they wouldn't let her dodge the forkroot dose in controlled circumstances in order that they trick the travelling weave out of her? I don't see why they wouldn't--i mean they'd want it to be controlled... thats part of the reason why they wouldn't simply stop giving her forkroot.

 

Except that from all POVs no sister wants to do such an overly elaborate and devious thing. The relevance is that there is no indication that any sister is trying to trick Egwene in this way. You're grasping at smoke here, so you shouldn't be surprised if you come up with nothing. You're basing this theory entirely on one instance, or maybe a few instances, when there has been moments when it appeared as if Egwene had no 'guards' in her presence.

 

You do realise that those 'instances' classify as indications, right? When people do strange things, it 'indicates' that something strange is going on, yes?

 

Lol.

 

Forgive me, but this one incident is what you are basing your entire theory around? Do you really believe this that this theory of yours is cold hard fact, or are you just trying to argue that it just might be possible?

 

Just that it might be possible. The initial poster raised a question, I offered a viable solution. And no, that one incident is not the sole basis of that solution.

 

I don't know, I am trying to understand exactly what it is you are trying to argue and why you would argue it. I don't know why you would bother arguing about this as you have done at all.

 

Let me clarify it for you. The initial poster asked what was up with the stupid way the Aes Sedai were going around guarding Egwene--espcially in a place that offered a way to hide so readily. Two options were suggesting. That the Aes Sedai are indeed stupid, and that they were secretly watching Egwene.

 

Since over all the Aes Sedai are no stupid--hypocritical fools whose prejudices and beliefs blind them, certainly, but nevertheless on average are intelligent, well educated women, i had to pause for a moment.

 

Now Robert made a valid point that their beliefs about novices provide an easy reason for them to overlook Egwene. Its possible, certainly--even with Egwene representing the possible continuation of the Rebellion, it is possible--no, even supported by the way certain Aes Sedai ignore her--that this is the case. But even so there are holes. Like concidering the realities of travelling why they weren't alert for a Rebel rescue attempt.

 

So its possible, but it relies very heavily on an assumption about the Aes Sedai's state of mind. Thats a weighty assumption to make about 200 plus women of above average intelligence. So, I paused to think... ok, this is happening, is there any reasons they would allow this to happen intentionally.

 

It popped up clearly and immediately. Elaida's stated reason for keeping Egwene alive was the new weaves she had come up with (and the mind that created them). From the start the Aes Sedai are desperate to learn those weaves. So how do you learn them when Egwene wouldn't teach them? Trick her into using them of her own volition. This explains the random alone moments, the late delivery of the tea, and so forth without requiring any exceptional assumptions. We have a reason that is stated, and a reality of enacting that reason, which is shown.

 

Does that clear things up for you Dudzik? You would do well to bear in mind that just because you fail to understand something doesn't mean that the person posting it has no reasons to do so. To think so is quite unattractive.

 

"Katerine left Egwene unobstructed" is your only solid fact in that statement, and the rest is just pure assumption on your part. In fact, which event are you speaking of, when Katerine left Egwene 'unobstructed'?

 

Go back and re-read there buddy. And the Katerine instance i was addressing was the one raised by the initial poster, not the only only incident.

 

And that's exactly what I mean. You are taking one fact - one very small and very insignificant part of the books - and from that trying to build elaborate conspiracy theories. Occam's Razaor: the simplest explanation is likely the best one. Most likely, it was simply a brief lapse in Egwene's guard and the Aes Sedai are not trying to trick Egwene into trying to run away at all.

 

Well ignoring your unbased assignations of significance... and size (really? Size?), it would seem to me that your explanation is the one based in assumption. Yours stems down to the idea that several of Egwene's guards were, completely seperate of each other, suddenly struck stupid all in the exact same way at varying times in her captivity. Do you have any stated evidence? Any POV's with a sudden dramatic decline in brain function displayed?

 

No, there isn't, so don't try and play word games with me. I can restate your theory in a derisive and dismissive way too--though i doubt i would ever go so far as to insult its size. I mean thats just mean. What if its very sensitive about its size--you could have just driven it into a depression. Naughty you.

 

My suggestion is based on events. That Egwene was left alone. And a suggested reason, that again is stated as being the single main reason that the Aes Sedai keep Egwene around, that they want to know what she knows.

 

The original poster asked why they would do this, and so short of an endemic of stupidity this presents a viable reason, and was stated as a the single most significant fact in the Aes Sedai's minds when it came to Egwene. Deal with it.

