3 men talking . . . Perrin looking.

[Kadere]

On a bridge slightly below him, and much closer than the ramp where the woman had been, a man suddenly appeared, tall and dark and slender, the silver in his black hair giving him a distinguished look, his dark green coat thickly embroidered with golden leaves.

 

Chapter 4: Shadows Sleeping, The Dragon Reborn

 

"Be silent, boy," the dark man in the gold encrusted coat said calmly. He was a handsome man, almost as good-looking as Galad and nearly as youthful-seeming, despite the white streaking his temples, but built on a bigger scale with more than Rand's height and very nearly Perrin's shoulders.

 

Chapter 46: A Message out of the Shadow, The Dragon Reborn

 

He was a tall man, large, dark and handsome despite the white streaking his temples.

 

Prologue: The First Sparks Fall, The Fires of Heaven

 

His hawk-nosed profile was handsome enough, though not quite the sort to make every woman's heart beat faster. In a way, "almost" and "not quite" had been the story of Demandred's life.

 

Prologue: The First Message, Lord of Chaos

 

The second and third quote describe Rahvin, while the 4th describes Demandred. All of Rahvin's descriptions mention the silver in his hair, the fact that he's tall and slinder. Given this, and the fact that Demandred has nothing to do with the plot of The Dragon Reborn, while Rahvin has plenty, I find it conclusive to being Rahvin in TAR.

[RobertAlexWillis]

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,20974.0.html

 

Right there.

 

I have to admit ... thats the first time I've heard "armchair general" and "worth reading" applied in the same context ... lol ...

[cloglord]

Uh-huh ... you've got nothing that matches the description either.

 

Demandred is tall and in his middle years.  The man in question is tall and distinguished.  Sounds like two things that match to me.

 

Look ... obviously, nothing short of a quote from Jordan saying "Perrin saw Rahvin talking to Be'lal in Tel'aran'rhiod" is going to convince you, so this is indeed, as was suggested, the time to drop it.

 

So, for the record, you have no answer to my questions, right?  Just wanted to make sure before you gave up. ;)

 

 

The second and third quote describe Rahvin, while the 4th describes Demandred. All of Rahvin's descriptions mention the silver in his hair, the fact that he's tall and slinder. Given this, and the fact that Demandred has nothing to do with the plot of The Dragon Reborn, while Rahvin has plenty, I find it conclusive to being Rahvin in TAR.

 

Nope, they don't all describe the same thing, The First calls the hair gray and does not mention streaks, and neither the 2nd nor 3rd quote call Ravhin slender, in fact, they call him "built on a larger scale" and "large" perspectively.  Kadere, when was the last time you saw a slender man who was "built on a larger scale" than Perrin?

[cloglord]

As for a connection between Damandred and Tear, I can think of two possibilities.  On is the oft questioned, "events to the south" quote.  But here is one that I think has not been hashed and re-hashed so thouroughly. 

 

LoC Prolouge:  "'A dusty jumble of useless rubbish, so I've heard." Demandred said in dismissal.  'The Tariens gathered anything with even a rumored connection to the Power.' 

 

Messanna suspected he had more than hearsay to go on.  She also suspected there was a trap for men woven around the Great Hold, too, or Demandred would have had his sa'angreal and launched himself at Rand al'Thor long since."

 

Messanna, Demandred's ally, suspects that Demandred has an interest in Tear.  If he really was interested in getting into the great hold, it would explain why there was an argument between him and Be'lal, and how Demandred would have "more than hearsay to go on."

[Majsju]

LoC Prolouge:  "'A dusty jumble of useless rubbish, so I've heard." Demandred said in dismissal.  'The Tariens gathered anything with even a rumored connection to the Power.' 

 

Messanna suspected he had more than hearsay to go on.  She also suspected there was a trap for men woven around the Great Hold, too, or Demandred would have had his sa'angreal and launched himself at Rand al'Thor long since."

 

Messanna, Demandred's ally, suspects that Demandred has an interest in Tear.  If he really was interested in getting into the great hold, it would explain why there was an argument between him and Be'lal, and how Demandred would have "more than hearsay to go on."

 

Both comments are from LOC, quite some time after TDR. And thus, quite some time after Be'lals death.

You can't seriously believe Demandred would be so full of himself that he felt he could wander straight into the great hold while Be'lal was alive. The books make it quite clear that the forsaken who have placed themselves as rulers are very possessive of their turfs. Both Rahvin and Sammael had loads of wards set to warn against the tiniest whiff of a male channeling, you don't think Be'lal, who knew he would get a visit by Rand, had the same? Even Ishy waited to make an appearance until Be'lal was dead.

