Idea that just popped into my head

[Karrava]

Was just browsing the forum when this idea came into my head.

 

Has anyone considered the idea that rand will die at Tarmon gaidon of normal causes(anything sword, arrow, power whatever), but, as he is the spirit of LTT, the dragon, and artur hawkwing recognises him as one of the heroes of the horn, Is there the possibility of mat blowing the horn after his death and then Rand/lews/dragon spirit leading the forces of light to victory.

 

He couldnt just hang around in TAR till Tarmon Gaidon because he has been the one to almost solely unify the forces of the light and prepare them. This would fulfill the prophecy of his blood being spilt on the rocks as well.

 

One thing im not sure of though, i remember reading once that as Rahvin was balefired he could not be brough back, and the essence of him would have to wait to be spun out again naturaly, if Rand was balefired would the same thing apply or would he be able to wait in TAR to be called?

 

I dont really believe this, its just an idea. Is there anything ive forgotten?

[CUBAREY]

Only heroes tied to the Horn of Valerie wait in the Dream World there is no evidence that Rand is tied to the hor,.

[Karrava]

Read page 660-661 of TGH, when the heroes are summoned. Im not implying you dont know  like you said there isnt any definitive evidence that he is, but the language that is used and the way the scene plays out implys it.

[CUBAREY]

Yes Hawkwing recognizes Rand as LTT but this does not mean that they know each other from the Dream World. Hawkwing is an old soul that has lived many times not surprising that he may have lived a life in LTT lifetime or that in the turning of the wheel he remembers when the Dragon has called the Heores of the Horn before.  Remember Hawkwing, Bridget, etc. during their time in the Dream World remember all their past lives.  Nothing in the cited passage indicates that the Dragon is tied to the Horn or hang's out in the Dream World between lives.

[trakand_01]

What has to happen in order for you to become tied to the horn?

[RobertAlexWillis]

"Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages.  You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh."

 

Hawkwing to Rand al'Thor, TGH, ch 47.

 

That definitely indicates that the Dragon is one of them, CUBAREY.  Then there is the fact that Rand knew that there would only be about a hundred of them, and he recognized them all.  He didn't get that from Lews Therin ... Lews Therin never blew the Horn.

 

Incidentally, the fact that neither Perrin nor Mat had similar reactions to Rand's (knowing who all the Heroes are, being recognized by them, being unsurprised by the number, etc.) is indicative that they are NOT bound to the Wheel.  Otherwise, when Mat asked "Is this all of you?" Hawkwing could have said, "You would know yourself, could you but remember when you wore flesh, Gambler."

 

What has to happen in order for you to become tied to the horn?

 

The Pattern has to "decide" that it needs you again and again.  You can't choose it, and you can't refuse it.

[trakand_01]

So is it possible that any of our current characters (or those who have already been killed) fall into that criteria? Surely it stands to reason that the Dragon would be required over and over?

 

Mat surely would be a candidate for being tied to the horn?

[Majsju]

The Dragon is indeed one of the Heroes.

 

Q: "Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?"

A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this Soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "LTT", but apparently they've been hangin' together in T'A'R and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/stargate/8513/creator-horn.htm

[RobertAlexWillis]

So is it possible that any of our current characters (or those who have already been killed) fall into that criteria? Surely it stands to reason that the Dragon would be required over and over?

 

Mat surely would be a candidate for being tied to the horn?

 

Well, here we're very definitely getting into the realm of personal opinion, but, I don't think so.  Bravery is only one of qualifications ... plenty of very, very brave people don't ever get tied to the Wheel.  While Hawkwing does say that the Wheel sometimes added to their number ... I get the feeling that its about once every ten or fifteen turnings, and becoming rarer.  The Pattern has what it needs to turn through the Ages ... its not going to add people just because they're really super-cool (which Mat, of course, is).

 

That is, however, purely my personal opinion.  As far as I am aware,

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "LTT", but apparently they've been hangin' together in T'A'R and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

 

Sorry, but this only proves that the author interpreted Joran to say that Rand was Tied to the Horn and hanging out in TAR.  Another interpretation is that Hawkwing and Rand have been spun out together many times and since Hawkwing remembers all his lives he remembers Rands Soul (which he calls LTT because that is the etequette that he Hawkwing is used to).

[trakand_01]

But for Birgitte at least, there is a chance she can be tied to the Wheel once more?

[RobertAlexWillis]

So .. um ... CUBAREY ... you just skipped over my quote from the published books?

 

LOL ...

 

You know ... I'm as quick as anyone to point out the occasionally unreliable nature of second and third hand reports, like the one Maj quoted ... but when it gibes perfectly with whats in the published text?  Then I buy it.

 

The Dragon is bound to the Wheel.

 

But for Birgitte at least, there is a chance she can be tied to the Wheel once more?

 

Birgitte is still tied to the Wheel, and probably never was untied.  Every evidence is that Moghedien failed, because when Min saw Birgitte in the Royal Palace in WH, she saw multiple lifetimes of adventures with Gaidal still in Birgitte's future.  So, either Moghedien's weave didn't work as she hoped it would, or Birgitte has re-qualified.  I personally think its the first, but that is just my opinion.

[Davian93]

But for Birgitte at least, there is a chance she can be tied to the Wheel once more?

 

most likely Birgitte is still tied to the Wheel and the Horn and if she were to die everything would go back to normal.  Moggy's intent was to separate her from Gaidal Cain, not disconnect her from the Wheel/Horn. 

 

So, either Moghedien's weave didn't work as she hoped it would, or Birgitte has re-qualified.  I personally think its the first, but that is just my opinion.

 

I think Moggy's weave worked exactly how she wanted it too.  Her goal was to have Birgitte born before Gaidal in reversal of their pattern.  If you'll remember, Birgitte was always born afterwards and Moggy's promise to Birgitte was that she would make her weep forever due to separating her from Gaidal.  I don't have the quotes with me, but we had a similar discussion a couple months back at TL and this was the general conclusion based on all the available evidence.

[trakand_01]

Forgive me, I dont know much about Cain apart from what we hear from Birgitte. Is he a force to be reckoned with? What if he were forcibly torn from TAR also?

[Davian93]

Forgive me, I dont know much about Cain apart from what we hear from Birgitte. Is he a force to be reckoned with?

 

Short Answer: He's a Hero of the Horn known for his fearsome ability to fight particularly with two swords.  He must have done something fairly important to become a Hero.  Other than that we also know that he is physically unattractive, at least to women that like pretty boys, and traditionally always born before Birgitte.

[trakand_01]

Haha how amusing if he turned out to be Lan. I'd love to see that catfight.

[Majsju]

Quote:

 

This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "LTT", but apparently they've been hangin' together in T'A'R and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

 

Sorry, but this only proves that the author interpreted Joran to say that Rand was Tied to the Horn and hanging out in TAR.  Another interpretation is that Hawkwing and Rand have been spun out together many times and since Hawkwing remembers all his lives he remembers Rands Soul (which he calls LTT because that is the etequette that he Hawkwing is used to).

 

The quoted answer is in two parts. First they relate a direct answer. Then the author here interprets a specific part of that answer, it's quite clear from the text what is interpretation and what is not.

 

You know ... I'm as quick as anyone to point out the occasionally unreliable nature of second and third hand reports, like the one Maj quoted ... but when it gibes perfectly with whats in the published text?  Then I buy it.

 

I'm very careful with reports as well, but I've looked through the collection this came from, and found that I can confirm at least 90% of what's there, either because I've seen the original report, or because an answer goes with what I know RJ has aid elsewhere.