[Majsju]

Luckers, a big problem with your theory is that some sisters now knows about the ability to invert weaves and mask the ability to channel, which means that even if they did manage to catch Egwene in the act of weaving a gateway, they might not see a damn thing except for a hole opening in thin air. And if Egwene is masking her ability to channel, it might give her a few extra seconds to sneak away, enough time for her to actually succeed in escaping.

 

Quite a great risk with little hope of gaining anything other than a brief view of the rebels camp.

 

I maintain my theory, sisters are watching her discretly. If she is to be treated like a novice, and broken enough to start seeing herself, as well as other seeing her as a novice, they can not possibly let it show that they are so threatened by her that she needs to have an Aes Sedai tied to her back at all times. Doing so would send a message that she is something special, which is the exact opposite of what Elaida and her gang wants.

[DuDZiK]

You do realise that those 'instances' classify as indications, right? When people do strange things, it 'indicates' that something strange is going on, yes?

 

All it indicates is exactly what it is - for a reason we cannot be sure of, Egwene is, at some moments, without a full sister on either arm. It does not indicate the reason, such as your theory.

 

Forgive me, but this one incident is what you are basing your entire theory around? Do you really believe this that this theory of yours is cold hard fact, or are you just trying to argue that it just might be possible?

 

Just that it might be possible. The initial poster raised a question, I offered a viable solution. And no, that one incident is not the sole basis of that solution.

 

Thank you, that's the main thing I wanted to find out.

 

It popped up clearly and immediately. Elaida's stated reason for keeping Egwene alive was the new weaves she had come up with (and the mind that created them). From the start the Aes Sedai are desperate to learn those weaves. So how do you learn them when Egwene wouldn't teach them? Trick her into using them of her own volition. This explains the random alone moments, the late delivery of the tea, and so forth without requiring any exceptional assumptions. We have a reason that is stated, and a reality of enacting that reason, which is shown.

 

I reiterate, again. Egwene being apparently unguarded for brief moments does not equal the AS sisters trying to trick her into using her 'special' weaves. I agree that it could be possible - and I apologize for thinking you were arguing more than your possibility, but that's how your posts came off to me - but I don't think it is very likely. As I said before, in part to explain my stance on such things, unless there is a POV or a statement from someone where they clearly say something like, in this instance: "We are trying to trick Egwene to learn how to travel", then I am reluctant to jump on any boat or theory as to the reasons why. For a more elaborate explanation on this you can go back and reread that one post of mine.

 

Does that clear things up for you Dudzik? You would do well to bear in mind that just because you fail to understand something doesn't mean that the person posting it has no reasons to do so. To think so is quite unattractive.

 

I see no reason to take such a tone with me.

 

Well ignoring your unbased assignations of significance... and size (really? Size?), it would seem to me that your explanation is the one based in assumption. Yours stems down to the idea that several of Egwene's guards were, completely seperate of each other, suddenly struck stupid all in the exact same way at varying times in her captivity. Do you have any stated evidence? Any POV's with a sudden dramatic decline in brain function displayed?

 

I am not offering up any theory, because as I have said before I neither cling to any theory or think up my own unless I have direct evidence from the books.

 

No, there isn't, so don't try and play word games with me. I can restate your theory in a derisive and dismissive way too--though i doubt i would ever go so far as to insult its size. I mean thats just mean. What if its very sensitive about its size--you could have just driven it into a depression. Naughty you.

 

I hope you're being playful with this. 'Small' meaning it's a short part of the books in terms of how often it comes up, and the length of which it is given privy. The amount of time and words given to these instances is small, hence my wording.

 

The original poster asked why they would do this, and so short of an endemic of stupidity this presents a viable reason, and was stated as a the single most significant fact in the Aes Sedai's minds when it came to Egwene. Deal with it.

 

A 'viable reason' with no evidence. That's the problem, or at least that's my problem.

 

This is starting to go beyond a simple discussion or debate, I see. If you take exception to my wording, or how you perceived my tone to be towards you, you could have just said so and I would have been only too glad to moderate myself to be more friendly. I apologize if I came off as offensive but that's just the way I speak... or in this instance write, in a discussion. But as the saying goes 'an eye for an eye and the world goes blind'; thinking that I meant to insult or demean you as an excuse to fire back at me is not the most polite or mature thing to do. All it does is lower yourself to what you perceived to be my level.