Cyndane/Lanfear

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let's do a comparison to Aginor to see how likely that seems.

 

The prevailing idea is that Aginor died through drawing so deeply on the pure saidin from the Eye that he burned himself not just out, but completely to ash. Something that was both incredibly foolish and highly disloyal to the DO. Yet, Osan'gar had all of Aginor's strength in the Power. If he did indeed die by burning himself out, that demonstrates that the DO is not inclined to transmigrate his minions at lower strength simply to teach them a lesson.

 

Cyndane's lowered strength would seem to require a different explanation.

 

We know that the Forsaken, at least, know how to mask their true strength, so that's one possible explanation. It also wouldn't surprise me in the least if Moridin had put a shield on her much like the one she put on Asmo. Both to teach her a lesson and and also to gratify his own sense of humor.

[Jedimuppet]

Let's do a comparison to Aginor to see how likely that seems.

 

The prevailing idea is that Aginor died through drawing so deeply on the pure saidin from the Eye that he burned himself not just out' date=' but completely to ash. Something that was both incredibly foolish and highly disloyal to the DO. Yet, Osan'gar had all of Aginor's strength in the Power. If he did indeed die by burning himself out, that demonstrates that the DO is not inclined to transmigrate his minions at lower strength simply to teach them a lesson.

 

Cyndane's lowered strength would seem to require a different explanation.

 

We know that the Forsaken, at least, know how to mask their true strength, so that's one possible explanation. It also wouldn't surprise me in the least if Moridin had put a shield on her much like the one she put on Asmo. Both to teach her a lesson and and also to gratify his own sense of humor.[/quote']

 

That's not a valid comparison. Lanfear plotted directly against the dark one with his most powerful mortal enemy. That might put her in a different category; I'm not prepared to embrace an argument that doesn't take that into account.

 

Also, we have from Cyndane's pov beign surprised at Alanna's strength. She compares it to her own before she was held by the Finns. Why would she make a note of the difference in relative strength in her own POV unless there really was a difference?

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think you mean Alivia rather than Alanna.

 

She also thinks that it is impossible for any woman to be stronger than she is.

 

There's also the fact that Alivia is wearing Nynaeve's finger and bracelet angreal at the time which greatly increases her apparent strength.

 

Not being the DO ( alright, I admit that I lied when I said I was ) I'm not sure how the DO thinks, but Aginor went completely behind the DO's back to try to corner the market on pure saidin. He wanted to do things without the DO looking over his shoulder like he can when he had to use the DO as his filter. The DO has a history of killing those he even suspects are being a tiny bit disloyal. Trying to give oneself an unmonitored source of Power would certainly be as disloyal as treating with the enemy.

 

The fact that the DO is transmigrating the souls of the Forsaken tells us how desperate he is for lieutenants. I doubt he'd go to the bother of transmigrating Lanfear only to hamstring her and lessen her effectiveness in such a situation.

[Jedimuppet]

I think you mean Alivia rather than Alanna.

 

She also thinks that it is impossible for any woman to be stronger than she is.

 

There's also the fact that Alivia is wearing Nynaeve's finger and bracelet angreal at the time which greatly increases her apparent strength.

 

Not being the DO ( alright' date=' I admit that I lied when I said I was ) I'm not sure how the DO thinks, but Aginor went completely behind the DO's back to try to corner the market on pure saidin. He wanted to do things without the DO looking over his shoulder like he can when he had to use the DO as his filter. The DO has a history of killing those he even suspects are being a tiny bit disloyal. Trying to give oneself an unmonitored source of Power would certainly be as disloyal as treating with the enemy.

 

The fact that the DO is transmigrating the souls of the Forsaken tells us how desperate he is for lieutenants. I doubt he'd go to the bother of transmigrating Lanfear only to hamstring her and lessen her effectiveness in such a situation.[/quote']

 

You're right about my mixup with Alivia.

 

I don't know to whom you're referring when you say she thinks it's impossible for anyone to be stronger than she is. Cyndane obviously thinks she's very strong, and Alivia's thoughts don't matter in this scenario.

 

Her apparent strength is increased, but that's inmaterial to Cyndane's reaction.

 

He hasn't hamstrung Lanfear. I think it's more cosmetic. She's not as strong, but she's still at the top of the heap. He didn't really hamstring himself at all, but he did destroy her ego.

 

Also, he did give Aginor a horrible pathetic body. That might have been his punishment, as the DO seems to be almost poetic in attacking what you're proud of.

 

*shrug* it makes perfect sense to me

J

[rd2000]

Actually, it's Elza

[Jedimuppet]

Actually' date=' it's Elza[/quote']

 

It's not elza; I'm talking about the extraordinarily powerful Seanchan Damane who is supposed to help Rand die. She's stronger even than Nynaeve.

J

[rd2000]

"Also, we have from Cyndane's pov beign surprised at Alanna's strength."--------This is the quote you corrected as being Alivia. That scene involved Elza, not Alanna, not Alivia. Unless we have different parts of the books we are referring to. I assumed he meant the part where Rand is removing the taint and the Forsaken come gunning for him.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry. The "She" meant Cyndane.

