Mat's Luck

[Tyrell]

I find it interesting that Birgirte specifically refers to Mat as "the luckiest man alive" and the fact that she mentions him and his luck several times with regards to the whole question of Mat being a Hero.

[RobertAlexWillis]

What I was attempting to list out in my initial post were other irregularities that occured near the time of the Shadar Logoth incident- namely, the dreams (especially where Mat was identified). Jordan kept Mat's responses in the dreams under his hat.

 

Actually, Jordan didn't keep Mat's responses under his hat.  He had Mat tell them to Rand.  Mat touched the image of himself, and so Ba'alzamon knew who he is.

 

Why does it need to be more than that?  I mentioned earlier that there is a reason, in the story, to get POV's of Perrin and Rand's dreams; both of them would be getting important powers and fighting significant battles in Tel'aran'rhiod in future books.

 

Mat doesn't.  So we didn't need to go into his dreams.

 

Since we are aware that Talents crop up, Mat may- like Rand or Perrin- have a special ability that is fairly unique: an ability to sense chance or manipulate it.

 

That is certainly possible.  It would be massively boring ...  ;D and thats usually my department ... but it is certainly possible, again in the sense that nothing disproves it.  I'll talk about how I feel about negative proof later ...

 

the only firm start we know of as readers is the night in Tar Valon, with a potential episode while gambling in Shienar.

 

Actually, as readers, we get both his time dicing in Fal Dara in TGH, and Egwene's comment on his dicing with Hurin on the way back from Falme, in TDR before Mat was Healed.

 

I guess the problem I have with your idea is that its supported only in the sense that it can't be disproven.  Well ... there are a whole lot of ridiculous things that cannot really be disproven.  Take this, for example:

 

Mat's luck came from a man named Atlan Ticcity, a man from the Age of Legends preserved in a special stasis box (developed to preserve living humans, using technology that none of the Forsaken knew about). He was posing as a sailor on Domon's boat, following special instructions in a prophecy only he knows about.  He gave it to Mat by injecting him with a lucky-gene therapy, developed in secret, just before the end of the War of the Power.  Mat doesn't remember it, because it was given to him while he slept.

 

There is nothing in the text that can disprove that theory, because I've hedged it around with tons of conditions.  But it is simply not indicated.

 

Can I prove that there is no such thing as "the Dark One's luck"?  No.  Can I prove that Ba'alzamon didn't make a secret deal with Mat for reasons we don't know and to ends we can't see?  No.  But I would much prefer to look at what is actually in the book.

 

Jordan very carefully explains the source of the main characters' power, and more importantly, he makes the characters aware of it.  Rand can channel.  Perrin is a Wolfbrother.  Why would he obscure the source of Mat's luck?  What purpose does it serve?  The coincidence of timing is the only actual indication we have of any source for Mat's luck, and that coincidence points to the dagger.  While there were many things going on in that period of the story, carrying the Shadar Logoth dagger is the only one that matches the timing, and is unique to Mat.

 

she mentions him and his luck several times with regards to the whole question of Mat being a Hero.

 

If you mean Hero in the capitalized sense of Hero of the Horn ... when does that come up?  She knows he sounded it ... but nothing that I remember her saying indicated that he was tied to the Pattern ...

[Tyrell]

Oh no, she doesn't say that he was a hero; I'm just saying that, of all characters, it is her that specifically identifies luck as his defining characteristic.

[BrainFireBob]

I guess the problem I have with your idea is that its supported only in the sense that it can't be disproven.  Well ... there are a whole lot of ridiculous things that cannot really be disproven.  Take this, for example:

 

Which is my feeling regarding hand-waiving over it being the dagger. Mat's extreme luck does not begin with the dagger- his superluck to some extent may be dated to the removal of the dagger. If indicative of anything, it's that the removal of the dagger- either by method directly or through passive alteration (ie, the dagger was "denying" his luck)- is associated with his "special" luck abilities- such as hearing the dice.

 

EDIT: This is the reason for the popularity of the idea that Lanfear did something to Mat- more improbable than Ba'alzamon doing something, since it is far easier to make alterations in dreams than in reality- since she did . .something . .to him during his convalescence.

[cloglord]

There is only one piece of actual evidence to link anything with Mat getting super-lucky, and that is the correlation in timing between picking up the dagger, and getting a huge increase in luck.  It is the only thing that happened in the right time period that happened to him and none of the others.

