logain..could he be the saviour??

[Davian93]

this has gotten fairly heated.

 

You might want to look in Ares direction for that since he essentially started off his post by personally flaming me...but I guess that is his way of welcoming people to Dragonmount.

 

LTT was there at the wells when rand burst out of the box, actually LTT showed rand how to break the sheild. LTT was with rand when he severed the AS.

LTT was there to show rand how to weave deathgates.

these were fairly stressful and emotional moments for rand, and LTT was there.

for myself, it is the active interaction that makes LTT more real and less construct. he provides information known only to LTT and shows rand some pretty nifty and useful tricks that rand may otherwise have never been able to think of. many of the weaves taught by LTT to rand have not been seen since the war of power.

 

This issue is not whether or not Rand has access to LTT's memories (we all agree that he does).  It is whether these memories constitute a true personality and furthermore is that actually LTT's real personality from the AoL or is a construct created by Rand to help heal with these memories in his head and as an outlet for his emotions.

 

 

[Terez]

Take a break, Davian...I'm pretty sure I can explain this better than you can.  ;)  Perhaps even better than Callandor...Callandor is the one that convinced me, but there are several aspects of his arguments that I disagree with, and his terminology I think is the worst aspect of it.  He uses quite a few too many terms that are interpreted differently by different people, and I agree with Ares that the "summation of memories" definition of personality isn't sufficient.  It's Callandor's idea that, for a personality to be "real" (which is the foremost of those ambiguous terms), then all of the memories must be present.  This seems to me to be blatantly false - even normal folks with only one set of memories are constantly learning and forgetting things.  What, then, is a "summation" of memories?  How can you describe any set of memories as being "complete"?  You simply can't.  Rand's Lews Therin memories are certainly spotty - not a set of memories that any person would consider normal in its scope.  The memories that come to Rand are usually the memories that he needs, but not always.  For instance, the memory of the plum orchard wasn't particularly vital, nor is the tendency to hum and thumb his earlobe when he sees a pretty woman.  But when Rand spoke to Taim about the Forsaken and their deeds, he certainly seemed to be drawing on a very comprehensive knowledge of the Forsaken.  A "summation" of Lews Therin's memories about them (this is perhaps the best example of a "summation" of memories from Lews Therin in the books).  But Rand thought of it afterward as though he consciously drew on these memories - certainly as if he made a conscious choice to speak the words.  Other things, such as Rand having to be told what certain Old Tongue words mean, show that the memories are limited, not only by the bits and pieces that every person forgets, but by whole large swaths of knowledge.  A normal person simply does not up and forget a language in which they are fluent.

 

There are a few other disagreements that I have with Callandor's theory - one of them is his method of "demonstrating" that Semirhage was lying, with the Graendal quote, which I believe can be interpreted a couple of different ways.  Semirhage's comments aren't particularly troubling to be, because I don't believe that, when she says Lews Therin's voice is "real", it necessarily means that she's implying that Lews Therin is a being with a mind of its own.  Yes, it's quite possible that she's lying, and it's pretty certain that she has a limited understanding of what's going on inside Rand's head, and also quite possible that even Graendal had a limited understanding of such things.  But Semirhage told them that Rand knew who she was because Lews Therin told him, which isn't exactly true.  Rand recognized Semirhage.  He recognized her because of Lews Therin's memories, but Lews Therin was silent.

 

The distinction that I feel is ultimately important in the Rand/Lews Therin situation is that Lews Therin is not a being with a mind of its own.  The speaking, acting Lews Therin is an illusion created by Rand because he refused to accept the memories, in much the same way as the body will sometimes reject an alien organ after a transplant operation, and for similar and yet completely different reasons, if that makes any sense.  :)  Rand wanted not only to disassociate himself from Lews Therin's legacy as much as possible, but he also hates the knowledge of what he might become.  This is evidence in his paranoia concerning the girls (how he's always trying to send them away, and taking great care to protect them), and it is especially evidenced in his excessive self-flagellation with the litany of dead women.  It is evidenced in his thoughts when he was first told that he was the Dragon Reborn, and it is evidenced in his extreme denial (I am not Lews Therin!  I am Rand al'Thor!) when he first realizes the source of his alien memories.

