Cyndane/Lanfear

[Jedimuppet]

your forget Lord Luc/Isam seems to be able to travel some what freely into the tower of ghenji. If we do take it to be true that the finn's just held her' date=' imposed the price of a new body and ability level for her life, then all luc/isam must do is go get her. Not easy, but possible as we know in moiraine's case.

 

Although it is a small connection, if this is so, it does tie in nicely to the mindtrap. Moghedien also had to be rescued, then placed into a mind trap. Note that is the single other forsaken held by one. And she never died. Just betrayed the DO by her capture by Nynaeve and Elayne. Lanfear similarly betrayed the DO, but to a greater degree.

 

Asmodean also betrayed the DO, was killed and never reborn. Why then would he make the effort to resurrect a traiter for lanfear?[/quote']

 

The only reason Asmo didn't come back is because he was killed by balefire.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

where did you get that idea from? in the books asmo has a look of surprise on his face, says "you" as death takes him. there is no proof of balefire short of the fact that he was never reborn

[Guest Majsju]

your forget Lord Luc/Isam seems to be able to travel some what freely into the tower of ghenji. If we do take it to be true that the finn's just held her' date=' imposed the price of a new body and ability level for her life, then all luc/isam must do is go get her. Not easy, but possible as we know in moiraine's case.

 

[/quote']

 

That is pure speculation. We saw him lead Perrin to the Tower, and then disappear. That does not mean he actually entered.

 

We know how to enter the Tower in the real world, and Slayer did not perform those things.

 

That leaves us with two possibilities, either there's another way to enter the Tower in T'A'R. In that case, it might just have been a trick by Slayer to make Perrin enter, and not being able to get out again. Why else did Slayer allow him to see the traces? It's T'A'R, where you can be on the other side of the world just by thinking about being there. But yet, Slayer who's supposed to be an expert of T'A'R allows perrin to see him. Why?

 

The other possibility is that there is no other way to enter the Tower. Slayer just tricked Perrin there for some other reason. Maybe to have Perrin standing there scratching his head while Slayer moved in position to put an arrow in his back. Only, Birgitte showed up and interrupted.

 

Of course, Slayer Might have actually entered. But we don't know, we can only speculate.

[HighLordXanthus]

Majsju-

 

I may be recalling incorrectly, but didn't birgitte tell him not to follow slayer into to tower? suggesting atleast the she thought he entered it?

[Jedimuppet]

where did you get that idea from? in the books asmo has a look of surprise on his face' date=' says "you" as death takes him. there is no proof of balefire short of the fact that he was never reborn[/quote']

 

The DO brings everybody back because he has a shortage of servants. The only time he hasn't brought anyone back is when they're BF'd. *shrug* pretty simple.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

Then something glittered ahead, sparkling in the sun, a tower of metal. Hisquarry sped straight for it, and vanished. Two leaps brought Perrin there as well.

 

Two hundred feet the tower rose, and forty thick, gleaming like burnished steel. It might as well have been a solid column of metal. Perrin walked around it twice without seeing any opening, not so much as a crack, not even a mark on that smoth, sheer wall. The smell hung here, though, that cold, inhuman stink. The trail ended here. The man - if man he was - had gone inside somehow. He only had to find the way to follow. (The Shadow Rising, ch 28, page 322, hb)

 

Slayer may not have actually gone within the tower, but both Hopper and Birgitte continue from there warning him not to enter it, not saying that the man in fact had not ented at all.

[Guest Majsju]

Then something glittered ahead' date=' sparkling in the sun, a tower of metal. Hisquarry sped straight for it, and vanished. Two leaps brought Perrin there as well.

 

Two hundred feet the tower rose, and forty thick, gleaming like burnished steel. It might as well have been a solid column of metal. Perrin walked around it twice without seeing any opening, not so much as a crack, not even a mark on that smoth, sheer wall. The smell hung here, though, that cold, inhuman stink. The trail ended here. The man - if man he was - had gone inside somehow. He only had to find the way to follow. (The Shadow Rising, ch 28, page 322, hb)[/quote']

 

Slayer may not have actually gone within the tower, but both Hopper and Birgitte continue from there warning him not to enter it, not saying that the man in fact had not ented at all.