 

I agree, however, it does not mean that the dagger granted him his luck, it means that the circumstances that caused his luck to appear happened at this time.  If it was granted him by the dagger, fine, but it is equally reasonable to claim that the emmergence of his luck was triggered by the presence of the dagger.  One possible non-dagger related reason given was the balazamon dreams, which occured with nearly the same timing that is attributed to the dagger.  Yet you take one for evidence of correlation based on timing, and dismiss the other out of hand.  You are arguing that the dagger is causal to Mat's luck, BFB is arguing that it is a mechanism, both are equally unsupported, as you both use the timing of Mat's possession of the dagger.  Now, if you could cite an example of SL taint causing an increase in luck then it could indicate that your position is better documented than BFB's.  However, BFB does and did cite instances of properties being carried with the soul, discussed how it relates to the role of memory within RJ's paradigm, cited the example of the dagger's effects on memory, AND and used the same[/] example of timing that you use, to validate his point.  I have yet to see you use any evidence that BFB has not used to advance your point any further than your say so.

 

Since there are no counter-indications, I feel comfortable saying that the causative correlation is, in my opinion  Roll Eyes , a fact.

 

But there are counterindications.  As BFB pointed out, there has been a fairly clearly outlined explaination of what the effects of the dagger are.  Both Verin and Moraine have explained the taint, and they did not mention any connection to luck.  The flawed example of Fain, might be considered, if you want to throw in Slayer's one time mention of his luck, but it could be just as easily explained by slayer not undersstanding the extent of Fain's new powers.  The best example of the effects of the taint on a normal person would be Liah.  The indications are that the taint made her, suspicious and forgetful, but ultimately did not prove lucky for her.

 

Mat's luck needs explanation. Mat's casual explanation simply pins down the timing he recalls, without necessitating a causal link. So we are left with investigating possibilities. So I went into the ones I see and the reasoning behind them, briefly. There may be more, and they're not all equally strong, but it's a process of elimination.

 

I agree.  Although my dislexia had some problems working out casual and causal  in the same sentence. ;D

 

Why would he obscure the source of Mat's luck?  What purpose does it serve?

 

for the same reason you give for not giving Mat a Balazamon dream POV, it isn't important that it be described in detail.  So it wasn't, it was casually tied, by way of timing, to the aquisition of the dagger.

 

The coincidence of timing is the only actual indication we have of any source for Mat's luck, and that coincidence points to the dagger.

 

But there is nothing indicating that the dagger causes his luck, it could just as easily be a mechanism for uncovering Mat's luck.  Nothing in the timing indicates this either way.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Mat's extreme luck does not begin with the dagger- his superluck to some extent may be dated to the removal of the dagger.

 

Except for what happened in Fal Dara and on the way back from Falme ...

 

The night in Tar Valon sticks out for two reasons ... one, the luck was definitely on full blast, but two, its the first time we get his POV during a "lucky" event.

 

It has always been significant to me that Mat immediately, and unequivocally associates the luck with the dagger ... and alternatives are never presented, in the books that follow.  Mat's memory was spotty ... but he had enough memory to associate the luck with events prior to his Healing and after picking up the dagger.  There had to have been a feeling of similarity for him to make that connection as immediately and unequivocally as he did.  He didn't wonder ... he thinks it as plain fact.

 

I guess that, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I simply trust Mat's feeling that the luck he experienced after picking up the dagger is both different from what came before, and the same as what happened in Tar Valon (and frequently afterward).  The author can't pass the actual feeling of it along to us to compare ... so he gives us a comparison from the only character with any point of reference at all, and then presents no alternatives.  Short of saying outright "Mat's luck came from the dagger", I don't see how much clearer he could have made it.

 

All this said, we are officially going in circles.

[Kura]

A thought occurred to me while watching this topic go around in circles. Another event falls into place with him loosing his memory and gaining his luck. Him being healed. Remember, he was really healed not once, but three times. Once in Camelyn, once in Fal Dara, and once in the White Tower.

 

The first time he was healed by Moraine, it was minor, it cleansed the taint, but it didn't break the bond, only contained it. In Fal Dara, much of the same, a much bigger healing, but without the dagger it wasn't complete, it doesn't mention him loosing more memories, but then again, he hadn't succumbed quite so far as he had the first time. After this, he gained minor luck, as RAW as pointed out on many occasions. The last healing, complete, taint gone, he gets super luck.

