Black Oaths

[trakand_01]

So at the end of CoS, Galina's  POV mentions the 3 new oaths which replace the 3 original oaths, when you become a sister of the Black Ajah.

 

Do we have any idea what these oaths are?

 

Also the rod which Sammael gives to Sevannah - is this THE oath rod, or just something very similar?

[Vaped]

The Black Oaths are never spelled out, although we can extrapolate a few:

 

1.  Don't talk about fight cl...er...the black ajah.

2.  Don't give away our current plans.

3.  Don't give out names.

 

Some combination of those, along with others that are undoubtedly to prevent the destruction of the ajah.

 

And Sevanna has an Oath Rod.  There are multiple Oath Rods out there, it just appears that the Aes Sedai aren't aware of this fact.

 

[trakand_01]

I see, interesting. Galina also says in her POV that she is one of only 3 in the Tower who know who (Alviarin) leads their hooded meetings - who are the other 2?

[Wayhey]

I see, interesting. Galina also says in her POV that she is one of only 3 in the Tower who know who (Alviarin) leads their hooded meetings - who are the other 2?

 

Sheriam, maybe?  (Although she's not literally in the Tower at that point...)

[Wayhey]

 

1.  Don't talk about fight cl...er...the black ajah.

2.  Don't give away our current plans.

3.  Don't give out names.

 

 

Those 3 collapse into:

 

2.  Don't betray the Black Ajah.

 

I'm willing to guess that the 1st Oath has somkething to do with serving the Great Lord.

 

And Sevanna has an Oath Rod.  There are multiple Oath Rods out there, it just appears that the Aes Sedai aren't aware of this fact.

 

I'm guessing that the BA just use the Tower Rod to make their Oaths, since they do have access to it and only need it periodically.

[DemandredFO]

All the Oath Rods are binders, ter'angreal used to bind channeling criminals in the Age of Legends.  It also halves channelers lives, no channeler has lived beyond 300 since they found the binder, the trolloc wars, I think.  That's why the Kin live so long, they never swore.  I think Sammael or Demandred even says something to the effect of, "what, that they bind themselves like criminals" referring to so-called Aes Sedai, I think it was one of them.

Regarding the new oaths, I think some character says there are three.  I too believe number one has to be about serving the Great Lord, as for two and three, one probably, as said, deals with not betraying the Black.  The third, no clue.

As to the other two that know alviarin, my guess is one is Lelaine and the other is probably Beonin.  I have no proof for Beonin and it is purely speculation but the comment Elida made struck me, I think it was Elida.  Anyway, someone said Beonin is very ambitious.  Ambition I believe is what ensnared Beonin, as it ensnared Mieren, and I believe this ambition let her rise near the top.  Like I said though Beonin is my personal opinion

[dyring]

I don´t think Beonin, Cause she either had the oath against lying, or is a (to)damn good actor from her talk with Egwene in the tower.

 

Anyway, thin is, being bound does not half your life, One oath prolly does not cause a very big change. One oath would not cause a loss in longeviety, and some change in appearance. Two some more, and 3 to achieve the curent AS look (the agelessness look)

 

This is propably why the BA must have 3 oaths. They could propably have settled for one or two, but they can´t since it would mean that they did not achieve the agelesness fully.

 

//dyring

[Tyrell]

<What Dyring said>

 

Yea it takes the full three oaths to (aproximately)half your life span, although I thought that three took more than half though I don't have any real numbers, it's just an intuitive thought based on nothing in paticular as far as I know. I assume (more of those assumptions) that less oaths = less lifespan loss. And yea it seems that it takes three to make the full ageless look, which I would assume the Black Ajah have three of their own.

 

On a similar, related note, exactly how many oaths have the Black Ajah hunters taken now? The way they all keep swearing and reswearing on the rod I've completely lost count - does swearing the same oath twice count as two or one for lifespan reduce-ed-ness? They may be faced with the ouchyness of forswearing alotta oaths to prevent them from prematurely kicking the bucket, as it were.

[Lacey]

I see, interesting. Galina also says in her POV that she is one of only 3 in the Tower who know who (Alviarin) leads their hooded meetings - who are the other 2?

 

Sheriam, maybe?  (Although she's not literally in the Tower at that point...)

 

Is there any proof that Sheriam is black ajah, or is this just a theory?  I don't remember reading anything definite about this, but I know some suspect she is.