 

Birgitte doesn't even mention Slayer until Perrin brings up that he had been chasing him. And immidiatlyy after Birgitte starts talking about how she shouldn't tell Perrin these things, or talk to him at all.

 

Perrin thinks that Slayer must have entered, because the smell ends at the Tower. We know that doesn't mean anything in T'A'R. We also know that most characters have a habit of believing they know more than they actually do.

[HighLordXanthus]

that is true. it may be that slayer in fact did not enter the tower. atleast perrin did believe it so, and that was never recounted or opposed in the books later. but it could be as you say.

 

Edit: Jedi -

WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN, DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME" (LoC, prologue)

 

I think that would prove that the DO would NOT have transmigrated Lanfear even if not balefired if he did in fact know of the offer she made to Rand about using the Choedan Kal to challenge the DO and the creater, helping rand, forcing asmodoen to teach rand, and any other smaller betrayals.

 

As well, if asmodean was killed by balefire, wouldnt the Do have included him when speaking of Rahvin?

[Talya]

Just to go back to the Lanfear/Cyndane thing.

 

I believe the reason Lanfear doesn't have her own body and name is becuase she did die. All the other Forsaken who have been given new bodies and names have died. This has not happened to anyone that was still alive.

 

Is has been suggested this happened because of her betryal to the DO. Moghedien also betrayed him and she only got mindtrapped. No new body and name for her. I'm sure I read that Moghedien had done something to help redeem her slightly hence not having the final death (as said in LOC in the beginning).

 

Lanfear betrayed the DO big time. She died (reason as above) and was brought back in a new body, but I believe she must have done something to redeem herself in the DO's eyes for her not to have the final death. (Kill Asmodean??!! ....For example).

 

To lose her strength and beauty could have come from either the DO or the Finns as punishment. The DO becuase she had betrayed him (though having your strongest female channeler reduced in strength is not a good tactic) or as Payment for whatever from the Finns.

[rd2000]

Moggy said she taught Egwene a few weaves that did nothing but give her a bad headache.

[Jedimuppet]

Moggy said she taught Egwene a few weaves that did nothing but give her a bad headache.

 

That was Nynaeve and Elayne. Egwene's headaches are a gift of Halima. Moggy also taught all sorts of neat things to the girls. NOt that she's not evil, or anything; they *did* learn useful things, though.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

I can't believe that i havent given enough info to atleast convince you all, at the bare minimum, of the possiblity. it seems that most won't even try to see it as an option.

[Jedimuppet]

I can't believe that i havent given enough info to atleast convince you all' date=' at the bare minimum, of the possiblity. it seems that most won't even try to see it as an option.[/quote']

 

Well, I just can't believe you are explaining away lanfear's reincarnation as Finn induced body swapping.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

all i am saying is that i did not think she was killed and then reborn when i first read through, so it is hard to get my mind around it now. i do know it may have been so, but i still see what i first saw.

[Trib4l]

It's not a matter of being 'reborn' - it's a matter of the DO snatching up her soul and placing it in an available body once she died, most likely in Finnland.

[Jedimuppet]

all i am saying is that i did not think she was killed and then reborn when i first read through' date=' so it is hard to get my mind around it now. i do know it may have been so, but i still see what i first saw.[/quote']

 

I've thought she's been dead and reborn for years now...and further readings have done nothing to change that. Majsu brings up a great point about her name meaning Last chance, and the dialogue supports it.

 

There's no reason to go inventing an elaborate Finn swap event to explain what was already pretty explicitly stated in the book.

J

[Jedimuppet]

all i am saying is that i did not think she was killed and then reborn when i first read through' date=' so it is hard to get my mind around it now. i do know it may have been so, but i still see what i first saw.[/quote']

 

Well I can't change my mind just because you seem to believe it, or continue to because of inertia, especially when you provide no evidene but your initial hunch.