 

This all ties in to the part of mat's soul being inherently lucky. I like that one the best, and sorry RAW, but I don't buy into the Shadar Logoth taint giving him his luck. It seems clear that the taint of the dagger drew out chunks of him. However, lets liken it more to a disease that infects tissue, for sake of argument an operable cancer. The disease burrows into the tissue, and stays there, infecting and making things worse, much as the SL dagger did to Mat. When the disease is removed, say, by surgery, a bit of the surrounding tissue would be taken as well.

 

To put it simply, the healing was 'surgical', digging in and removing the taint, but taking surrounding healthy pieces just to be safe. These healthy pieces being foremost, mat's memory, but deeper than that, this reincarnation of his soul. Ending this analogy, the bare pieces of his soul show through, and thus, uuber luck. Nothing at first, since it was light, say, taking the skin; IE pieces of his memory. Second again scoops out these area, cutting out pieces of muscle so you can just barely see the bone beneath, and finally taking out chunks of the muscle, so the bones, namely his soul's innate luck, are open to the world.

 

This would explain his increasing luck, even in the beginning. He was always lucky, but just barely, it was buried deep within him. The luck was pushing just as hard, it just had more to work through. Forgive my over use of analogies, but like a (primitive) dam holding back a river. Sometimes the water might slosh over the top, and at the first healing it was worn down a little, at the second, the river managed to put some pinholes in the damn, until finally, it burst with the full healing.

 

I seem to be repeating myself, so enjoy.

[cloglord]

I like this, and it certainly adds a new aspect to a stalled discussion.

[RobertAlexWillis]

To put it simply, the healing was 'surgical', digging in and removing the taint, but taking surrounding healthy pieces just to be safe. These healthy pieces being foremost, mat's memory, but deeper than that, this reincarnation of his soul. Ending this analogy, the bare pieces of his soul show through, and thus, uuber luck. Nothing at first, since it was light, say, taking the skin; IE pieces of his memory. Second again scoops out these area, cutting out pieces of muscle so you can just barely see the bone beneath, and finally taking out chunks of the muscle, so the bones, namely his soul's innate luck, are open to the world.

 

Again, that is possible.  There is simply no way that it could ever be proven or disproven, unless Jordan left something in his notes.  There are no indications in the books of who or what Mat was or has been in previous lives.  There are some indications that he is not tied to the Wheel ... and possible indications that he was a battle leader in Manetheren in one previous life ... but none of this gives any indication as to whether or not "luck" is an innate part of his soul.

 

Jordan went out of his way to confirm that Rand and Perrin's abilities were innate, and tied to their souls.  He didn't with Mat.  Instead, he has the character give another explanation, and then presents no alternatives, either in the text, or in any and all comments he's made in interviews and the like.

 

I do have some problems with the surgical metaphor for Healing ... but nothing would really be served by going into them.  Suffice to say, I disagree.

[DuDZiK]

I'm sorry to the people here who think it's the dagger, but I just can't see it. There is no direct evidence to suggest such a thing. No one in the series says: "Mats luck comes from the dagger" or "things taken from Shadar Logoth (sp?) makes people lucky, but kills them".

 

On the other hand, does anyone else remember that when describing what Artur Hawkwing was like as a ta'varen they just happened to mention that anyone dicing around him would throw nothing but sixes or pips? In fact haven't people said the same about Rand? The definition of ta'varen is that they alter chance in some way, is it not? People fall without being bruised; people trip harmlessly but somehow wind up dead; people do things that they would rarely do like get married or say things that they might say, but only very rarely... these things are complete chance, but being ta'varen alters that chance to make rare things happen with greater frequency.

 

Mat seems to alter his own chance in specific ways, but it still sounds like ta'varen at work rather than some special force a tainted dagger imbued him with. I mean look at how else Mat's luck seems to work; he's lucky in battle, he's lucky in finding things or people, he's lucky in avoiding danger - like when he slipped in the mud so the gholam missed killing him... all these things work for Rand and Perrin as well, and we know that no tainted dagger has anything to do with them.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The difference is that ta'veren works both ways (good and bad, Rand's journey to Tear provides plenty of examples) ... Mat's luck always works to his benefit.

 

The ta'veren effect also ebbs and flows (per RJ in the Glimmers interview cited by Maj in another thread) ... sometimes the effect is much greater, others, not so much.  Mat seems to have a baseline of luck that is always active.