 

As for the "events to the south" comment, this comes slightly after Demandred recieves his orders to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule". It doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to connect those two. And even if Demandred had been fiddling around before ecieveing his orders, nothing that deserves being mentioned happens in Tear until the rebellion, quite some time after Be'lals death.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

So, for the record, you have no answer to my questions, right?  Just wanted to make sure before you gave up.

 

Really ... well, ok.  You asked for it.

 

Demandred is tall and in his middle years.  The man in question is tall and distinguished.  Sounds like two things that match to me.

 

Tall?  You're basing the similarity on him being tall!!!??  My god, have you read these books?  Anyone under 6'2" is a rarity, unless they're female.  Thats purely pathetic.

 

And "middle aged" is a far cry from "distinguished".  We don't know that Demandred looks "distinguished".  He could look "bookish", or "contemplative", or "foppish".  We don't know.  Because HE ISN'T DESCRIBED IN DETAIL ANYWHERE!

 

However, many people consider dark hair with a little white or silver at the temples quite distinguished-looking.  Sound familiar?  Thats from an actual description of someone that is written in the books.

 

And for the record, Rahvin is not "'built on a larger scale' than Perrin".  Mat's description says he was built on a larger scale than GALAD.  To quote ... again ...

 

"He was a handsome man, almost as good looking as Galad and nearly as youthful-seeming, despite the white streaking his temples, but built on a bigger scale, with more than Rand's height, and very nearly Perrin's shoulders."

 

(TDR ch 46)

 

More than Rand's height ... and very nearly, as in slightly less than, Perrin's shoulders.  Put shoulders slightly less than Perrin's, on a man at least 6 or 7 inches taller than Perrin, and you get a man who is, proportionally to Perrin, slender.

 

This isn't the first time I've pointed that out.  And you simply ignore it ... because it doesn't fit your theory.

 

You have a theory that requires Demandred to be there at that place, at that time.  So, you make the connection, and evidence (or lack of it) be damned. Good Lord ... I was trying to make peace, because I didn't see any point in continuing the conversation, not because I thought you were remotely ... REMOTELY right.

 

So, for the record, cloglord, I think you are being just plain blind.

 

Edited: I toned it down a bit.

[Tyrell]

I do find myself wondering, why Be'lal was such a massive idiot (other than the fact that once Rand was in that situation, he had to make it out of there alive).

 

I mean, he could have shielded Moiraine, easily, especially if he had an Angreal, though I don't think he had one, he could have easily found a certain fat man angreal with a little rummaging, placing him in a much better position, both amungst the forsaken (who, between them have 0.0 objects of the power at that time, and manage to up the number to 1, by somewhere around PoD) and to fight Rand. He could have just gone to the inn and grabbed, tortured and killed Moiraine at any time, he knew where she was afterall; why rely on an overly elaborate trap involving a small hedgehog? He could have shredded Perrin, pretty much ensuring the shadow's victory. But no.

 

He stands in the Heart of Stone, fights Rand a little bit, not bothering to do anything but channel a sword for himself, then gets his stupid ass balefired because he was too busy saying "oh you again, seems my trap failed, nevermind you silly so-called Aes-" *balefired* Stupid monalogue.

 

What I'm trying to say is how did Be'lal ever make it as one of the Chosen or as a General, either for the Light or Shadow if he isn't capable of seeing a chance for a reasonably risk-free tactical advantage and taking it.

 

You know where Perrin is, busy blacksmithing with his girlfriend.

 

-Proscribed course of action : Kill Him.

  -Risk : Minimal

  -Gain : Ultimate victory for the shadow

 

You knowhere Moiraine is, you have a load of Black Ajah at your command, you can choose to either:

 

-Set a trap for her

  -Risk : may not work

  -Gain : Moiraine dies, eventually

 

-Kill her, or capture her either personally or with your Black Ajah chums

  -Risk : Using the Black Ajah - none, Dooing it personally - Very little.

  -Gain : Moiraine captured and ready for torturing or killed properly.

 

You're in the Heart of Stone, waiting for Rand to show up.

 

-Proscribed course of action : Ready and invert a few deadly weaves ready throwing, and a shield or two, also search for anything useful in the Great Holding

  -Risk : none

  -Gain : Possibly an object of the power (cough fatman angreal), ready to kill Rand when he snags Callandor, ready for any interfearance (from other forsaken - I'm surprised more than just Ishamael didn't turn up ready to fight for Callandor to be honest - rather than Moiraine who he expects to be out of the way, but it would have worked just as well on Moiraine).

 

[cloglord]

You can't seriously believe Demandred would be so full of himself that he felt he could wander straight into the great hold while Be'lal was alive.