[Wayhey]

 

Is there any proof that Sheriam is black ajah, or is this just a theory?  I don't remember reading anything definite about this, but I know some suspect she is.

 

The Grey Man in her bed was proof enough for me.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Grey Man in her bed was proof enough for me.

 

Why?  What would a Darkfriend gain from reporting the presence of a Gray Man (woman) in her bed?

 

I personally think its evidence that she's under the thumb of someone in the Black Ajah, not that she's Black herself (Lelaine, anyone?)

[Wayhey]

 

I personally think its evidence that she's under the thumb of someone in the Black Ajah, not that she's Black herself (Lelaine, anyone?)

 

How could she possibly be "under the thumb" of someone from the Black Ajah?  If she knows members of the Black Ajah but isn't one, why wouldn't they just turn her or kill her?  She's too much of a risk, otherwise.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If she knows members of the Black Ajah but isn't one, why wouldn't they just turn her or kill her?

 

Yes, what was I thinking ... all those people who have ever used blackmail successfully were idiots!

 

She's clearly under someone's thumb ... she's getting beaten, badly.  Whatever is keeping her quiet about that could well be enough to keep her quiet about anything.

 

As to what they stand to gain by not turning her ... the Black Sister would have an agent who can say, "I'm not Black Ajah" while still under the Oaths ...

 

You still didn't answer my question: What does she gain by reporting a Gray Man dead in her bed, if she's really Black Ajah?

[trakand_01]

You still didn't answer my question: What does she gain by reporting a Gray Man dead in her bed, if she's really Black Ajah?

 

Double bluff? No-one would expect a BA sister to report it.

 

I cant accept Sheriam being BA, I have to say, although only time will tell.

 

I guess there's a question here for me... say she IS 'under the thumb' of someone who is BA, but she isnt BA herself. If she KNOWS the other sister IS and doesnt do anything about them, does that make her just as bad, or does it make her very well manipulated?

 

Another question I've always thought is - the story is all about good v evil, but for some darkfriends, surely they dont consider themselves evil, they just consider themselves on a different side to the 'good' guys. If you look at it from their point of view, the DO offers all sorts of wonderful prizes for doing his bidding (which doesnt always involve killing people) whilst the Light offers... a normal life and a timely death. For some people the greed has to get them, surely? That doesnt necessarily mean they're evil, it just means they were seduced by the fortunes offered by the DO or his henchmen...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Double bluff? No-one would expect a BA sister to report it.

 

That only makes sense if she expected someone else to find it, to catch her disposing of it, or was under suspicion and needed to clear herself.  I don't see any of those applying.

 

If she KNOWS the other sister IS and doesnt do anything about them, does that make her just as bad, or does it make her very well manipulated?

 

Well, obviously I would contend that she is very well manipulated.

[Kura]

Meh, I'll hold my beleif that she is BA, and something about her Oaths prevents her from saying that she is, and getting out of the situation she is in. The whole scene with the Gray Man in the Tower... The scene with her in the Rebel camp, plus I just like the idea of the Keeper being BA.

[trakand_01]

So something like an Oath that says something along the lines of never revealing your true allegiances to any but other Darkfriends?

 

Suppose it could work...

[dyring]

So something like an Oath that says something along the lines of never revealing your true allegiances to any but other Darkfriends?

 

Suppose it could work...

 

That wording would suck thou, thinking as generic AS #236, I would see that as meaning "I´m want to expose BA, therefore my true alligiance are not longer to the DA/black ajah, so now I can say that I was",(but can´t claim to serve the light anymore) ;)

 

Something is odd about Sheriam. Guess it is possible that she is BA, and made enemy with one of the higher placed BA. feels unlikely thou. Think its something else.

 

//dyring

[Wayhey]

As to what they stand to gain by not turning her ... the Black Sister would have an agent who can say, "I'm not Black Ajah" while still under the Oaths ...

 

Clearly she is being ordered around, but still I fail to see how this method is a real advantage over turning her.  Any Black can already stand up and say "I'm not Black Ajah".  In the history of the Tower, how many times have sisters resworn with the Oath Rod?  None that we know aside from the current hounds.  The risk to the Black Ajah is quite high if they employ such proxies.

 

You still didn't answer my question: What does she gain by reporting a Gray Man dead in her bed, if she's really Black Ajah?

