Dragon of the Shadow

[dmanmiller34]

Sorry if this has been discussed before But I am currently rereading Lord of Choas (LOC) and in the chapter called threads of Shadow near the begining of the book Grehndal and Sammeul are talking and they are discussing LTT. And they start talking about how Ishamel was the Philophiser and the Theoliean and that Ishy states that the cycle has been going on since the world was created and that at times The Dragon WWAStaken over to the Shadow and became they're champion. If that happened wouldn't the Dark one have won? Wouldn't he be free? Your thoughts in this.

[Andrew the Great]

My thoughts on the matter are that Ishy is insane. If i remember correctly, Ishy tells Rand that he has gone over to the Shadow before while trying to get him to come over to the shadow, so this could easily just be Ishy lying to convince Rand. I also seem to remember Rand being sure he had never gone over before. And I think that if the Dragon went over to the Shadow, then the DO would probably win, yes.

[Arath Faringal]

Interesting side note:  Ishy is the one who came up with the whole 'Wheel of Time' concept in the AoL, yet everyone now believes the ideas of the insane forsaken.  Odd isn't it?

[Davian93]

RJ was asked directly at one point if the Dragon had ever gone over to the Shadow as Ishy had suggested.  You know what his answer was?

 

 

A. And you believe Ishy!?!, I mean C'mon!

[Samuraiflip05]

Well, while I don't think that the Dragon has ever gone to the shadow, it is at least partly feasible.  I mean if the breaking of the world and the taint can be possibly seen as a section (Age) of the WoT that remedies an over-advanced civilization then why couldn't another age be one that reduces the world into chaos and darkness for a time only to have the Shadow forced to "Give birth" to a world of light that progresses through the ages to over-advanced civilization searching where thay shouldn't be looking? 

 

Sorry that is a really long sentence.

 

For comparison (stamping my age) look at the Dark Crystal.  The omnipitent power becomes corrupt and is divided (Good/Evil) for a time until a champion arrives and they are reunited, learning a valuable lesson while nearly decimating a world.

[Davian93]

Well, while I don't think that the Dragon has ever gone to the shadow, it is at least partly feasible.

 

RJ essentially straight out denied that it would even be possible though.

[Samuraiflip05]

Okay so maybe the Dragon never goes to the shadow, but, what if he doesn't always win?  Same scenario different cause.

[Davian93]

Same scenario different cause.

 

For the life of me a cannot find the quote that RJ speaks about because he goes into detail about differing levels of victory and defeat between the dragon and dark one.  Unfortunately, I simply have time to track it down right now.  He mentions IIRC, about different ways that the Shadow can achieve victory by preventing the Dragon from doing certain things that he HAS to do to win.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its referenced in WOTmania's Plots, Characters and the Wheel Of Time section.

 

When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

 

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

 

link here: http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58

[Davian93]

Yup that's it.  There's another one about the truthfulness of Ishy's comments but again I'm out of searches in the TL database and I dont feel like digging manually through the interviews.

[Samuraiflip05]

I still wonder at what would be in the turning of the wheel that causes all knowledge of the DO to fade from memory.  Even after the cataclysmic Breaking knowledge and memory of DO and AoL still exist (In limited degree).  What would it take to wipe the DO from the societal conscious.  Simply resealing the bore (Even completely) would not do such.  It would take something else, something more.  You can be fairly certain that this would be a neccesity as I doubt that all of the many ages that have passed have done so without knowledge of the DO.  I see more of a repetitive pattern (General not specific) caused by the wheel. 

[Angel of Death]

Back on the original topic. I like to think that yes the shadow has a 'dragon' but the DO has split it among many i.e. the forsaken. Bad Choice IMO.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why would the Pattern recirculate a champion for the being who wants to destroy it?  Neither Ishamael, nor any of the Forsaken are permanent "Champions of the Shadow".  He just takes what he can get each time ... there are always souls in the world who would be attracted to the Shadow.