 

The issue of graduality (I think I just made that word up) isn't really one that can be claimed by either side as an indicator of the correctness of their theory, but I believe that the specific manner in which Rand developed the ability to actually converse with Lews Therin is pretty telling.  The Fires of Heaven is pretty much the exposition of Lews Therin (Rand didn't realize, or at least didn't admit to himself where the memories were coming from before Chapter 6 of that book), but that ability to converse was developed in Lord of Chaos.  Those two books in particular are, I feel, vital to understanding the nature of the relationship between Rand and Lews Therin.

 

this has gotten fairly heated.

This debate usually does get that way, but it doesn't have to stay that way - I'm sure that everyone here (including Ares and Davian) are capable of discussing this rationally and politely.

 

LTT was there at the wells when rand burst out of the box, actually LTT showed rand how to break the sheild.

Yes, this is the first time that Rand and Lews Therin really have what might be considered a conversation, and also one of the only times that Lews Therin has actually "told" Rand how to do something.  Usually, important memories come to Rand without commentary, and the commentary is generally  arbitrary.

 

LTT was with rand when he severed the AS.

Lews Therin is an aspect of Rand - or an aspect of his soul, if you prefer.  He's always "with" Rand.  But between Cadsuane's comment about voices and madness, and Rand's first meeting with Torval, Lews Therin apparently wasn't "with" Rand.  Do you know why?  Do you know where he might have been?

 

LTT was there to show rand how to weave deathgates.

Whether you believe that Lews Therin has a mind of his own or not, Lews Therin didn't "show" Rand how to weave Deathgates.  Rand (or Lews Therin) just wove them, and as they were forming, Rand knew what those weaves were called, with no commentary.

 

these were fairly stressful and emotional moments for rand, and LTT was there.

I'm of the opinion that Lews Therin, the apparently sentient personality, is born of stressful moments - in particular the stress that the memories cause Rand, and his desire to disassociate himself from those memories by denying them.

 

for myself, it is the active interaction that makes LTT more real and less construct.

Have you ever read Calvin and Hobbes?

 

he provides information known only to LTT and shows rand some pretty nifty and useful tricks that rand may otherwise have never been able to think of. many of the weaves taught by LTT to rand have not been seen since the war of power.

It's undeniable that Rand has gained a great deal of vital knowledge from Lews Therin's memories, but most of the important stuff comes to Rand without commentary.  Lews Therin's "presence" is generally very arbitrary, and as far as I can see, it only serves one real purpose.  With Lews Therin's "presence", Rand can pretend that the memories have nothing to do with him (especially those memories of his final mad act, and what we saw in the prologue of The Eye of the World).  Also, it is a convenient outlet not only for that guilt but also for other thoughts and emotions that Rand finds inconvenient.  Lews Therin's wild reactions to Taim and Asha'man in general are a good example of this - when Lews Therin is "gone" in the period I mentioned before, those thoughts and emotions remain, but Rand can no longer pretend that they are not his own thoughts.

 

This is a rather involved subject, though I feel that the construct theory satisfies Occam's Razor far better than the assumption that Lews Therin is a sentient entity separate from Rand (why some supernatural being whose "presence" isn't quite logical when there is a much simpler and logical psychological explanation?) and what I've said here isn't anywhere near a comprehensive defense of this theory - I'll probably never have time to present a comprehensive defense on this board - but I hope I was able to elucidate what the construct theory actually implies.

[lou]

Posted on: October 11, 2007, 09:57:26 AMPosted by: Davian93

Yes...the memories are real. The rest is created by Rand to explain why he has them. If LTT is real, why is he never there when Rand's emotions are out of control? Why does he show up when Rand is holding everything in?