Maybe don't have enough info to know what she had to gain.  Maybe she had nothing to gain.  Maybe she was trying to throw off suspicion.  Maybe she didn't think it through.  Maybe she didn't have a choice.

 

Now I had thought briefly that maybe Sheriam was somehow part of Elaida's secret plan, but that still doesn't explain the Shadowspawn Suprise.  Why does a Gray Man end up dead in Sheriam's bed?  If she is Black Ajah, then it can be seen as Lanfear sending the message "don't interfere with my plans, little girl!"  Either that or she did it herself to make it look like she had nothing to do with the 1st one—Sheriam does act oddly about that, remember?  She wasn't very surprised, and never wondered how it ended up dead.  She actually acts very much like someone who's plans went awry and is now trying to cover her ass.  Of course none of this is airtight enough for a trial, but it is definintely consistent with her being a Black.  If she isn't Black Ajah, what is the explanation?  Suicide?

 

 

[Wayhey]

Meh, I'll hold my beleif that she is BA, and something about her Oaths prevents her from saying that she is, and getting out of the situation she is in. The whole scene with the Gray Man in the Tower... The scene with her in the Rebel camp, plus I just like the idea of the Keeper being BA.

 

That would make 2 Keepers, Tower and rebel, from the Black Ajah.  Diabolic!

[RobertAlexWillis]

Any Black can already stand up and say "I'm not Black Ajah".  In the history of the Tower, how many times have sisters resworn with the Oath Rod?  None that we know aside from the current hounds.  The risk to the Black Ajah is quite high if they employ such proxies.

 

The Black Ajah has never been preparing to expose itself for Tarmon Gaidon before, either.  Any Black Sister would know that IF someone started hunting the Black Ajah, they would have to use the Oath Rod.

 

Maybe don't have enough info to know what she had to gain. Maybe she had nothing to gain.

 

I'm not sure what that even means.  If she didn't know what she had to gain (nothing?) then why would she do it?

 

Maybe she was trying to throw off suspicion.

 

LOL ... she wasn't under suspicion.

 

Maybe she didn't think it through.  Maybe she didn't have a choice.

 

Or maybe she isn't Black Ajah.

 

If she is Black Ajah, then it can be seen as Lanfear sending the message "don't interfere with my plans, little girl!"

 

If she is Black Ajah, all Lanfear had to do is say "Don't interfere with my plans, little girl!"

 

Also, why would Sheriam report it, if it was a message from Lanfear?  She wouldn't.  She would have burned the corpse to ash with flows of Fire, and carried it out in a bucket without telling a soul.

 

Either that or she did it herself to make it look like she had nothing to do with the 1st one—Sheriam does act oddly about that, remember?  She wasn't very surprised, and never wondered how it ended up dead

 

She didn't verbally wonder in front of Nynaeve and Egwene.  Some Aes Sedai do know how to hold their tongues, you know.  Especially one who might be under the thumb of a Darkfriend.

 

If she isn't Black Ajah, what is the explanation?

 

If she isn't Black Ajah, the explanation is that it is a message, from someone without the clout of Lanfear, to someone who isn't Black Ajah but who is being threatened.  Its the same message that that Tom Hagen was sending by putting the head of a dead horse into the bed of Jack Woltz.  "I can get to you, any time, anywhere."

 

Sheriam would have to report it, because she wouldn't know who else knew about it being there.  But that wouldn't lessen the impact of the threat.

[Wayhey]

 

The Black Ajah has never been preparing to expose itself for Tarmon Gaidon before, either.  Any Black Sister would know that IF someone started hunting the Black Ajah, they would have to use the Oath Rod.

 

That's fairly weak.  They might guess someone would try and use the Oath Rod to root them out, but that would be quite a stretch.  And it wouldn't save them.  They would also be able to reason that once a concerted effort was begun with the Rod, using Sheriam like that would hardly prevent them from being exposed.

Maybe don't have enough info to know what she had to gain. Maybe she had nothing to gain.

 

I'm not sure what that even means.  If she didn't know what she had to gain (nothing?) then why would she do it?

It means that maybe we don't have enough information to figure out what she has to gain.  In other words, RAFO.  She also might have simply acted without considering the consequences, or decided it was the best of all her availible options.  Again, maybe we just don't know enough to guess at her motivation.