 

I think there might be times when Mat's special luck (whatever its source may be) and his ta'veren-ness combine to produce totally whacked out experiences (like the night in Tar Valon).  But clearly there is something else at work in Mat, other than just being ta'veren.

[BrainFireBob]

DudZik- The quote is that *sometimes* Hawkwing would be extraordinarily lucky at gambling- much like Rand affecting the Maiden's gaming.

 

Mat doesn't affect the luck of games around him, he affects his own, and does so consistently- and ta'veren luck is *neutral*, with equal good and bad, not *good.* Moreover, Mat's luck "informs him" of crossroads of destiny and impending danger. ta'veren.

 

I agree with RaW, and have had this argument many times before- Mat's superluck is when both things are working in his favor- and I imagine his periods of "normalcy" might be when they work against each other, come to think of it . . .

[DuDZiK]

The difference is that ta'veren works both ways (good and bad, Rand's journey to Tear provides plenty of examples) ... Mat's luck always works to his benefit.

 

The ta'veren effect also ebbs and flows (per RJ in the Glimmers interview cited by Maj in another thread) ... sometimes the effect is much greater, others, not so much.  Mat seems to have a baseline of luck that is always active.

 

I think there might be times when Mat's special luck (whatever its source may be) and his ta'veren-ness combine to produce totally whacked out experiences (like the night in Tar Valon).  But clearly there is something else at work in Mat, other than just being ta'veren.

 

But it doesn't always work in his favour. He finds battles when he tries to avoid it, he finds himself in events and situations he wouldn't want to be in, and there have been times that he's thrown nothing but pips which could be bad depending on the game he's played, and with his baseline luck he doesn't always win, just like ta'varen ebbs and flows.

 

DudZik- The quote is that *sometimes* Hawkwing would be extraordinarily lucky at gambling- much like Rand affecting the Maiden's gaming.

 

Mat is also 1) not nearly as strong a ta'varen as Artur Hawkwing, and 2) this seems to be the special qualities of his being ta'varen.

 

Mat doesn't affect the luck of games around him, he affects his own, and does so consistently- and ta'veren luck is *neutral*, with equal good and bad, not *good.* Moreover, Mat's luck "informs him" of crossroads of destiny and impending danger. ta'veren.

 

I agree with RaW, and have had this argument many times before- Mat's superluck is when both things are working in his favor- and I imagine his periods of "normalcy" might be when they work against each other, come to think of it . . .

 

I don't know. Without any real evidence I'm inclined to just go with the explanation that he's simply ta'varen, and his luck working well for him is just his uniqueness; his character affecting his being ta'varen.

[Tyrell]

As far as the issue of "the Dark One's luck" if I were the Dark One, I wouldn't give the power of extraordinary luck to one of the greatest threats to me. I'd give it to my Chosen, or my Nae'blis, not a Ta'veren friend of the Dragon.

[RobertAlexWillis]

But it doesn't always work in his favour. He finds battles when he tries to avoid it, he finds himself in events and situations he wouldn't want to be in, and there have been times that he's thrown nothing but pips which could be bad depending on the game he's played, and with his baseline luck he doesn't always win, just like ta'varen ebbs and flows.

 

Well ... I guess we'll just have to disagree ... the pattern is pretty clear in the books ... Mat's experience is VERY different than Rand's and Perrin's ... and clearly doesn't work the way that ta'veren is described as working ... but if you don't buy it, then you don't buy it.

 

He finds battles that he doesn't want to find ... but always wins them ... so it might not be giving him what he thinks he wants, but its always working in his favor.  When he throws the Dark One's eyes, its never actually in a game when that would be bad ... and with his baseline luck, he always wins a lot more than he loses.  A lot more than he loses.  Enough to literally feed an army more than he loses.  Thats truly insane, if you think about it.

[BrainFireBob]

Except Rand, a stronger ta'veren, has less effect. That's the issue there.

 

Also what Mat wants to find does not equal luck working in his favor. He found battles necessary for his long-term protection (cementing the loyalty of the Band)- it also handed him battles he could *win*- I'd call that in his favor.

[cloglord]

As far as the issue of "the Dark One's luck" if I were the Dark One, I wouldn't give the power of extraordinary luck to one of the greatest threats to me. I'd give it to my Chosen, or my Nae'blis, not a Ta'veren friend of the Dragon.