 

No, but if he thought that he could wheedle/bully/convince Be'lal to let him into the great hold, he might set up a meeting with him, a meeting in a neutral place, a place like TAR say?  Maybe that conversation became heated, and they started yelling at each other?

 

Tall?  You're basing the similarity on him being tall!!!??  My god, have you read these books?  Anyone under 6'2" is a rarity, unless they're female.  Thats purely pathetic.

 

Pathetic, like RJ and science.

 

RJ said that Rand was 6'6". 

 

I found 13 characters in the whole series that were as tall as Rand, and of those 9 of them are Aiel.  Rand, Ravhin, Demandred, LTT, Bael, Dhearic, Erim, Nadric (The shaido who tries to rape Faile,) Rolan & Gaul (by virtue of being "a head taller than Perrin,") Cassin & Corman & Camar throw away Aiel characters.  Indirian, Clan chief of the Codarra Aiel, gives us the average male height for Aiel.  he is "He is average height for an Aiel, half a hand shorter than Rand."  Assuming that a hand is 4 inches in randland like it is here, then the average height for male aiel is 6'4".  Which clearly places them in a different category than average Randlanders.

 

(I used the averages for black males, who tend to be taller, to give you the benefit of the doubt.)

 

6'6" is well above the 95th percentile for black males in the US.  Concidering that to that point in the stories, Perrin has seen, (including Rand,) a grand total of two Aiel, I think that Demandred would have been uncategorically described as "tall."

 

However, many people consider dark hair with a little white or silver at the temples quite distinguished-looking.  Sound familiar?  Thats from an actual description of someone that is written in the books.

 

Yes, and that description is specifically denied to Ravhin by Mat.  "youthful-seeming, despite the white streaking his temples"  sound familiar?

 

And for the record, Rahvin is not "'built on a larger scale' than Perrin".  Mat's description says he was built on a larger scale than GALAD.  To quote ... again ...

 

"He was a handsome man, almost as good looking as Galad and nearly as youthful-seeming, despite the white streaking his temples, but built on a bigger scale, with more than Rand's height, and very nearly Perrin's shoulders."

 

(TDR ch 46)

 

As you rightly point out, Mat says that Ravhin is built on a "bigger scale" than Galad. However, Perrin's perspective has little to do with it.  Just because I am overweight does not mean that I call people who are less overweight than I, "skinny."  Perrin is well aware of his size, he comments on it often, it does not mean that he describes everyone in relation to himself.    I can't see how you could think that a 7'foot tall man with very nearly "blacksmith shoulders," (The gold standard for shoulders btw,) could ever, under any circumstances be described as "slender." 

 

You have a theory that requires Demandred to be there at that place, at that time.  So, you make the connection, and evidence (or lack of it) be damned. Good Lord ... I was trying to make peace, because I didn't see any point in continuing the conversation, not because I thought you were remotely ... REMOTELY right.

 

IIRC correctly, I haven't mentioned that theory once, in this entire exchange.  I am not defending this point, because, I have an agenda, I'm defending it, because, no one else will, and because it doesn't make sense, no matter how hard you try, for Ravhin to be a giant/slender man with streaks of white/gray (depending on how the light strikes it,) who is youthfully distinquished.  Demandred is ,IMO, the next most likely person to have been meeting Be'lal, BECAUSE his admittedly sparse description, does not have the types of contradictions that Ravhin's does, AND because he has the means and opportunity.

 

Think about it, ONLY male forsaken, (or slayer) would have been in a position to have made such a meeting, and Slayer would not have been likely to have been yelling at one, let alone 2 of the forsaken.  Since we know that Ishy and Be'lal were at that meeting, and that aginor and balthamel were dead, that leaves Sammael, Demandred, Ravhin, and Asmodean as possible suspects.  We can throw Sammael right out, as he is neither tall nor black-haired. Asmo, IS described as tall and dark-haired and in his middle years.  Demandred, is not described well, and Ravhin's description doesn't match.  From that, I'd conclude that Be'lal was meeting with Asmodean.  In either case, Ravhin is third on that list.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Concidering that to that point in the stories, Perrin has seen, (including Rand,) a grand total of two Aiel, I think that Demandred would have been uncategorically described as "tall."

 

I'm not saying that Demandred is not tall.  I'm saying that so many people fall into the category "tall", that using that as a basis for comparison is ludicrous.  It means nothing, because it doesn't narrow the field down appreciably.  ALL the Forsaken males, including Sammael, who seems to be the shortest, would be "tall" in Perrin's experience.  So the fact that the person Perrin saw is "tall" means absolutely zero.  And that is the ONLY connection you can make.  So, the ONLY connection you can make means absolutely nothing.