 

There's certainly no requirement for the DO to be consistent in anything, but if humiliation was his aim then he could as easily have found an old ugly body to put Lanfear into. He didn't. Cyndane is apparently quite attractive.

 

None of which means that the DO did not reduce her strength in some way, but doesn't mean he did, either. A partial shield like Asmo had explains things just as well, and doesn't require the supernatural, so I'm going with that for now.

[Jedimuppet]

"Also' date=' we have from Cyndane's pov beign surprised at Alanna's strength."--------This is the quote you corrected as being Alivia. That scene involved Elza, not Alanna, not Alivia. Unless we have different parts of the books we are referring to. I assumed he meant the part where Rand is removing the taint and the Forsaken come gunning for him.[/quote']

 

That's it, but it's the seanchan girl who amazes Cyndane. Think about it; Elza's an AS, and the forsaken aren't particularly impressed with them. It's the rescued damane with the incredible strength.

J

[Jedimuppet]

Sorry. The "She" meant Cyndane.

 

There's certainly no requirement for the DO to be consistent in anything' date=' but if humiliation was his aim then he could as easily have found an old ugly body to put Lanfear into. He didn't. Cyndane is apparently quite attractive.

 

None of which means that the DO did not reduce her strength in some way, but doesn't mean he did, either. A partial shield like Asmo had explains things just as well, and doesn't require the supernatural, so I'm going with that for now.[/quote']

 

A shield could explain it, true. But what's it matter? I mean at that point we're quibbling about methodology.

 

He's still punishing her, and he's still responsible. He's not also any less hamstrung if she needs that power. I mean if he was going to loose her shield when he needed her to be more powerful, he'd have done it at the cleansing.

J

[Bob T Dwarf]

"Also' date=' we have from Cyndane's pov beign surprised at Alanna's strength."--------This is the quote you corrected as being Alivia. That scene involved Elza, not Alanna, not Alivia. Unless we have different parts of the books we are referring to. I assumed he meant the part where Rand is removing the taint and the Forsaken come gunning for him.[/quote']

 

No. Elza was in a circle with Jahar using Callandor. She's the one who vaporized Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva.

 

Alivia, with the help of Nynaeve's angreal is the one who fought Cyndane.

[HighLordXanthus]

I think it is the lesser ability that keeps me questioning the whole rebirth thing. We have only one other instance of a channeler recieving a cut in power, and that was suion and leana. But then why the new body?

 

I am definitely of the opinion that transmigration would not have accounted for that if lanfear/cyndane had been stilled then killed, and there is no reason for the DO to do it. The mindtrap is all the punishment that was needed. We can say that the simlest answer is that she died after the finns held her and the DO gave her a new body with lesser ability, but I don't trust this.

 

I will hold my ground on this and say that I still feel that sometime within the finns, for what ever reasons, Lanfear's form and ability were modified. I think this would be totally within their power, and motive.

 

Another lesser theory of mine was that when moiraine and lanfear fell through the twisted door, they some how melded similarly to Luc/Isam aka Slayer. I know some disagree, but I have long felt that slayer had ties to the finns and the tower of ghengi. The new uber MoirFear melding could have asked to be separated, thus Cyndane's resembelance to a Cairhien and thus moiraine in shape and size. And you know how trixie the finns can be, that could answer why Cyndane has less ability, where potentially moiraine could come out with greater.

 

Anyway that theory is a bit far fetched, but this does give answer to all holes in other theories

[rd2000]

"Also' date=' we have from Cyndane's pov beign surprised at Alanna's strength."--------This is the quote you corrected as being Alivia. That scene involved Elza, not Alanna, not Alivia. Unless we have different parts of the books we are referring to. I assumed he meant the part where Rand is removing the taint and the Forsaken come gunning for him.[/quote']

 

No. Elza was in a circle with Jahar using Callandor. She's the one who vaporized Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva.

 

Alivia, with the help of Nynaeve's angreal is the one who fought Cyndane.

 

Right you are, my mistake :oops:

[Inara]

do you think with the mind trap control moridin could have forced cyndane to believe that she is weaker than she was, thus curtaling her actual strength (or it could have been hidden by him).

the do could have just given her a new body, thn given her to moridin; who imposed his own little punishment and commanded her to forget all about it.

 

a theory that has been creeping up on me..but i might explain a few things..

[Jedimuppet]

do you think with the mind trap control moridin could have forced cyndane to believe that she is weaker than she was' date=' thus curtaling her actual strength (or it could have been hidden by him).

the do could have just given her a new body, thn given her to moridin; who imposed his own little punishment and commanded her to forget all about it.

 

a theory that has been creeping up on me..but i might explain a few things..[/quote']

 

She's shown that she's quite in control of her mind. She can't disobey, but she can think independently.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

To play the Dark One's advocate, technically there could be a partial shield of the TP on cyndane that she would be unable to feel. Only the wielder of the TP can feel/sense those weaves.

