Gholam, Balefire

[Luckers]

The issue is that balefire shoots out from a source that remains in the same place, and must constantly be connected to that point. It is therefore likely that it is that point which is the focus of the weave.

 

With the fireball on the other hand the weave is centred in the actual fire, sop before the fire can effect the gholam the weave which creates it is destroyed, and thus the fireball disapears. Since, if this theory is correct, the weave that creates the balefire never interacts with the gholam directly, then the effect will still work.

[YoungKing]

If balefire could kill a gholam, it would have been done, plain and simple. Wasn't Mat's medallion the only thing that has ever hurt it? It is also hunting Mat is it not, I'm a little rusty on the later books, but I got the impression that there will be a showdown between Mat and the gholam.

 

YK.

[callandor]

i remember that the gholam had a POV and it said that the man with the medallion was the only thing to ever hurt it. since it was made during the war of power, then i think it would have dealt with balefire, and well now its still not dead.

[dyring]

Thats not certain proof.

 

Balefire was only used for a very short time in the war of power. Then it was shunned since it was considered too dangerous, even by most of the forsaken.

 

Also, if the Gholam was truly invincible, then LTT would have been assasinated by one. Gholams propably jumped channelers carefully, one by one. There was likely a very limited number of channelers who had the time to actually try more then one panicweave when they met it.

 

And hitting the gholam with balefire might not be that easy anyway. There snt a homing function in the weave, and since it shoots out in a straight line, even were it to work, it wouldent be just to kill the gholam with it. Youd haveto hit it too ;).

 

Id think the best bet would be for a strong channeler to divide to 10 flows or so, each holding a sword and cut him up in alot of very small bits, then lock each of those bits up in stone ;)

 

 

[Gentled Ben]

I honestly don't see any way that Aginor would not have tried balefire on the gholam when he first created it.

 

We do not know what types of security measures were in place around LTT, but we could probably assume that they were tight and extensive. I mean, it isn't like he hadn't had a history of betrayal among his advisors--Moghedien, Be'lal, Sammael, Demandred--surely, that would prompt some protective measures to be taken, not to mention that it's just common sense to protect the leader. There might be a method of discouraging a gholam attack that we are unaware of and wasn't mentioned in the gholam's brief POVs.

 

EDIT: In fact, as I think about it, why didn't any one of those FS I mentioned destroy LTT when they had the chance? Each of them knew him personally and were trusted by him. The Shadow had probably put out a directive, even back then, not to kill him in hopes of seducing him instead, much the same as now...

[BKVMC]

Wasnt Birgitte the  one who told Mat that the Gholam  was well a Gholam.  To bad shes losing her memorys there has to be a way  to unmake something that is made  maybe the answer is  as simple as seperating the gholam from the  enviroment  death by  deprivation so to speak of course you would have to catch the thing first.

 

Ive wondered the same thing as well GentledBen  a few of the forsaken Loathed LTT and i would have thought would kill him  asap some of the forsaken might have been clinging to  the thought of LTT as their Colleague  and  swayed the DO  with the  plans of  seducing him iso killing him ? More likely the DO knows that to  truly Break the wheel he needs the  DR  to  turn to the dark  iso  just killing him for some reason we dont know.

[YoungKing]

Yeah you can't argue that it isn't proof because LTT would have been killed by one. We al know how stupid the Forsaken have been in this time period, so it's safe to assume that they were just as stupid then.

 

The fact that use of balefire stopped doesn't prove that balefire wouldn't have been used if that was the only method. Come on, balefire the thing or die? I doubt the channelers going to ponder that one, whether or not its ethical to use balefire on a gholam.

 

Hitting a gholam with balefire couldn't be that hard, especially if it was close to you. From the way it's described, it would seem that a "blast" of balefire travels extremely fast, so if a gholam was three feet away, it wouldn't be able to dodge it.

 

If you really think that a channeler will be able to take swords and cut up the gholam, I just have to laugh.

 

Also, I highly doubt any channelers would be able to trap a gholam. It's practically ethereal. The speed of which it can move and find a hole anywhere... cmon.