 

this is what i was responding to, the suggestion that LTT is never there when rand is out of control. this is incorrect.

[RobertAlexWillis]

One of the biggest holes in this theory is that Lews Therin actually took conscious control of the Power away from Rand, in a situation in which Rand had nothing to rationalize away.  So ... if Lews Therin is truly just a construction of Rand's subconscious, then why did that happen?  There was no need for it ... Rand was fighting against Shadowspawn, saving his friends at the sacrifice of nothing he valued ... if the Lews Therin personality is just a construct to help Rand think he's keeping his sanity, there is absolutely no reason for that entire sequence.

 

Is Lews Therin a "separate person" in the sense of an entire, complete, coherent personality?  No.  But is he "just a construct" of Rand's subconscious?  No.

 

The situation is simply more complicated than that.  And its not a situation that can be described in the terms available to psychology today, because it isn't a real situation.

[Luckers]

Indeed. The functional nature of the Lews Therin personality combined with the obvious personal knowledge (Lews Therin's knowledge) and the fact that we know that each manifestation of the soul has its own distinct personality, and the fact that we know that such previous personalities can manifests themselves essentially rob this argument of any validity.

[wvlr]

The situation is simply more complicated than that.  And its not a situation that can be described in the terms available to psychology today, because it isn't a real situation.

 

On that I agree with you Robert.    RJ seems to have used some aspects of Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD) currently called Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) and also Schizophrenia to create the basis for this condition in Rand but has come up with something that is clearly beyond either description (Fiction).

 

I find it really interesting what RJ has done and while I found Callandor's explanation to be a valiant effort to explain the issue, it just was not clear (As if I could do any better - NOT) but I will put in my 2 pence worth.  What I found much more reveling were Callandor's quotes from the books.    When all put together like that, to me they seem undeniable.  That convinced me much more than Callandor's actual explanation.

 

The repeated references to Rand trying to push this thought down, push that thought down, mute that voice/thought etc. really stuck out when Callandor put them all together like that.  Rand is clearly trying to build a wall in his head between what he thinks is "himself/Rand" and that which he thinks is LTT.  But these are just memories.  With every attempt to separate the in-separatable (There is no actual dividing line in his skull between Rand Memories and LTT memories and there can never be) he is giving more and more power to his Mr. Hyde (LTT). 

 

This latest event has been coming for quite a while and just shows that Rand's "Madness" is getting worse because he is starting to give/attribute more and more but actual "power" to this fabrication.  Just like the Schizophrenic - "I did not do that terrible deed, LTT did it.  I tried but I could not stop him."

 

 

 

The Graendal & Lanfear exchange clearly shows that Semirhage statements in KoD are highly suspect if not blatant lies.    Graendal might indeed lie to Lanfear but she would never say something that would be so easily refuted/contradicted by Lanfear happening to talk to Semirhage about the same subject.    What else would the Forsaken be likely to talk about at that time than Rand's strange LTT "Memories"?

 

The same goes for Lanfears statement back to Graendal.  "He may be Lews Therin reborn, but he is not Lews Therin himself."  In other words Rand may have LTT's memories but he does not have LTT’s personality.

 

Now Lanfear has already shown that she is recklessly hung up on LTT so she could be lying to "protect herself" but I think that she is telling the truth in this instance because I have seen nothing in any of Rand/LTT actions or voices that seem to be significantly different than I would expect from RAND.

 

Unless you think that LTT who was born and raised in the good life of the AoL and who lives several hundred years just happens to have exactly the same personality and psychological hang-ups of a 20 year old farmer in the current Age.    LTT was a commander during the WoP and the leader of the Servants for a while.  If he was really alive in Rand's head and not just memories then I would think that he would be giving Rand massive AoL type of advice.    Or at least showing attempts to have intelligent conversations.    "No Rand that is not a good idea, we should do this and this and this.  And the plan should go like this.    Shut up, you are just a country bumpkin.    Let me handle this."