 

Yes, and that description is specifically denied to Ravhin by Mat.  "youthful-seeming, despite the white streaking his temples"  sound familiar?

 

Yeah ... um ... how does "youthful-seeming" preclude "distinguished"? 

 

As you rightly point out, Mat says that Ravhin is built on a "bigger scale" than Galad. However, Perrin's perspective has little to do with it.

 

LOL ... except in the sense that he is the one doing the describing ...  ::)  ... but go on.

 

I can't see how you could think that a 7'foot tall man with very nearly "blacksmith shoulders," (The gold standard for shoulders btw,) could ever, under any circumstances be described as "slender."

 

Then you don't understand the definition of "slender", which is sad, because I provided it earlier.  Let me do so again.

 

"Having little width in proportion to the length or height"

 

The key is "in proportion".  And "in proportion" to Perrin (who is doing the describing, here) Rahvin is considerably taller, and slightly thinner.  "Slender".

 

Asmo, IS described as tall and dark-haired and in his middle years.  Demandred, is not described well, and Ravhin's description doesn't match.  From that, I'd conclude that Be'lal was meeting with Asmodean.  In either case, Ravhin is third on that list.

 

Rahvin fits the description precisely.  The ONLY thing that is even marginally disputable is the silver-vs-white thing, and frankly, cloglord, you're silly for clinging to that.  Different people see the same hair as silver in one light, and white in another, all the time.  Perrin's ability to see well doesn't stop the environment from affecting his sight.  Its not like his eyes have a built in spectrometer.  The gaudiness of the clothes match both the propensities AND style of Rahvin (heavy on the gold, heavy on the gems), he is tall  ::) , and he has a reason to be there THAT IS COVERED IN THE BOOKS.  Which Demandred does not.  Demandred only has a reason to be there in your theory, which you are not actively defending  ::) .

 

Now that we have recycled these arguments ONCE AGAIN, I'm going to drop the subject.  If that means you think you're right, well, you're entitled to think so.  ::)

[Majsju]

No, but if he thought that he could wheedle/bully/convince Be'lal to let him into the great hold, he might set up a meeting with him, a meeting in a neutral place, a place like TAR say?  Maybe that conversation became heated, and they started yelling at each other?

 

So he would have a heated argument with Be'lal in TDR, but three books later he still has not approached Mesaana, his ally, regarding the same issue? He thinks that Be'lal is so certain he will lay his hands on Callandor that he will happily share with another forsaken?

Somehow I must have missed the chapter where Be'lal is described as the great altruist...

[cloglord]

Yeah ... um ... how does "youthful-seeming" preclude "distinguished"? 

 

You used the white in Ravhin's hair as evidence that he matched the "distinguished" description that Perrin gave the man in TAR.  Since the adjective "distinguished" is most often used to describe an older person, a person who has had a chance to make a distinction between themselves and their peers, it belies the term "youthful-seeming."  This word seems to be supported by the fact that Mat calls Ravhin "youthful-seeming," despite the streaks of white in his hair.

 

Then you don't understand the definition of "slender", which is sad, because I provided it earlier.  Let me do so again.

 

"Having little width in proportion to the length or height"

 

The key is "in proportion".  And "in proportion" to Perrin (who is doing the describing, here) Rahvin is considerably taller, and slightly thinner.  "Slender".

 

You and I have adressed the issue of condescention before, from both sides, and here is rears its head again.  I have been speaking the English language my whole life, and while I have not yet mastered it, the idea that I don't know what the word "slender" means is insulting.  Here's another definition.

 

From Miriam-webster

slender

 

Main Entry:slen·der \ˈslen-dər\

Function:adjective Etymology:Middle English sclendre, slendre, from Anglo-French esclendreDate:14th century

1 a: spare in frame or flesh; especially : gracefully slight b: small or narrow in circumference or width in proportion to length or height

 

Clearly, the first definition does not apply to Ravhin at all, and considering that Ravhin has "massive shoulders and a deep chest" TFOH Ch1 (pg 53 in my copy) it would seem that his circumference is a bit more than just the width of his shoulders.  Ravhin would have to be a 7' scarecrow to fit the definition of "slender."

 

The ONLY thing that is even marginally disputable is the silver-vs-white thing, and frankly, cloglord, you're silly for clinging to that.

 

Silver Vs. White.  White streaks Vs. Gray, without mention of streaks.  Slender Vs. Massive shoulders and a deep chest.  Youthful-seeming Vs. Distinguished.  Dismissing these things doesn't make them any less disputable.