 

Any logical way that could be thought of to kill a gholam has already been thought of or tried by much more astute and gifted channelers then currently exist.

 

It's going to be Mat who somehow kills it, or nobody will.

 

YK.

[BKVMC]

The way the Gholam reacts to  Mats  medallion  makes me visualize the Gholam  as being Made entirely  of the  one power like a  walking sentient  weave.

[Gentled Ben]

That's an interesting thought. It would have to be an inverted weave though, as no channelers seem to sense it.

[Luckers]

If balefire could kill a gholam, it would have been done, plain and simple. Wasn't Mat's medallion the only thing that has ever hurt it? It is also hunting Mat is it not, I'm a little rusty on the later books, but I got the impression that there will be a showdown between Mat and the gholam.

 

YK.

 

Nice in thought, but not in reality. The ban on use of balefire went into effect during the first year of the war, likely before the gholam were even made. There is no 'it would have happened, it didn't, the end.' to this.

 

I honestly don't see any way that Aginor would not have tried balefire on the gholam when he first created it.

 

Now thats a more interesting question. A potential answer lies in the way both sides, without discussing it, simply stopped. For that sort of a dramatic undiscussed absolute ceasation of the use of such a powerful weapon in such a war is this, then the detrimental effects must be bluntly obvious. They said the pattern came very very close to unravelling.

 

It was, as of that moment, never used again in the war. No, I don't see Aginor simply using it as a test. Especially since, as tests go that would be a pretty destructive one, and ultimately there were only six gholam.

 

The fact that use of balefire stopped doesn't prove that balefire wouldn't have been used if that was the only method. Come on, balefire the thing or die? I doubt the channelers going to ponder that one, whether or not its ethical to use balefire on a gholam.

 

Your assuming its targets had time to think when the first defensive wave they used failed. Moreover the question isn't that simple. Destroy the world or die... thats a bit closer to the actual realities of the time following the overuse of balefire in the first year of the war.

 

Any logical way that could be thought of to kill a gholam has already been thought of or tried by much more astute and gifted channelers then currently exist.

 

Thats a fairly large assumption. Got any proof?

[Gentled Ben]

Luckers quoted me and responded:

Quote

I honestly don't see any way that Aginor would not have tried balefire on the gholam when he first created it.

 

Now thats a more interesting question. A potential answer lies in the way both sides, without discussing it, simply stopped. For that sort of a dramatic undiscussed absolute ceasation of the use of such a powerful weapon in such a war is this, then the detrimental effects must be bluntly obvious. They said the pattern came very very close to unravelling.

 

It was, as of that moment, never used again in the war. No, I don't see Aginor simply using it as a test. Especially since, as tests go that would be a pretty destructive one, and ultimately there were only six gholam.

 

For that sort of a dramatic undiscussed absolute ceasation of the use of such a powerful weapon in such a war is this, then the detrimental effects must be bluntly obvious. They said the pattern came very very close to unravelling.

 

I agree, and yet curiously enough, it's the weave Moghedien chose to unleash on Nynaeve. That leads me to believe that they don't fear it much in smaller amounts, unless of course, it's directed at them.

 

No, I don't see Aginor simply using it as a test. Especially since, as tests go that would be a pretty destructive one, and ultimately there were only six gholam.

 

The very fact that balefire would be an extremely destructive test is why I find it hard to believe that Aginor would not use it on the gholam. I guess I just see Aginor thinking that if the gholam passes the balefire test, well then, voila!  ;)

 

 

[Tenshin_Xo]

As far as destroying the Gholam, it seems to me there are a couple ways to accomplish that fact.  It seems as though you could starve the things, or encasement.  Balefire though, I don't think that might work.  We have evidence of balefire being ineffective in the books, like when Rand used Callandor to cleave his way throught the effect.  Could a similar proprty be imbued in the Gholam?

 

Without knowing precisely what allowed Rand to slice that flow of balefire, or even that it was balefire, its hard to say whether the Gholam may have it. Frankly i think it unlikely--only two options occur to me to explain that incident, one, that Callandor is actually made from a type of Cuendillar, and two, that Rand did his untrained stumble onto another miraculous new weave that can slice balefire.