 

Also, LTT was healed before he died so if Rand's inner voices were him, he should be sane instead of a babbling fool.

 

[SvetSedi]

Well from the people in TAR/bridget we know that the dead souls in between resurections have all their old memories from past lives.    So if Lewis Thelmen is real, where are all the other voices souls from his other lives.    There is only one because that is what Rand is expecting one from the Dragon so he attributes everything to Lewis Thelman.  It is just a construct - a tool of Rands madness to account for all these things and to allow him to try to separate them from himself which is not really possible.

[Mr Ares]

Here is my massively abridged version of Part 2. Everything contained within <> is either my abridging of the contents, or my comments on said abridging. The little left over is the authors own work. What's left is what I thought worth commenting on, as RAW and Luckers appear to have killed the main thrust of the theory more simply and eloquently than I could. And, credit where it's due, I've changed the author to the guy who could at least be bothered to write this (as opposed to Mr copy and Paste), even if it is almost as long as the original text

<Patroninsing suggestion we won't tell difference between concious and conscience, and failure on writers part to differentiate between internal monologue (everyone else) and internal dialogue (Rand)Some other stuff that I don't want to comment on, stuff about a madman (LTT) calling someone else mad as if this is some sort of point, Rand calling LTT mad when he clearly is, still thinking LTT=mad is not good enough explanation for his behaviour. Thing about dreams, and Rand getting LTT's as if this in no way contradicts Rand not reading LTT's thoughts. More stuff edited out, lack of realisation that subconcious habits of LTT's manifesting in Rand is not quite the same thing as him trying to take concious control, referencing "battle of self" in FOH and not moving hands after seizing source in KOD (and why does he do that? Independant action. Interesting.)More failure to realize that LTT may be a constant presence, but Rand is simply unaware of him - a possible explanation, more of absurd suggestion that LTT must be on or off like a lightbulb, denying outright possibility of being partially there. Later, writer shows inability to grasp that 2 people may suggest same course of action (kill Torval), when any reasonable person would surely see that if one of them can pick up on signs that all is not right, the other may as well, and both may see this as a bad thing - obviously if I had the same idea as someone else, one of us must be a construct of the other. One thing just struck me - if Rand suppresses his emotions, that may make the unemotional Rand more suseptible to hearing what LTT is saying - LTT feels those feelings regardless of what Rand feels, but it is only when Rand supresses that he can hear LTT expressing those feelings.>It’s hard to find the right words to best describe how one views what Lews Therin truly is.<That hits the nail on the head. A large part of this is due to inadequate definitions - real, construct, personality are all terms needing better definition> “Personality.” Yeah, thanks, that helps not at all. How I view things, Lews Therin is by and large two symbiotic points:

 

1. Rand has suppressed many things that Lews Therin then expresses.

 

2. Lews Therin, deep down, is truly Rand.<I would agree with 1. Unfortunately, while this seems like a conclusion, there is still a huge amount left, and a lot of that is gonna get deleted. And are so many quotes needed, and in such great length? This theory was in serious need of massive editing>Popping out new weaves?<KOD, of course> Well, we’ve seen Rand do that plenty of times throughout the series. Is every single one of those instances and instance of Lews Therin channeling?<How many of those are attributed to LTT, and how many to Rand? If LTT's memories are constructiong the weave, and a conciousness calling itself, and called, LTT is doing the weaving, as opposed to the conciousness called Rand, then why should Rand be given credit? OTOH, if all we know is that Rand is doing something on his own, with no LTT, memories or otherwise, present, then we must give credit to Rand? How many times before this have we seen LTT seize saidin away from R and weave things of his own volition? If this is the 1st case of the LTT personality doing this, and other times were simply R acting on LTT's memories, then it is unprecendented, and so we shouldn't be shocked that what comes after has come before. If LTT has taken the OP before, why do we not get another in the endless list of quotes?> If so, why isn’t there any shock at him doing so? Why isn’t there any scrambling or a battle for saidin or to maintain it like here? Why isn’t there a conversation effectively “talking Lews Therin down” from killing himself?<Answered.>