 

from a dragoncon Q&A in 2005

 

Question: In the Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat

as he is recuperating from his one power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter’angreal out of the tower cache, one of which was a ter’angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat’s really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began, is this a connection or coincidence.

 

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One’s own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn’t a gift from Lanfear, though.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well now.

 

Thats food for thought.  I may owe BFB an apology ... its certainly not proof, but its an indication of a possibility, and the only RJ quote I've seen that discusses, even by implication, the source of Mat's luck.

 

If it is somehow from the Dark One (and Ba'alzamon/Ishy would be the only conduit I can think of) it is truly puzzling though.  The questions about what Ishy or Shai'tan hope to gain remain unanswered.

[DuDZiK]

Well now.

 

Thats food for thought.  I may owe BFB an apology ... its certainly not proof, but its an indication of a possibility, and the only RJ quote I've seen that discusses, even by implication, the source of Mat's luck.

 

If it is somehow from the Dark One (and Ba'alzamon/Ishy would be the only conduit I can think of) it is truly puzzling though.  The questions about what Ishy or Shai'tan hope to gain remain unanswered.

 

Actually it may have swung me towards your previous stance, Robert, as odd as that sounds now that you have shifted from it... ::)

 

He said that the 'Dark One's own luck' is close to the truth, but not quite. Shadar Logoth sure is 'Dark', and since I find there to be more evidence and reason to assume that the dagger did something to Mat than the Dark One somehow... I find it an increasingly higher possibility that the dagger is the source of his luck.

 

I can't recall the earlier books too well, but what could Ishamael have done to Mat to affect his luck, especially when considering the timeline of when Mat's luck really manifested? I mean other than Lanfear, which Mr Jordan had said in that Q&A section did not do anything to Mat in this regard, what other Forsaken or agent of the Dark One's was in contact with Mat before The Dragon Reborn?

[cloglord]

I can't recall the earlier books too well, but what could Ishamael have done to Mat to affect his luck, especially when considering the timeline of when Mat's luck really manifested?

 

That gets back to the whole balalzamon/Ishy tempting the taveren in their dreams.  The Idea was that this was a potential oppurtunity for balazamon AKA Ishmael to have granted Mat, "The Dark One's Luck."

[DuDZiK]

I can't recall the earlier books too well, but what could Ishamael have done to Mat to affect his luck, especially when considering the timeline of when Mat's luck really manifested?

 

That gets back to the whole balalzamon/Ishy tempting the taveren in their dreams.  The Idea was that this was a potential oppurtunity for balazamon AKA Ishmael to have granted Mat, "The Dark One's Luck."

 

Does that work within the given timeline though? I mean when was the last time Ishamael visited Mat within his dreams in relation to when Mat's luck became so significant?

[BrainFireBob]

Well now.

 

Thats food for thought.  I may owe BFB an apology ... its certainly not proof, but its an indication of a possibility, and the only RJ quote I've seen that discusses, even by implication, the source of Mat's luck.

 

If it is somehow from the Dark One (and Ba'alzamon/Ishy would be the only conduit I can think of) it is truly puzzling though.  The questions about what Ishy or Shai'tan hope to gain remain unanswered.

 

And I owe you an apology- I had assumed you had that quote. I would've scrounged it up if I'd thought.

 

That's what made me seriously consider the dreams, yes.

 

EDIT: Dudzik- it was *right before* Mat received the dagger, as I recall. Maybe just after- but Mat was "characterized" by the dagger in one of the dreams.

 

It makes sense sideways- or weakly- if it was a way to make Mat "stand out" for the hounds to track.

[Tyrell]

Now that is interesting.

[DuDZiK]

EDIT: Dudzik- it was *right before* Mat received the dagger, as I recall. Maybe just after- but Mat was "characterized" by the dagger in one of the dreams.

 

It makes sense sideways- or weakly- if it was a way to make Mat "stand out" for the hounds to track.

 

Do you mean to say that Mat was meant to have the dagger by Ba'alzamon? Or that he simply knew that one of the three ta'varen he was after would be characterized by a dagger?

 

And to get my timeline down, you mean that the last time that Mat was visited in his dreams by Ishamael was just before he got the dagger?

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Do you mean to say that Mat was meant to have the dagger by Ba'alzamon? Or that he simply knew that one of the three ta'varen he was after would be characterized by a dagger?

 

I would think the latter, remember when Rand first sees Ishy in a Dream, he sees three small statutes, a young man with a sword, a young man with a dagger, etc.