 

Or three, it wasn't balefire. None of these options avail the Gholam much. In the end it comes down to the question of whether or not balefire is a weave, or an effect. If its a weave the gholams safe, if its an effect the gholams not.

 

TDR, Ch "What is written in prophecy" paperback 663.

 

  The bar of light made by Ishamael is described as being identical to the one Moiraine used to kill Belial.  He died from a white hot bar and dissolved into shimmering motes of black.

 

The book reads as the "The shaft of light struck the blade of Callandor- and parted on its edge...".  Its possible that some weave was used, but I think unlikely.  Your first supposition is quite likely in retrospect.

 

  I personally theorize that there may be some unknown rules about what happens when balefire strikes weaves made from the Source of it's own type.  Let alone the TP balefire from Logoth, as I also assume the Gholam are also crafted by the use of the TP as well as at least Saidin, though probably Saidar too.

 

  Speaking of that incident, it may provide weak evidence that balefire is the weave and not just a result, though it is weak, and subject to much debate.

[Luckers]

  The bar of light made by Ishamael is described as being identical to the one Moiraine used to kill Belial.  He died from a white hot bar and dissolved into shimmering motes of black.

 

I didn't say it was balefire, i just said that we don't know it for sure. Rand's description is entirely subjective to his knowledge, which is limited. Take for instance the description of the fire Lews Therin used to kill himself, it sounds alot like Balefire, yet isn't. It is entirely possible that Rand simply associated the two in his mind because of their extremely similar manifestations.

 

As you can tell from the actual mode of my answer, i too think it very likely that it WAS balefire, I'm just saying... its not certain.

 

 

[Tenshin_Xo]

I've been spending entirely too much time in D&D so I'm a bit defensive. ;)

 

I'm trying to think of any times balefire has actually struck a weave, and not just an effect of a weave, or the channeler.  Can you think of any?

[Gentled Ben]

If I understand your question correctly, the closest I could think of would be when the streams of balefire are crossed in SL, but then, we haven't determined whether balefire itself is a weave or an effect. :-/

[Luckers]

I actually can't think of anything, though supposedly there is no way to shield against balefire with the power (as far as the Forsaken know, which doesn't technically mean its impossible)--but that does suggest that balefire has killed people through weaves of protection with no effect or splitting... or linking.

 

It's still not impossible that Rand did stumble on yet another 'impossible' weave, but if it was balefire than i think it means that Callandor is Cuendillar.

[YoungKing]

I don't understand why you always have to argue Luckers.

 

You seem to repeat this notion that Rand stumbled on some sort of weave that could cut balefire in half, yet is never mentioned again? Come on, sometimes its ok to use common sense like everyone else instead of trying to make an argument out of nothing.

 

Nice in thought, but not in reality. The ban on use of balefire went into effect during the first year of the war, likely before the gholam were even made. There is no 'it would have happened, it didn't, the end.' to this.

 

The ban of balefire has nothing to do with this. It's irrelevant.

 

Your assuming its targets had time to think when the first defensive wave they used failed. Moreover the question isn't that simple. Destroy the world or die... thats a bit closer to the actual realities of the time following the overuse of balefire in the first year of the war.

 

Yes because if you use balefire, the world ends. In extensive use yes, but simply to kill one thing, and it comes down to "destroy the word or die"? Also, I'm not assuming that every target had time to think, there would be cases when it was impossible to react and the person died, cases where they could react and died anyway, and some cases where an attack happened and the channeler got away somehow. You don't think the Light would have put some thought into the destruction of these things?

 

Thats a fairly large assumption. Got any proof?

 

You don't need cold hard proof, just use your brain. What would you do if you were LTT and the Shadow had assassins that were apparently immune to the OP. You wouldn't think and try every possible way of killing them? Now, if you are also suggesting that I'm assuming channelers back then were more gifted, I'll just have to laugh.

 

The very fact that balefire would be an extremely destructive test is why I find it hard to believe that Aginor would not use it on the gholam. I guess I just see Aginor thinking that if the gholam passes the balefire test, well then, voila! 

