Questions about the Aiel

[Saidar]

I'm rereading The Shadow Rising atm and I've got a few questions...

 

So I'm at the part where Rand hears about his real parents and they talk about a man who killed Rands father. Who was it?

 

And I'd like to talk about the Aiel.

 

In the AoL they served the Aes Sedia (but a while ago a other Aiel said they served the Dragon, LLT). And they didn't use any violence. But then the DO got free and some things changed. The Aiel had to flee with lots of Avendesora and lots of angreaals, ter'angreaals and sa'angreaals. So they fled. After the breaking lots of things went wrong.

 

So the first Aiel like we know them now were Lewin, Luca and Alijha. So now we have the Jenn Aiel and the Aiel.

 

So who did they serve? LLT or the AS? Or both?

And are the Jenn Aiel and the Tuatha'an the same?

[Minnea]

So I'm at the part where Rand hears about his real parents and they talk about a man who killed Rands father. Who was it?

 

The one who killed Rand's real father, Janduin, was said to look like his real mother Shaiel, who really was Tigraine (former daughter-heir of Andor). Her brother Luc had "disapperaed" in the Blight before she disappered into the Waste, and Luc merged with Isam - becoming the one we know as Slayer. So I think it was Slayer, looking like Luc in the real world, who killed Janduin.

 

So who did they serve? LLT or the AS? Or both?

I think the original Aiel served different Aes Sedai. One of those we see is, for example, serving Mierin Sedai (who then becomes Lanfear). Of course some of them did serve Lews Therin, since he was Aes Sedai too, but not all of them I think. That may be one of the things changed by history.

 

And are the Jenn Aiel and the Tuatha'an the same?

The Jenn Aiel is the ones that constructed Rhuidean. Tuatha'an and Aiel has  common roots, but I think the Tinkers broke away from the Aiel, looking for the Song, before the ofhter division. The Jenn were those who kept the original connection with the Aes Sedai and took care of the chora trees and 'angreals. Present day Aiel broke away from them when they started using weapons.

[Luckers]

In the AoL they served the Aes Sedia (but a while ago a other Aiel said they served the Dragon, LLT).

 

During the war Lews Therin helped protect the Aiel, and in time things got twisted to the stage that people believed the Aiel served only the Dragon. It's how they got the name 'People of the Dragon'.

 

And they didn't use any violence. But then the DO got free and some things changed. The Aiel had to flee with lots of Avendesora and lots of angreaals, ter'angreaals and sa'angreaals. So they fled. After the breaking lots of things went wrong.

 

They didn't start using violence until well into the breaking. During the final days of the Age of Legends the Aiel were getting killed like flies because they wouldn't flee from their jobs, so the female Aes Sedai gave them the task of protecting certain *angreal from men who can channel. It was make-work to keep them safe.

 

So who did they serve? LLT or the AS? Or both?

And are the Jenn Aiel and the Tuatha'an the same?

 

Ok, on the creation of the Tuatha'an. Basically, as I said, the Da'shain Aiel were sent off with make-work of protecting the *angreal, but after a heap of them died doing that task part of the Da'shain broke off saying they wanted to seek out the peace and prosperity they had once enjoyed rather then continuing the thankless task of protecting the *angreal. They said they wanted to remember how to 'sing' something they used to do in the Age of Legends. In time that desire for peace and their life and singing became the ideal of the Song, and interbreeding with other people basically consumed the Aiel genetics, though the Aiel still remember and call them the Lost Ones.

 

The Jenn came later. After Aiel started taking up the spear they still called themselves Aiel, claiming they followed the Way still by not having a sword and by covering their faces and so forth--but they knew that was wrong, they knew that they had broken the Way. The name Jenn Aiel was their way of recognising those that had not broken the Way. It means 'the only true Aiel'.

[Tenshin_Xo]

Actually it wasn't uncommon at least from what we know for a group of Aiel to serve a specific Aes Sedai.  For example we know of Charn/Charin who was the subject of a lynching for having served Lanfear before she turned.  It is possible that the bulk of the Aiel were LTT's serving in the HQ for his military.