 

Maybe she was trying to throw off suspicion.

LOL ... she wasn't under suspicion.

She was certainly under the wonder girl's suspicions.

Maybe she didn't think it through.  Maybe she didn't have a choice.

 

Or maybe she isn't Black Ajah.

Maybe.  Maybe not.

If she is Black Ajah, all Lanfear had to do is say "Don't interfere with my plans, little girl!"

Lanfear likes to toy with people.

Also, why would Sheriam report it, if it was a message from Lanfear?  She wouldn't.  She would have burned the corpse to ash with flows of Fire, and carried it out in a bucket without telling a soul.

Maybe she didn't know it was a message, or did know who did it.  It certainly wasn't a message to any of the other Aes Sedai, nor would they see it as one.

 

She didn't verbally wonder in front of Nynaeve and Egwene.  Some Aes Sedai do know how to hold their tongues, you know.  Especially one who might be under the thumb of a Darkfriend.

But she didn't even ask the girls obvious questions about their encounter with the 1st Gray Man.  You still haven't come up with a convincing reason why they would have her "under-thumb" but not turned.

 

If she isn't Black Ajah, the explanation is that it is a message, from someone without the clout of Lanfear, to someone who isn't Black Ajah but who is being threatened.  Its the same message that that Tom Hagen was sending by putting the head of a dead horse into the bed of Jack Woltz.  "I can get to you, any time, anywhere."

 

Sheriam would have to report it, because she wouldn't know who else knew about it being there.  But that wouldn't lessen the impact of the threat.

 

It could also throw suspicion away from her if she did it herself.  It worked, I might add.  The wondergirls knew there was a second Gray Man, and were suspicious about Sheriam's behaviour.  Yet when he showed up dead in her bed, suddenly they no longer suspected her of being a Black.  They sympathized with her instead.  Poor Sheriam.

[RobertAlexWillis]

They might guess someone would try and use the Oath Rod to root them out, but that would be quite a stretch.

 

No, they would know that it is the ONLY way to find them out, which is why Seaine's hunter's risked getting in trouble to use it.

 

They would also be able to reason that once a concerted effort was begun with the Rod, using Sheriam like that would hardly prevent them from being exposed.

 

But using Sheriam like that would prevent such an effort from getting anywhere, if it was used on her.

 

It means that maybe we don't have enough information to figure out what she has to gain.  In other words, RAFO.

 

LOL ... we've had eight books since then.  The only evidence that has been added is ... drum roll please ... someone is using her pretty harshly.  Almost like, oh, I don't know, Black Ajah?

 

She also might have simply acted without considering the consequences, or decided it was the best of all her availible options.

 

Then it hardly is evidence that she's Black Ajah, is it?  It could mean anything.

 

She was certainly under the wonder girl's suspicions.

 

Yes, and Aes Sedai worry greatly about the opinions of Accepted.  Also, how does finding another Gray Man alleviate Nynaeve's paranoid suspicions?  Actually reporting the first one to Siuan accomplishes that.  There's no need for a second one.

 

Lanfear likes to toy with people.

 

Not in ways that leave evidence.

 

The wondergirls knew there was a second Gray Man, and were suspicious about Sheriam's behaviour.  Yet when he showed up dead in her bed, suddenly they no longer suspected her of being a Black.  They sympathized with her instead.  Poor Sheriam.

 

Nynaeve found out about the second Gray Man at the same time that she found out, for sure, that Sheriam actually reported the first Gray Man.  That report was enough in itself to throw off suspicion; there was no need to create a situation with another Gray Man.

 

Obviously, we disagree.  Your arguments have shifted from "evidence" to "we don't know for sure".  I agree.  We don't know for sure.  So, we'll just have to wait and see.  It is my opinion that Sheriam is not Black Ajah.

 

[Wayhey]

Sheriam couldn't very well not report the 1st Gray Man.  However, I will agree that there just isn't enough evidence either way, @TM.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sheriam couldn't very well not report the 1st Gray Man.

 

I know.  My point is, once it was verified that she had, she had done enough to move suspicion away from herself.  There would be no need at that point for her to create the situation with the second Gray Man, just to take suspicion off herself.

 

And yes, there is not enough evidence for an ironclad case either way.  I just see alot more indications of her being under someone's thumb than of her being Black Ajah.