 

It's doubtful that Aginor would have done this, but even if he balefired a gholam he just created, it wouldn't be an extremely destructive test. The thing was just created, what could it have possibly affected?

 

YK.

 

 

 

[Gentled Ben]

It's doubtful that Aginor would have done this, but even if he balefired a gholam he just created, it wouldn't be an extremely destructive test. The thing was just created, what could it have possibly affected?

 

Okay, again...why wouldn't Aginor use the most destructive weave known to test a creation designed to be indestructible by weaves?

[YoungKing]

Okay, again...why wouldn't Aginor use the most destructive weave known to test a creation designed to be indestructible by weaves?

 

That's a good point. But if he intentionally created the gholam knowing it was immune to the OP it shouldn't have been necessary to test it. Just in case?

 

YK.

[Gentled Ben]

How do you know that it's immune unless you test it? What better way to test it than with balefire?  ;)

[YoungKing]

How do you know that it's immune unless you test it? What better way to test it than with balefire? 

 

Well I could see him perhaps trying it, but only if he had the means to create more. We know only six were created, so maybe they were too valuable to test it on.

 

In my strange little head it seems natural that someone would have tried balefiring one of these creatures sometime during their existence, just perhaps not Aginor, but it's all speculation.

 

YK.

[Gentled Ben]

If they aren't actually immune to the OP, if they can be destroyed with balefire, then they really aren't of much greater value than any other shadowspawn. Less, perhaps, as apparently, other shadowspawn do what they were designed to do.  :P

If the gholam resist everything but balefire, then they are close, but not quite. Aginor, based on his reaction to the unexpected myrddraal, strikes me as the type who tries to be thorough.

[bjclinton]

I dont think Luckers is being argumentative, he's making valide points....the common argument against BF hurting a Gholam seems to be "well, if that would work, it would have been tried in the AoL."

 

Frankly, I also have a hard time accepting that. We have no proof either way, so to truly theorize, we can only rely on facts. Here's what we know:

 

1. The OP cannot touch a Gholam

2. Women cannot sense Saidin and Men cannot sense Saidar w/out the use of a TA. (nor can they sense their residues....if you believe that to be true, please provide a quote).

3. Moiraine can sense RA's residue of the use of BF, which logically means it is what results from a weave, not an actual weave itself per se.

4. If BF is a "weapon" created as a result of the weave used to create it, and thus not the actual OP but something created from it, then it should be able to destroy a Gholam in theory.

5. Still leaves the problem of being quick enough to react in the 1/10th of a second that you'd have to try and hit it w/ BF....

 

Even if Matt does end up killing a Gholam somehow, I will still believe based on above that BF could theoretically work until/unless proof is shown in AMoL that would indicate otherwise. And that proof would determine one way or the other new information if BF is in fact a weave or not....

 

....but i dont see it happening because then they'd have to explain how a woman could sense a man's actual weaves made from saidan....

[Luckers]

I don't understand why you always have to argue Luckers.

 

Because it fills me with warm happy's.

 

Oh, and your blanket dismissal was wrong.

 

You seem to repeat this notion that Rand stumbled on some sort of weave that could cut balefire in half, yet is never mentioned again? Come on, sometimes its ok to use common sense like everyone else instead of trying to make an argument out of nothing.

 

I suggested that as the least likely possibility out of a sequence of three, and clearly stated that I did not hold with it. But whilst we are on it, in that sequence of time Rand stumbled accross several powerful weaves that were never used again because he could not remember how. The cloud of lightning that hunted down shadowspawn for instance.

 

I'm at a loss at what you were trying to do with that comment? Cast asperations on me for not using common sense by raising a point that i specifically stated was enourmously unlikely?

 

The ban of balefire has nothing to do with this. It's irrelevant.

 

Cute, but deeply inaccurate. The ban of balefire resulted because the effect of balefire grew to the point that the entirety of existence nearly disolved. The ban in particular resulted without any form of discussion thus underlining how calamatous the unravelling of the Age Lace was.