J

[Ashandarei]

My theory is that yes, the finns held her, but as she was fighting Moiraine and fell into the ter'angreal, she was stilled during/after the fight and held by the finns(price to leave was death) or Moiraine killed her. This would explain why she is weaker in her new body, because as we saw, when Nynaeve healed stilling, Leane and Siuan dropped significantly in strength in the one power.

The stilling was probably caused by the large amounts of power being channeled in proximity of and then inside a ter'angreal by Moiraine and Lanfear. Which, in turn, implies that Moiraine also might have been stilled...

[Kaznen]

I think what happened to her strength was Moiraine wished to be as strong as Lanfear in the OP. So instead of making Mo stronger they made Lanfear weaker, then Mo wanted Lanfear's knowledge in the OP, so they copy pasted Lanfear's memory into Mo's. Then they killed Lanfear because she is evil.

[Trib4l]

My theory is that yes' date=' the finns held her, but as she was fighting Moiraine and fell into the ter'angreal, she was stilled during/after the fight and held by the finns(price to leave was death) or Moiraine killed her. This would explain why she is weaker in her new body, because as we saw, when Nynaeve healed stilling, Leane and Siuan dropped significantly in strength in the one power.

The stilling was probably caused by the large amounts of power being channeled in proximity of and then inside a ter'angreal by Moiraine and Lanfear. Which, in turn, implies that Moiraine also might have been stilled...[/quote']

 

As RJ has pointed out - the lesser amounts of power after being healed of stilling is caused by being healed by someone of the same sex. I.E. women should not heal women, etc...

[Jedimuppet]

My theory is that yes' date=' the finns held her, but as she was fighting Moiraine and fell into the ter'angreal, she was stilled during/after the fight and held by the finns(price to leave was death) or Moiraine killed her. This would explain why she is weaker in her new body, because as we saw, when Nynaeve healed stilling, Leane and Siuan dropped significantly in strength in the one power.

The stilling was probably caused by the large amounts of power being channeled in proximity of and then inside a ter'angreal by Moiraine and Lanfear. Which, in turn, implies that Moiraine also might have been stilled...[/quote']

 

As RJ has pointed out - the lesser amounts of power after being healed of stilling is caused by being healed by someone of the same sex. I.E. women should not heal women, etc...

 

Exactly, and it would be most improbable that the DO, who has no sex, somehow suffers from this limitation when bringing people back from the dead, stilled or otherwise.

J

[rd2000]

Also, when Cyndane and Moggy came to one of the forsaken(can't remember if it was Semmi or Graendal)

Cyndane told her that she led between the two. That implies that Cyndane was still more powerful than Moggy. If stilled, then healed by a female, I think she would have been much less powerful than Moggy if you consider the scale of power loss that Siuan encountered in her stilling/healing.

[Ashandarei]

oh ok, i see. it was a theory, but i suppose that's improbable in this case. In reference to the healing by the other gender, I hadn't heard that RJ said that. Out of curiosity, did he explain why that is so? it seems rather interesting that only the opp. sex can heal one properly.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Also' date=' when Cyndane and Moggy came to one of the forsaken(can't remember if it was Semmi or Graendal)

Cyndane told her that she led between the two. That implies that Cyndane was still more powerful than Moggy. If stilled, then healed by a female, I think she would have been much less powerful than Moggy if you consider the scale of power loss that Siuan encountered in her stilling/healing.[/quote']

 

Don't confuse the Foresaken with the Tower Aes Sedai. Graendal's initial reaction was that Moghedien led simply because Cyndane was the new kid on the block. She put age/experience before power. Moridin controls both Cyndane and Moghedien via mindtrap and he decides which one gets to play leader. That decisision doesn't necessarily have anything to do with which one is stronger. If Moridin decides that Moghedien is going to take the lead between her and Cyndane for a while, Moghedien will be the leader of the two.

[Guest Majsju]

But we have a POV where Graendal thinks Cyndane is stronger than herself, and Graendal is most likely more powerful than Moghedien.