 

The gaudiness of the clothes match both the propensities AND style of Rahvin (heavy on the gold, heavy on the gems)

 

They also match the propensities AND style of Asmodean.

 

he is tall

 

So is Asmodean, (with the added benefit of not being freakishly tall like Ravhin apparently is.)

 

and he has a reason to be there THAT IS COVERED IN THE BOOKS.

 

Firstly, I am not convinced on this, despite the fact that you appear to have mistakenly hit the CAPS lock.  Ravhin seems to think that the girls were sent by someone to foil Be'lal's plans not as bait.  He does not know that Elayne is one of the three that was sent, until Comar tells him of it.  He displays an obvious dislike for Be'lal's planning methods, a dislike that undermines the idea that they are planning together, especially since he is unsure what effect Be'lal's plans would have on his own if Elayne were taken.  He also is unsure what aims that Be'lal has beyond Callanor, and this lack of knowledge is enough to prevent him from even attempting to find the girls himself.  Doesn't sound like they were planning together at all.

 

Secondly, why does everything have to have a POV in the books to be likely?  We know from Asmo's knowledge of Graendal's hideout, and his admission of having been in Arad Doman, that he has likely met with Graendal at some point after his release.  Do we need to have an on screen moment to suppose this?  No.  we don't.  Maybe, Asmodean was meeting Be'lal for reasons similar to the ones he had for meeting Graendal, or maybe Demandred was meeting Be'lal because they shared common interests in the execution of war.  Simply, you have a theory as to why Ravhin and Be'lal would be meeting, ONE THAT IS NOT COVERED IN THE BOOKS, and you don't seem to want to actively defend.  Once again, your say so does not make something cannon, and if you refuse to be open minded enough to get past your assumptions of correctness, then for once in this thread we agree, we aren't getting anywhere.

 

 

 

 

[Majsju]

He displays an obvious dislike for Be'lal's planning methods, a dislike that undermines the idea that they are planning together, especially since he is unsure what effect Be'lal's plans would have on his own if Elayne were taken.

 

Yes, he dislikes what Be'lal is doing. Incidently, Be'lal and the man he met in T'A'R were shouting at eachother. Kinda like, I don't know, someone who strongly disagrees with the other...

Meanwhile, we have a grand total of zero credible connections between Demandred and be'lal, so why would he be there involved in a shouting-game? Sleeping for +3000 years made him feel like practising his command voice perhaps?

[cloglord]

Meanwhile, we have a grand total of zero credible connections between Demandred and be'lal, so why would he be there involved in a shouting-game?

 

Zero?  Do you mean zero except for a shared history of being peers in the Aol, their shared positions as military leaders under LTT, their dual betrayals of the side of the light, their shared status during the War of Power as forsaken, Their common imprisonment, and the fact that they both were interested in Tear? 

 

Sleeping for +3000 years made him feel like practising his command voice perhaps?

 

I'm pretty grumpy when I get up in the morning too.  By your rationale, Ravhin would have no reason to yell at Be'lal either.

[Majsju]

Zero?  Do you mean zero except for a shared history of being peers in the Aol, their shared positions as military leaders under LTT, their dual betrayals of the side of the light, their shared status during the War of Power as forsaken, Their common imprisonment, and the fact that they both were interested in Tear? 

 

So, after waking up to a world where the Dragon is reborn and TG lurking around the corner, the first thing on their mind is to start yelling about something that might have happened +300 years ago?

And Demandreds "interest" in tear...Right. If  Demandred actually did what Mesaana suspected, and tried to sneak into the Great Hold, it was sometime after Rands departure from Tear in TSR. He have heard the rumours of the collection there, knows neither Rand nor other Forsaken is there, and decides to have a look.

If the argument in T'A'R had been between Be'lal and Demandred regarding the Great Hold, it would have been Be'lal placing the traps, knowing about Demandreds interest. But he didn't.

 

I'm pretty grumpy when I get up in the morning too.  By your rationale, Ravhin would have no reason to yell at Be'lal either.

 

Except as someone wrote earlier in this thread, Rahvin disliked Be'lals plans...

[cloglord]

So, after waking up to a world where the Dragon is reborn and TG lurking around the corner, the first thing on their mind is to start yelling about something that might have happened +300 years ago?

 

Do you have a family?  Ever argued with someone before?  The wrost arguments are between people who have known each other a long time, and generally theytend to drag up things from their history.  Here's a hypothetical for you.  I go to my neighbor's house, and ask him if I can borrow his Sa'ang...drill from his Great Hol..garage.  He says no, because last time I didn't ask to borrow his Sa'an...drill, I just snuck into his Great Hol..garage and took it without asking, I get mad, and I bring up what a lazy #&%@ he is and that he needs to mow his grass, a fight ensues...