[Davian93]

RAW makes a good point.

[cloglord]

It's not good enough though.  Why not ask, if the bore is such a danger to the pattern, why didn't it stop Mierin and Bedemon from creating it?  The pattern is fate, all it would have taken was a slip down some stairs for Lanfear, and the pattern is safe.  If we are trying to be logical about it , the pattern must have either wanted the bore, needed the bore, or at the very least was ambivalent to the bore in order for the bore to be created. 

 

It is a viable possibility that the pattern spins out a champion for the shadow, a foil for which the dragon can work against.  Certainly the pattern would not allow the Shadow's champion to accomplish certain goals, much as the pattern forces Rand in to certain actions.  However, the theme here is balance, Saidin balances Saidair, Light balances Dark, Order balances Chaos.  If Moraine can be believed it almost seems likely that Ishmael is the Anti-dragon.  She says that good and evil are the warp and woof of the pattern, without consistent evil threads to weave against the taveren, who knows what would happen?  Since Ishy claims this place, as the anti-dragon, I see no real reason not to believe him in this instance, that is except for all those other times he's lied.....:) 

[RobertAlexWillis]

It's not good enough though.  Why not ask, if the bore is such a danger to the pattern, why didn't it stop Mierin and Bedemon from creating it?

 

Because the Creator apparently believes in free will, and made his Creation in a way that allows such actions.  Just as he made the One Power available, but did not constrain its use.

 

There is a massive, important difference between allowing people free will to make choices within a system that can disrupt the system, and deliberately creating the system with a built-in disruption in place.

 

If Moraine can be believed it almost seems likely that Ishmael is the Anti-dragon. She says that good and evil are the warp and woof of the pattern, without consistent evil threads to weave against the taveren, who knows what would happen?

 

Frankly, I think she's wrong.  People's choices and actions are the warp and woof of the Pattern, whether they are good or evil.  The Pattern can handle them both, but does not require them both, in equal proportions.

 

Since Ishy claims this place, as the anti-dragon, I see no real reason not to believe him in this instance, that is except for all those other times he's lied ...

 

LOL ... do you really NEED one?

[Samuraiflip05]

Maybe the "Anti-Dragon" isn't always the same embodiment.  Where the Dragon seems to be a constant lifeline (Reincanation of same soul) perhaps the other is simply that which is most against the current Dragon embodiment.  What would have happened if Ish and the Forsaken had died in the Breaking.  Could the current A-D then be someone in Rand's present.  Maybe someone who always felt like Rand got lucky beating him in competitions/ with girls etc.  Then when the whole DR thing comes out this person goes ballistic and joins DO.

[Davian93]

It is a viable possibility that the pattern spins out a champion for the shadow, a foil for which the dragon can work against.

 

The Pattern represents Order. The Shadow is destuction and chaos, it is the antithesis of the Pattern and Wheel.  That being said, it is very unlikely that the Pattern would purposely spin out a champion for the shadow.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Maybe the "Anti-Dragon" isn't always the same embodiment.  Where the Dragon seems to be a constant lifeline (Reincanation of same soul) perhaps the other is simply that which is most against the current Dragon embodiment.  What would have happened if Ish and the Forsaken had died in the Breaking.  Could the current A-D then be someone in Rand's present.  Maybe someone who always felt like Rand got lucky beating him in competitions/ with girls etc.  Then when the whole DR thing comes out this person goes ballistic and joins DO.

 

Thats basically what I said, I think.  The Dark One just makes do with whoever is willing to side with him in that time and place, and there are always people who are willing.  But that is not because the Pattern "deliberately" spins some out; its because people have free will, and some choose to use it to help the Shadow.

[cloglord]

The Pattern represents Order. The Shadow is destuction and chaos, it is the antithesis of the Pattern and Wheel.  That being said, it is very unlikely that the Pattern would purposely spin out a champion for the shadow.