End of Part 2

 

Part 3

<Starts with the last part, which I just refuted>

 

 

First off, she says Rand is insane. Well, no one truly doubts that.<Agree> Again, whether people believe Lews Therin is real or he is a construct, they still believe Rand is mad (though how a real voice in your head makes you mad is quite strange).<Having a voice in your head makes you mad - the voice may be real, but he is mad not because it is ral but because it is there. Not strange> Second, this isn't Semirhage's specialty, and that Graendal could explain better. I do not doubt this was not Semirhage's specialty, nor that it was Graendal's specialty with dealing with mental illness.<OK, she still cites a good source in the book, you have just invented a theory out of whole cloth.> Third, Semirhage's claim that voices people hear in their heads are past lives. Again, I do not disagree with this -- this is actually the point of my barrier degradation theory, and even Semirhage says it's very rare that this occurs. The vast majority of instances we've heard of however are taint madness of male channelers.<The only instance we have heard of is taint madness - Rand. The thing is, we are told that the taint causes madness, and causes a wasting sickness, and the latter is irrelevant to this matter. The "barrier degradation theory" is just that - another theory invented by the writer, not contained in the book. What we are told is that the taint causes madness, and that Rand has a form of madness. Simple. The theory callandor has come up with is that the taint destroyed the barriers between lives (which we don't know it can do) and this caused LTT's memories, but no-one elses, despite the fact that the Dragon soul must have been woven out before hundreds of times, to seep through into Rand's head, and his inability to deal with them makes him construct a new personality, which he calls LTT. Why this is preferable to taking what is actually in the books, I don't know, and why we shouldn't apply Occam's Razor I also don't know, but it is, and we shouldn't, for some reason, and so we allow this theory, which remains completely unsupported, to stand, and this forms the basis of another theory. Great. Now I'm not going to pretend that I am an expert in these matters, but when RJ says 1. Taint causes madness, and 2. Rand is mad, I have this unfortunate habit of thinking that this is enough, as opposed to thinking that we need to invent a new ability for the taint, to explain how Rand went mad. Another point is that callandor references a "vast majority" of cases - Rand is the only person we know of with this problem, and all the other cases of taint-induced madness we have seen are different problems. Like Morr reverting to the mind of a child. The taint does not induce a specific sort of madness, rather it causes mental instability, and Rand's mind happened to go unstable in a way that is very rarely seen, allowing LTT's personality and memories to seep through into Rand. Again, Rand=mad, taint causes madness, number of assumptions=1 (semi was right). Other theory, taint causes madness, rand=mad, taint destroys barriers between different lives (1), Semi was wrong (2), LTT is construct (3), number of assumptions=3. 3>1, and fewest number needed=simplest=mosty likely=up yours callandor. Oh, and surely saying Semi was right is the easiest course - she backs us up, not contradicts us, as she does to you.>

 

Fourth, and the key point, Semirhage's insistence that this voice is the real Lews Therin. What is she basing this on? From Lanfear's observations that Rand knew things from the Age of Legends that only Lews Therin could know. This isn't showing that he is hearing the real Lews Therin - this only highlights the entire issue with this debate. Simply having the knowledge (and only parts of the knowledge at that) from Lews Therin does not mean Rand has the real Lews Therin in his head. Yes, Rand has genuine memories from Lews Therin; but off of the basis of those memories, he has created this entire construct of his own, with what that entails as shown above.<The problem with this is, how did he get the memories in the first place. You see it as part of the taint's ability to degrade barriers between lives, despte the fact that we don't even know that this is possible, having no other evidence that it can happen beyond the case in question, Rand, which is somewhat suspect evidence, surely? If Semi has encountered it before, even if she hasn't studied it in depth (I have encountered people with all sorts of physical and mental problems, but I am hardly an expert) than she may know that people with past life memories often, maybe even always, have personalities as well, and so she puts 2 and 2 together - Rand has past life memories, people with past life memories have past life personalities, therefore Rand has a past life personality. Not hard, not unreasonable> Technically, I don't believe this is a lie. I view this as willingful deceit; she doesn't have all the information we do, but she is using what she does have to push an agenda of her own that is harmful to Rand. One can view it as a play on Jordan's theme of lack of complete knowledge (you know, one of the things that so many people complain about?).<We don't have all the information she has either...>