 

And Demandreds "interest" in tear...Right. If  Demandred actually did what Mesaana suspected, and tried to sneak into the Great Hold, it was sometime after Rands departure from Tear in TSR.

 

Or he could have gone to ask Be'lal, got into a fight, and then waited till after Rand left to try again.

 

If the argument in T'A'R had been between Be'lal and Demandred regarding the Great Hold, it would have been Be'lal placing the traps, knowing about Demandreds interest. But he didn't.

 

Uhmm, Be'lal did place a trap around the Stone of Tear.  Remember how the place was swarming with BA?  Do you think that Demandred could have gotten through Be'lal's defenses without him knowing about it?  Ravhin didn't even think he could get away with entering the city without getting caught in Be'lal's net. 

 

Except as someone wrote earlier in this thread, Rahvin disliked Be'lals plans...

 

Thanks for misquoting me, I aprreciate it. 

 

He displays an obvious dislike for Be'lal's planning methods

 

Rhavin disliked Be'lal's methods, not his plans.  He didn't know about his plans, except that he appeared to be planning to use callanor as bait for Rand.  A pretty easy guess for anyone to make.

[Majsju]

Do you have a family?  Ever argued with someone before?  The wrost arguments are between people who have known each other a long time, and generally theytend to drag up things from their history.  Here's a hypothetical for you.  I go to my neighbor's house, and ask him if I can borrow his Sa'ang...drill from his Great Hol..garage.  He says no, because last time I didn't ask to borrow his Sa'an...drill, I just snuck into his Great Hol..garage and took it without asking, I get mad, and I bring up what a lazy #&%@ he is and that he needs to mow his grass, a fight ensues...

 

So, lets pretend that it was Demandred and Be'lal, shouting about some grudge they have been keeping for +3000 years. What exactly does that do for the plot? Showing Demandred, only to put him back in his box until he appears in LOC? Establish a connection between Be'lal and Demandred that leads to absolutely nothing because Be'lal dies later in the book?

 

Or he could have gone to ask Be'lal, got into a fight, and then waited till after Rand left to try again.

And Be'lal trusted that because he had shouted a bit at Demandred, Demandred would not make any attempts to sneak into the Great Hold behind his back? Be'lal, the forsaken famous for being able to make complicated plans could not figure out that setting a trap protecting the Great Hold just might be a good idea?

 

Uhmm, Be'lal did place a trap around the Stone of Tear.  Remember how the place was swarming with BA?  Do you think that Demandred could have gotten through Be'lal's defenses without him knowing about it?  Ravhin didn't even think he could get away with entering the city without getting caught in Be'lal's net. 

 

 

Swarming with BA? Liandrin and her gang arrived shortly before Rand, and those not occupied shielding the wondergirls were not even invited to help Be'lal deal with Rand. Some trap...

 

So' Demandred would fight with Be'lal because he wanted to get his hands on something from a collection currently owned by Be'lal. Then he would wait for Be'lal to die and Rand to leave to try to sneak into the Great Hold. But not once think of asking Mesaana, his ally, if she can snatch a little something from the WT for him?

 

Rhavin disliked Be'lal's methods, not his plans.  He didn't know about his plans, except that he appeared to be planning to use callanor as bait for Rand.  A pretty easy guess for anyone to make.

 

So, Be'lal is doing something Rahvin dislikes, and you can't see why Rahvin would have a reason to get into a heated argument with Be'lal?

But you don't have any problems inventing a reason for Demandred to get into an argument from a vague comment from a third persons POV?

[cloglord]

So, lets pretend that it was Demandred and Be'lal, shouting about some grudge they have been keeping for +3000 years. What exactly does that do for the plot? Showing Demandred, only to put him back in his box until he appears in LOC? Establish a connection between Be'lal and Demandred that leads to absolutely nothing because Be'lal dies later in the book?

 

No it makes a connection between Demandred and Tear, a connection that Messana thinks exists, and that sammael may or may not have alluded to with his "events in the South," comment.  Beyond that, what good did a be'lal Ravhin connection do, did Be'lal die any later for him?

 

And Be'lal trusted that because he had shouted a bit at Demandred, Demandred would not make any attempts to sneak into the Great Hold behind his back? Be'lal, the forsaken famous for being able to make complicated plans could not figure out that setting a trap protecting the Great Hold just might be a good idea?

 

Who said he didn't?  Maybe the reason why the 11 BA sisters didn't help Be'lal is becasue they had been charged by him to guard the Great Holding.  Can you find one shred of evidence that suggests that isn't what they were doing?  Can you find one thing that says that Be'lal didn't set a trap or wards that would have warned him of a break in?