 

I'm going to differ very slightly from Luckers on the creation of the Tinkers and their being called the Lost Ones.  The Jenn Aiel were the closest thing to the original Aiel that could be found.  The Aiel we know today are a splinter group which obviously prospered more than the Jenn Aiel.  The Lost Ones are kind of a parallel evolution of the Aiel.  I doubt that they came from the original Aiel caravan but were a second caravan which illustrates the 'what if' of what would have happened if the Aiel had stayed in the mainland.  They never developed their modified Way of the Leaf, nor did they retain their heritage and cultural identity.  They only things that remain from their ancestry are their wagons(more or less), their singing/quest for the Song, and the "true" Way of the Leaf.

 

I suspect the Aiel became distinct from the Jenn Aiel towards the end of the breaking, while the Tinkers began to lose their identity anywhere from 60 to 150 years after the breaking.  Figure anytime after 3 generations or so.  Ironically only the Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones know that the Lost Ones are more the True Ones, and hence give them unhindered passage through the waste(conjecture).

[Luckers]

No, they were from the original caravan. They split off from the Aiel in Adan's time, roughly fifty years after the Aiel began their journey (the leader of the Aiel in the time they left was Jonai, Adan's father).

 

Basically the Da'shain Aiel left Paaren Disen with tens of thousands of wagons, and over the next fifty years suffer from attacks. Then a man named Sulwin got fed up with protecting the *angreal and dumps them, saying that he wanted to sing again like their people did in the Age of Legends. As they are leaving Adan calls out that they are lost, but Sulwin calls back that he will keep the Way of the Leaf.

 

Then another ten years on Adan's daughter gets kidnapped, and his son Lewin goes to find her, and kills a man. Adan tells Lewin that he is no longer Da'shain, but Lewin says he is still Aiel. The appearence of the name Jenn took time after that. It's referenced first about fifty years on when there are enough fighting Aiel that they form septs. Adan's son Joeram references the Jenn. It's here that you begin seeing the idea that whilst the fighting Aiel are proud, they still remember that it is the Jenn who held to their oaths.

[Tenshin_Xo]

Ahh yeah, I had forgotten that.  They lost nearly a quarter of their numbers at that point, not accounting for disease and maurauding.

 

I had to go reread that chapter, I think it's one of my favorites now.  :D

 

BTW, Cads used you as bait to lure me into being one of her 'pretties'. Thanks. ;)

[Luckers]

Silly lad. She's one of my pretties, so that puts you under my control.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

As the leader of the Hall of Servants during the war of powerLTT could be said to be in charge of all A.S. and therefore of all Aiel. Its a short step to saying their the people of the dragon. Especially since thier mythology calls for them to be led by a leader having Dragons on both Arms (He who comes with the dawn) and they are actually lead by chiefs who have one Dragon placed on their arms in the ritual that makes them chiefs.

[Tenshin_Xo]

Silly lad. She's one of my pretties, so that puts you under my control.

 

I've been duped!

 

Quote:

 

As the leader of the Hall of Servants during the war of powerLTT could be said to be in charge of all A.S. and therefore of all Aiel. Its a short step to saying their the people of the dragon. Especially since thier mythology calls for them to be led by a leader having Dragons on both Arms (He who comes with the dawn) and they are actually lead by chiefs who have one Dragon placed on their arms in the ritual that makes them chiefs.

CUBAREY, where did you get that quote?  I'd challenge it's authenticity, since in the Attack on Shayol Ghul short story we see that there was rather a lot of division in the hall of the servants.  Even so much so that the female channelers were able to block LTT's plan to use the Choedan Kal.

[Cadsuane]

I would guess that Cubarey forgot to paste in the text he meant to be the quote, and instead just typed his response to the quote.