 

Fifth, this is what I believe is Semirhage's lie: that Graendal had a case like this before. Graendal herself, at a time when Rand was already showing signs of what would be Lews Therin in Lanfear's presence, has said that she has never heard of a case like Rand's before, let alone seen or dealt with one:

 

 

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TITLE: Fires of Heaven

CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Sparks Fall

 

"If this Rand al'Thor really is Lews Therin Telamon reborn," Graendal went on, settling herself on the man's back where he crouched on all fours, "I am surprised you haven't tried to snuggle him into your bed, Lanfear. Or would it be so easy? I seem to remember Lews Therin led you by the nose, not the other way around. Squelched your little tantrums. Sent you running to fetch his wine, in a manner of speaking." She set her own wine on the tray, held out rigidly by the sightlessly kneeling woman. "You were so obsessed with him you'd have stretched out at his feet if he said 'rug.'"

 

Lanfear's dark eyes glittered for a moment before she regained control of herself. "He may be Lews Therin reborn, but he is not Lews Therin himself."

 

"How do you know?" Graendal asked, smiling as if it were all a joke. "It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

 

Lanfear gave a disparaging smirk. "I have observed him closely. He is no more than the shepherd he seems, still more naive than not." Scorn faded to seriousness. "But now he has Asmodean, weak ally as he is. And even before Asmodean, four of the Chosen have died confronting him."

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<The first problem with this is that the Chosen lie to each other as well - if we say Semi is lying, we could also Greandal is. Or we could say that she mislead Lanfear, or just that the quote was ambiguous, saying "a specific man according to prophecy", for example, when she has seen cases of men reborn without prophecy, or she has never read of it but experienced it personally, twisting the truth like an Aes Sedai.>

 

 

A lot of people have interpreted this to mean that Rand's madness is not caused by the taint <Why? I agree with the author on this, at least. It was probably taint, in a large part, that drove him mad>(or that the taint didn't break down his barrier <Reasonable, as we don't know the taint can do this>). Even if we accept these statements as true <and there is no reason why we should, any more than we should Semi's, which are at least backed up by other evidence and reason.>, this just ascribes that Rand's condition is specific form of madness <Which it is.>. What does the taint do but drive male channelers mad?<Wasting sickness, nothing more.> The way that Lews Therin went mad in the Age of Legends, the way a male Aes Sedai went mad in the Age of Legends killing Aiel, the way that Fedwin Morr went mad, and the way that the unnamed recruit at the Black Tower went mad, have all been shown to be different, specific to each person.<As I already said - no specific taint madness, and no other example of PLM or PLV. Next para. was irrelevant, as it supports neither side - we both agree taint caused R's madness>

 

Sixth, yet another true remark I feel. Rand's descent has been nothing but abrupt when one looks at that Rand has been channeling for roughly about 2 years or a little more, and had Lews Therin with him for over a year to at most a year and a half. Just look at his condition now compared to the other 20 or so years of his life. The only thing to not make this abrupt would be if it happened within weeks, instead of a year or so. The descent into madness is surely abrupt, and I would say with any madness; that this is made worse by Rand having a real voice in his head, I believe is the same as the above lie.<What? Also, how abrupt is abrupt? And she was referring to terminal madness, for all we know R could go from where he is now to flat out crazy to dead within hours.>

 

Three final points that must be maintained when looking at her comments. First, Rand himself knows that Semirhage is dangerous even in a captivity situation. She knows that Rand's forces are the only things going for him now, and to cause ruination with those is a big service to the Shadow. I don't mean to imply that she deliberately allowed herself to be captured to spread this information; just that she is aware of it, and will use it whether her capture was intended to fail or not.