 

Swarming with BA? Liandrin and her gang arrived shortly before Rand,

 

Uhm, no, Siuan tells the girls on the 24th of Aine (Steven cooper's timeline) that, "Liandrin left the Tower some months ago, and twelve other-women-went with her." 41 days after this, Rand shows up in the Stone.  The BA had been there for at least 3 months.

 

So, Be'lal is doing something Rahvin dislikes, and you can't see why Rahvin would have a reason to get into a heated argument with Be'lal?

 

I didn't say Ravhin disliked somthing that Belal was doing, I said that he disliked his methods, an indicator that he would not attempt to help Be'lal with those methods.  Asmodean tells us that Ravhin is a loner, and that he prefers to stand aside until the end.  Lanfear had to suprise him in his chambers to convince him to meet.  So why would he, an isolationist, plan with someone, especially someone that he distains as an impatient planner?  Why meet with him at all, if all they were going to do was yell at each other?

 

 

[Majsju]

No it makes a connection between Demandred and Tear, a connection that Messana thinks exists, and that sammael may or may not have alluded to with his "events in the South," comment. 

 

really doesn't take much for you to see a connection, eh? Mesaana thinks that Demandred might have paid a visit to the Great Hold at some point between the beginning of TSR and the beginning of LOC. In that case, every single character would have a "connection" to every single place they have ever visited, which would radically reduce the meaning of the word.

 

As for sammaels comment, what has happened in Tear that could possibly make him think of Demandred? Only thing that strikes as even a remote possibility is the rebellion. Something that started as a direct response to rand seizing control of Tear, which means it is hardly something Demandred would have discussed with Be'lal.

 

Beyond that, what good did a be'lal Ravhin connection do, did Be'lal die any later for him?

 

Looking at the actual plot, Perrin sees four forsaken in T'A'R. Excluding the mystery man, three of them are important players in TDR. The fourth player is Rahvin, Demandred is not mentioned in TDR, not even in the glossary. Establishing a conflict between Rahvin and Be'lal works to add to his decision to send an assassin after the wondergirls. A decision that makes Mat and Thom go to Tear, something that is crucial to the plot.

Meanwhile, Demandred does not become a player until LOC. Whatever dealings he might have had with Be'lal has become quite irrelevant at that point.

 

Who said he didn't?  Maybe the reason why the 11 BA sisters didn't help Be'lal is becasue they had been charged by him to guard the Great Holding.  Can you find one shred of evidence that suggests that isn't what they were doing?  Can you find one thing that says that Be'lal didn't set a trap or wards that would have warned him of a break in?

 

TSR says he did not set a trap, since both Rand and Moiraine had no problems walking in. Rand even channeled inside, without anything happening to him.

Sure, Be'lal could have set a ward instead of a trap, but since he would first and foremost have to protect against other forsaken, that seems kinda stupid. Setting a ward when those you wish to protect against can Travel means you have to be sure you can Travel there yourself in an instant, 24/7. And setting 11 halftrained children to protect against a forsaken? Yeah, that fits with the attitude we've seen the forsaken have against Aes Sedai...

 

Uhm, no, Siuan tells the girls on the 24th of Aine (Steven cooper's timeline) that, "Liandrin left the Tower some months ago, and twelve other-women-went with her." 41 days after this, Rand shows up in the Stone.  The BA had been there for at least 3 months.

 

Assuming they went directly to Tear just to sit and fiddle their thumbs. Considering that when they leave, it is well over a month before the wondergirls return to the WT, ie well over a month before the BA can learn about the task they are given. When they leave, Rand has been sitting around doing absolutely nothing for months. For all the Shadow knows, he could decide to do something completely different before going for Callandor, making Liandrins gang staying in Tear a complete waste of time and resources.

And you can't seriously believe Be'lal was allowed to snatch 13 BA + numerous ter'angreal from the WT just to protect his private stash of goodies.

 

I didn't say Ravhin disliked somthing that Belal was doing, I said that he disliked his methods, an indicator that he would not attempt to help Be'lal with those methods.  Asmodean tells us that Ravhin is a loner, and that he prefers to stand aside until the end.  Lanfear had to suprise him in his chambers to convince him to meet.  So why would he, an isolationist, plan with someone, especially someone that he distains as an impatient planner?  Why meet with him at all, if all they were going to do was yell at each other?

 

If you dislike how someone is doing somethiung, you indirectly dislike what he is doing.

Isolationist or not, if he thinks Be'lals plans might interfer with his own, he is quite likely to try to do something about it. Like, trying to talk Be'lal out of it. Even shout a little if needed.