 

On the other hand, the quote from winters heart at the cleansing of saidin, cyndane does think that her new power ability happening while in the finns, or atleast mentions that she was stronger before being held

[Jedimuppet]

To play the Dark One's advocate' date=' technically there could be a partial shield of the TP on cyndane that she would be unable to feel. Only the wielder of the TP can feel/sense those weaves.

 

On the other hand, the quote from winters heart at the cleansing of saidin, cyndane does think that her new power ability happening while in the finns, or atleast mentions that she was stronger before being held[/quote']

 

We've already spoken about this, though. Some people are saying that he would not weaken himself by bringing back a weaker Forsaken. They say maybe he put a shield on her to prevent her from being stronger without making it permanent.

 

If that's the case, what good is it, when he obviously doesn't release her when she needs to use it, as in the cleansing?

 

Why go the shield route at all, since he obviously never lets her channel at full power, anyway. In effect, he's no less hamstrung, and this idea doesnt' make any sense to me.

 

My argument is her power was reduced enough to gall her, but not to make an effective strategic difference.

J

[Inara]

could be a punishment with a time frame on it, like being grounded.

though, i dont know why he would do that and not let her know, seems to defeat the purpose of punishment, unless she is supposed to think it was permanent and that is the punishment...

[HighLordXanthus]

jedi, you know that i don't actually think there was a block, i was just throwing it out there while you all were discussing it. Possible, but unlikely.

 

Under the same token and reasoning, i find it unlikely that the DO would have weakened her, however slightly, on purpose.

 

I am also surprised that no one commented on the MoirFear theory I just posed

[Jedimuppet]

To play the Dark One's advocate' date=' technically there could be a partial shield of the TP on cyndane that she would be unable to feel. Only the wielder of the TP can feel/sense those weaves.

 

On the other hand, the quote from winters heart at the cleansing of saidin, cyndane does think that her new power ability happening while in the finns, or atleast mentions that she was stronger before being held[/quote']

 

OF course, what you're not looking at is that if she had died there, then that would be the last time she had that power level. Then it's basically the same as saying "back before I died". The only indication here is the last time she had that power level, not who did it to her.

 

You have to be very careful when you make assumptions.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

But there is no animosity against the finns if they did kill her. We know she did not die out right by falling through the door way, that she was held atleast for a time. If she was later killed, you would think she would rant and rave like mat did when he felt he had been betrayed by them.

 

I still say that some kind of melding/swapping between Moiraine and Lanfear could account for cyndane's new caihrein appearance and lower ability level

[Jedimuppet]

But there is no animosity against the finns if they did kill her. We know she did not die out right by falling through the door way' date=' that she was held atleast for a time. If she was later killed, you would think she would rant and rave like mat did when he felt he had been betrayed by them.

 

I still say that some kind of melding/swapping between Moiraine and Lanfear [b']could[/b] account for cyndane's new caihrein appearance and lower ability level

 

She's come back from the dead; maybe she's over it.

 

Anyway, I'm just saying to use that quote to indicate the Finn's did something to her is not logically valid. It doesn't exclude the possibility, granted, but it certainly doesn't confirm or even help the notion.

J

[Jedimuppet]

 

I still say that some kind of melding/swapping between Moiraine and Lanfear could account for cyndane's new caihrein appearance and lower ability level

 

Except the DO renamed her Last Chance, and she magically has a new form? It stretches credibility for me to believe she wasn't brought back from the dead like all the other different looking renamed forsaken out there.

 

And if she did die, it's very unlikely that anything the Finns did to her would still be affecting her.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

I answered the new appearance in a previous post

Another lesser theory of mine was that when moiraine and lanfear fell through the twisted door, they some how melded similarly to Luc/Isam aka Slayer. I know some disagree, but I have long felt that slayer had ties to the finns and the tower of ghengi. The new uber MoirFear melding could have asked to be separated, thus Cyndane's resembelance to a Cairhien and thus moiraine in shape and size. And you know how trixie the finns can be, that could answer why Cyndane has less ability, where potentially moiraine could come out with greater.

 

If they had been melded some how, then asked to be seperated, it would have been just like the finn's to not make it exact. Lanfear would have gotten some of moiraine, and vice versa. There is precedent, as I think that slayer became joined there some how.

[Jedimuppet]

I answered the new appearance in a previous post

Another lesser theory of mine was that when moiraine and lanfear fell through the twisted door' date=' they some how melded similarly to Luc/Isam aka Slayer. I know some disagree, but I have long felt that slayer had ties to the finns and the tower of ghengi. The new uber MoirFear melding could have asked to be separated, thus Cyndane's resembelance to a Cairhien and thus moiraine in shape and size. And you know how trixie the finns can be, that could answer why Cyndane has less ability, where potentially moiraine could come out with greater. [/quote']

 

If they had been melded some how, then asked to be seperated, it would have been just like the finn's to not make it exact. Lanfear would have gotten some of moiraine, and vice versa. There is precedent, as I think that slayer became joined there some how.

 

I saw this theory, but I don't think it's supported by the books.

J