 

I don't disagree, except for the last part.  The pattern is order, The DO is chaos, and the antithesis of the pattern.  Yet, the pattern isn't perfect order, it is the interweaving of good and evil.  It is the organization of things, the constant bringing of order from chaos.  We should be careful to differentiate these things, any player of D&D, (and I have to believe that there are few around these parts,) knows that that "good" & "order" are not synonymous, nor are "evil" & "chaos."  In this paradigm the Creator would be the embodiment of order, the DO the embodiment of chaos.  Similarly, one could say that the Dragon is the embodiment of Good, and this hypothetical Anti-dragon would be the embodiment of Evil.  Rand isn't exactly the most ordered person, in fact the monicer "Lord of Chaos"  might be indicative.  Ishmael seems/ed awfully intent on his "plans" for the embodyment of Chaos as well.

 

Because the Creator apparently believes in free will, and made his Creation in a way that allows such actions.  Just as he made the One Power available, but did not constrain its use.

 

The kind of freewill that constrains taveren?  Rand didn't have a lot of choice about whether he was going to proclaim himself dragon.  If the pattern  used Ishmael to taunt Rand in his dreams in order to convince him to attempt callandor, wouldn't that make Ishmael taveren?  By the definition of taveren it would, why is it impossible that the pattern would use an evil person to achieve its goals?

[Davian93]

Yet, the pattern isn't perfect order, it is the interweaving of good and evil

 

The Pattern is neither good nor evil, but completely neutral.  As long as there is no hole in the DO's prison (i.e. before Mierin drills the bore) there was no need for the Dragon.  Ta'veren, in a boreless world, are only there to keep the Wheel spinning evenly and have nothing to do with good or evil. 

[cloglord]

The Pattern is neither good nor evil, but completely neutral.

 

Yes, because it is a perfect balance of good and evil.  Look at the taveren effect for example, for every good thing that happens because of the taveren effect there is an evil one. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, because it is a perfect balance of good and evil.

 

Thats one heck of an assumption.

 

Look at the taveren effect for example, for every good thing that happens because of the taveren effect there is an evil one. 

 

No, there are some good, and some bad, but we don't know that they are in equal proportion, especially in their total effect.

 

You're assuming that because both good and evil exist, that they exist equally.  I simply don't agree.

[Samuraiflip05]

Yes, because it is a perfect balance of good and evil.

 

Thats one heck of an assumption.

 

Look at the taveren effect for example, for every good thing that happens because of the taveren effect there is an evil one. 

 

No, there are some good, and some bad, but we don't know that they are in equal proportion, especially in their total effect.

 

You're assuming that because both good and evil exist, that they exist equally.  I simply don't agree.

 

Yes, actually it is the fluctuations of "balance" that give most of the basis for stories like this one.  AoL was the ending of a period where good may have been flexing the stronger muscle.  The 3rd Age may be when evil tries to reverse that trend.  All speculation of course

[Kura]

Hmm, well. Continuing the DnD trend, I'd say the Creator was Lawful neutral, DO chaotic neutral, the patern true neutral. With that in mind, Rand could be neutral good (in a loose sense  :P) and Ishy neutral evil.

 

Using this set up, it does fill up the requirement is completely neutral, and the creator being order, since this seems his preference over balance and it is the opposite of chaos, which balance isn't. DO gets to let the Lord of Chaos Rule, while forgiving some of the good that has come from it. Rand can break the rules, while fighting for the greater good, though he may need to repent to keep his alignment (Sorry for all non-DnD players who didn't get that fully.) And Ishy fulfills the pattern's will of balance, and being the anti-these of Rand.

 

This could probably use a bit of work, especially with the two champions, but I think it fits. Also, it gives a reason for the shadow-champion, though it seems a paradox for the pattern, it achieves the greater goal of balance between all things.

 

Feel free to tear it apart or ask questions, since I didn't explain alignments to the non-players. Sorry, its midnight and I have to get up at 6. ;)