 

And you think it is some way irrelevant to the discussion of why balefire was not then used mere years after? I find I am missing your logic there.

 

Yes because if you use balefire, the world ends. In extensive use yes, but simply to kill one thing, and it comes down to "destroy the word or die"? Also, I'm not assuming that every target had time to think, there would be cases when it was impossible to react and the person died, cases where they could react and died anyway, and some cases where an attack happened and the channeler got away somehow. You don't think the Light would have put some thought into the destruction of these things?

 

Certainly, and as an aspect of thought it would have occured to them that using balefire again whilst the Pattern was still so unstable is not the wisest of actions.

 

Furthermore, you speak about 'simply killing one thing'. At this stage existence had come so close to unravelling that two sides in a war for their very existence stopped using balefire. There is no 'simply killing one thing' in that state. They didn't cut back on use, they didn't limit the power they put into balefire--they stopped. Both sides, without discussion or any attempt at reasoning.

 

What's that guy gonna say? "But no Mr Age Lace sir, you can't unravel. I didn't use any of that balefire before, i only just used a little bit now, so that's ok, right?"

 

You don't need cold hard proof, just use your brain. What would you do if you were LTT and the Shadow had assassins that were apparently immune to the OP. You wouldn't think and try every possible way of killing them? Now, if you are also suggesting that I'm assuming channelers back then were more gifted, I'll just have to laugh.

 

Well, for unilateral dismissal like yours, yeah mate you do need cold hard proof. And frankly, even just the establishment of likelyhood seems out of the realm here.

 

As for your question... what would I do if a shadows assasin was immune to the One Power. Hmm... to use balefire and finish destroying the universe that we so nearly did just so recently, or not?

 

And yeah, I would say that your making an assumption there. In some ways channelers back then were more trained, but the Wonder Girls and Rand have both displayed conciderable level of ingenuity when it comes to the Power exceeding that displayed by the Forsaken, and unless i misremember but the Forsaken have pretty much had their asses handed to them in every single confrontation to date. So laugh away my friend. I'll giggle a little too, but it won't be with you.

 

It's doubtful that Aginor would have done this, but even if he balefired a gholam he just created, it wouldn't be an extremely destructive test. The thing was just created, what could it have possibly affected?

 

The entirety of existence?

 

It's doubtful that Aginor would have done this, but even if he balefired a gholam he just created, it wouldn't be an extremely destructive test. The thing was just created, what could it have possibly affected?

 

Okay, again...why wouldn't Aginor use the most destructive weave known to test a creation designed to be indestructible by weaves?

 

Well, again, the risk to reality. This wasn't an empty risk, they came damn close to destroying existence. So close that nearly four thousand years after Aes Sedai still don't even think of using it. Now caste back to a smattering of years after, when reality was still deeply unstable.

 

So... to use it for a test? It seems pretty stupid for me. I mean, provided Aginor even thought about balefire given that it proved itself against weaves, seriously risking the destruction of the universe just to find out if it worked? I mean he had to know that almost no one would risk using balefire at that stage.

 

How do you know that it's immune unless you test it? What better way to test it than with balefire?  ;)

 

Flows of air. Fireballs. Anything other than something that could destroy the entire universe. Or indeed, anything that even if it did effect the gholam, still left it alive, or at least coporeal so that the failure could be studied.

 

If they aren't actually immune to the OP, if they can be destroyed with balefire, then they really aren't of much greater value than any other shadowspawn. Less, perhaps, as apparently, other shadowspawn do what they were designed to do. 

If the gholam resist everything but balefire, then they are close, but not quite. Aginor, based on his reaction to the unexpected myrddraal, strikes me as the type who tries to be thorough.

 

Well it is still incredibly fast and strong and immune to pretty much everything channelers can throw at it. Even if it isn't immune to balefire, why would'nt they still use it.

 

 

[Stooge]

Wasn't one of the female forsaken almost killed by a gholam? Would a one of the forsaken hesitate to use every weave at their disposal to stay alive; several of their pov's have highlighted the fact that they are unwilling to die for the DO.