Isolationist or not, Rahvin seems to be quite familiar with Be'lals plans. As if he has actually talked to Be'lal. Being an isolationist does not mean you completely cut yourself off from communication with others.

[cloglord]

really doesn't take much for you to see a connection, eh? Mesaana thinks that Demandred might have paid a visit to the Great Hold at some point between the beginning of TSR and the beginning of LOC. In that case, every single character would have a "connection" to every single place they have ever visited, which would radically reduce the meaning of the word.

 

That would be true, except that the number of places, that we the reader can absolutely place Demandred in are 2.  TAR and The Pit of Doom.  So anything that ties his anywhere is as good a connection as we have.  Messanna assumes he has an interest in the great holding, Sammael attributes "events in the south" to him.  Barring any other connections that i've forgotten, Tear is the best cited connection to Demandred of anywhere.

 

As for sammaels comment, what has happened in Tear that could possibly make him think of Demandred? Only thing that strikes as even a remote possibility is the rebellion.

 

And you are privvy to all the same information that Sammael was? 

 

Establishing a conflict between Rahvin and Be'lal works to add to his decision to send an assassin after the wondergirls

 

But it is not supported by the way that Ravhin reacts to Comar's news.  Bel'al is using the girls as bait, Ravhin thinks that they were sent to disrupt Bel'al's plans.  If it weren't for the fact that one of the girls was Elayne, he would have been happy to let the girls attempt to disrupt Be'lals plans.  It is the fact that Ravhin does not know what Be'lal's plan is, beyond baiting Rand with callanor, that prevents him from going after Elayne himself.

 

Sure, Be'lal could have set a ward instead of a trap, but since he would first and foremost have to protect against other forsaken, that seems kinda stupid. Setting a ward when those you wish to protect against can Travel means you have to be sure you can Travel there yourself in an instant, 24/7.

 

If Be'lal had set a trap, and Rand had fallen in to it, what would have happened?  Be'lal would have killed his key to callanor.  Why didn't Sammael, noted as being at his best at defense, ward Illian in boxes that killed channeling men, (like the one that Rand wove around Asmo in Rhuidean), instead of just warding the entire place?  Who knows? Maybe, Bel'al thought that a ward, and a group of BA watchdogs would be enough, until he could get there.  Maybe he warded the place so that it couldn't be traveled into, and set a little wooden hedgehog just inside the door?  Simply, you do not know enough about Be'lal's methods, motives, or the means at his disposal to know how the great hold was guarded.

And setting 11 halftrained children to protect against a forsaken? Yeah, that fits with the attitude we've seen the forsaken have against Aes Sedai...

 

Yes it does, untrained children are enough to keep the forsaken out of Rhuidean, the wagons in Carhien, and the Tower's storerooms.  They've said as much.

 

And you can't seriously believe Be'lal was allowed to snatch 13 BA + numerous ter'angreal from the WT just to protect his private stash of goodies.

 

Messanna was working with him, Graendal says as much in LoC Ch.6.  Hey, and guess what, she wasn't mentioned in TDR either!  Weird, I guess RJ didn't have some sort of weird rule that stated that everyone who made an impact on the plotline of a book had to be IN that book.  I guess, when Semhirage sent the trollocs to the stone of Tear to fight the ones that Sammael sent, she didn't have a connection to Tear either?  I mean she doesn't even show up until LoC right?  SO there's NO WaY she could have anything to do with an eariler book ::)

 

If you dislike how someone is doing somethiung, you indirectly dislike what he is doing.

 

No, not nessecarily.  There is more than one way to skin a cat.  I like adding things together to get the number 4, but I hate the number 3.  So I would support anyone going by the old ,2+2, method, but not support the guy messing around with 3's (which I hate) and 1's, (which I am ambivalent towards.)  In either case, I have no quarrel with the end results, but rather the methods.  The same can be applied to Ravhin's attitude toward's Be'lal.  He wants to see Rand dead, and doesn't care how it is done.  He has a plan to see it done, and Be'lal has a plan to see it done.  Ravhin disagrees with Be'lal's impatience, since Ravhin is a patient guy, who plans on sitting things out until the end.  It is not until the point that Be'lal's plan, using the daughter heir of Andor as bait, intrudes on his plan, that Ravhin loses his ambivalence to Be'lal.  Even then, he appears hesitant to involve himself against Be'lal's plan, because he doesn't want to fight, he wants to sit, alone, and wait.

 

isolationist does not mean you completely cut yourself off from communication with others.

 

Actually, Lanfear implies that very thing when she suprises him in his apartments in TFoH's prolouge.