 

 

 

And don't listen to Luckers. He lies worse than Ishamael.  8)

[Luckers]

I taught Elan everything he knows, just not everything I know, so that makes sense.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Quote from the BWB chapter 4, The Fall Into The Shadow (In my case its from the english paperpack page 51, so I refer to it as the Little Black Book):

 

"At the onset of the war, the people had turned to the Aes Sadai to defend and guide them. The man who sat in the High Seat of the Hall of the Servants at that time was Lewis Therin Telamon, Lord of the Morning, who came to be known as the Dragon. The most powerful man of his time, he was chosen to lead the Ogier (who proved themselves to be as fierce in war as they had been gifted with songs in peace), the human warmen armed with new technalogy, and the Aes Sedai in the fight to prevent the Dark One from breaking free of his prison. ..

Only the Da'shain Aiel, who served the Aes Sedai and the Lord Dragon who led them, remained completely apart from the fighting.."

 

 

That's the quote I meant to include in my previous post.

 

The machinations of Latra Posae Decume and the "Fateful Concord" only shows that the history of obstinate( :o) female Aes Sedai refusal to see logic and to rebel goes back to the Age of Legends and did not begin with Elaida. ;) :D ;D

 

The plan to use the Chaddon Kal was Latra's alternate plan. The ter'angreal required to use them were in a region overrun by Sammael's forces so this plan never got off the ground.(See Chapter 4, Fall into the Shadow, pages 51-58 of LBB). Latera's continued obstinancy can be seen in a second quote from page 57 of LBB:

 

"Latra Posae's opposition to the Dragon's plan continued despite these events, and female Aes Sedai- perhaps in the manner of animals that, seeing a boulder rushing downhill, freeze in the path of destruction- held to their pledge,..."

 

 

[Tenshin_Xo]

Yet again I misspoke, I think its time for another re-read.

 

LTT's plan was to use the 7 seals with both male and female Aes Sedai.

 

In either case the original point stands, LTT was hardly the served by all Aes Sedai, and by extension the Dashain Aiel.  Now we have the opposition of the Fateful Concord, AND the coments made by Charn who served Lanfear to support that idea. Not to mention those Aiel who appear to serve Solinda.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

LTT was both the Tituler head of the Hall of Servants and the man choosen to lead all the forces of the light against the forces of the Shadow. Was his power absolute, no, were there dissenters, critics and rebels of course, but he was the Generalisimo of the light. Thus, having the Aiel(prior to Rand) believe themselves to be the people (or children) of the Dragon is not an illogical way of thinking of themselves.

[Tenshin_Xo]

Excepting that we have internal Points of View from that time, which show that the Aiel thought of themselves as serving their specific Aes Sedai they were bound to.  (ie Charn, Coumin)  Even in the chapter Dedicated, we see that the title was external and not internal, and that they were subject to much prejudice because people believed they served the Dragon and no other Aes Sedai.

 

In Jonai's PoV in the chapter "Dedicated" he speaks to Someshta, that is the passage which you are looking for which will explain the Da'shain's service as being not to the Dragon specifically, but to the Aes Sedai. pg 428 in the paperback.

[aevogt]

There is also a reference made to changing which Aes Sedai an Aiel will serve after he marries.  I'm fairly certain that it is Charn deciding to accept a marriage proposal, (the girl asks the boy - typical Aiel custom) leaving his current position and serving the Aes Sedai his betrothed serves.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Thus, having the Aiel(prior to Rand) believe themselves to be the people (or children) of the Dragon is not an illogical way of thinking of themselves.

 

An elaberation or clarification on my statement. I was referring to the present day Aeil whose, memories of their service to Aes Sedae is sketchy at best, but who remember that they served the A.S. and that LTT was the leader of the A.S. just prior to the breaking. Its obvious that they have a rather confused view of their former service. They believe they failed the A.S. but are unclear as how they failed them. Moreover In the beginning of the Fourth Book Ruric(sp) specifically states that "People of the Dragon" is a secret name for the Aiel.