 

Second, we've seen countless times the Forsaken lie to each other, withhold truth from even their followers, for whenever it brings them gain. The fact that Semirhage is a Forsaken does not immediately cast doubt on her words. The fact that they are exceptionally vague, and truly do nothing other than assert that Lews Therin is "real" brings doubt on them.

 

Third, yet again, even if we accept Semirhage's words as true, it still leaves a multitude of issues that are completely unresolved, and bring up contention directly with Lews Therin being "real". Answers that involve Lews Therin being "real" are either completely nonexistent to those issues, or either wholly unsatisfying if not incoherent or contradictions.<Bullsh*t>

 

Why this is important:

 

I've heard people say that it doesn't matter whether Lews Therin is real or not; it's a moot point. Well, it's partially true. Whether Lews Therin is the real Lews Therin's personality or a construct made by Rand, it is still a vital problem for Rand. No one denies this. The same way that whether people believe Lews Therin is real or not do not doubt that Rand is mad (though I say their grounds for claiming so are quite foolhardy).

 

But that in no way makes this a moot point. On the contrary, that is what makes this distinction so important. Once we know what Lews Therin truly is, we can know how Rand will have to deal with him and eventually rid himself of Lews Therin (unless people subscribe to the idea that will never happen, in which this truly does become a moot point; however, I'm not one of those). Seeing the truth of this is obvious. The way to deal with a real personality in your head is quite different from dealing with a construct of your own making (consciously and/or subconsciously).<You know this how?>

 

If Lews Therin is a construct, it gives Rand the means to easily rid himself of Lews Therin, I believe. I view Lews Therin in a parallel to what is needed for a fire to be made. You need three key elements: air, heat, and fuel. Take away one of them and a fire will go out or will not form in the first place.

 

In time, things might be done to make Rand be able to integrate the continuing memories coming into his head in a fashion other than Lews Therin, but for now, I don't see much in the line of a workable method. Likewise, taint madness doesn't seem to be able to be Healed or dealt with in any usable fashion (True Power Healing works it seems <at least for a time>, but how that will be feasible I don't see occurring). Taking away the stress of being the Dragon Reborn is next to impossible if Rand continues to be the Dragon Reborn, and it's not like he stop being who he is, though I do feel the levels can be reduced in a way (IE: Min is a help here).

 

What's left to be dealt with is Rand's suppression of emotions. Since one of the key elements of Lews Therin is the output for Rand's emotions, without them being suppressed the need for Lews Therin will disappear. We've already seen an instance of this: again, when Lews Therin disappears from roughly the middle of A Crown of Swords till early The Path of Daggers. He actually expresses his emotions and Lews Therin disappears. After this, Rand eventually went back to suppressing more and more of his emotions, and Lews Therin gradually returned. How Lews Therin will disappear for good is by what Cadsuane has to teach Rand and all the Asha'man:

 

 

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TITLE: Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances

 

Still, Cadsuane felt a rising thrill of possibility. If she had had any doubts that Sorilea wanted to feel her out, they were gone. And you did not feel out someone in this manner unless you hoped for some agreement. "Do you believe a man must be hard?" she asked. She was taking a chance. "Or strong?" By her tone, she left no doubt she saw a difference.

 

Again Sorilea touched the tray; the smallest of smiles might have quirked her lips for an instant. Or not. "Most men see the two as one and the same, Cadsuane Melaidhrin. Strong endures; hard shatters."

 

Cadsuane drew breath. A chance she would have scoured anyone else for taking. But she was not anyone else, and sometimes chances had to be taken. "The boy confuses them," she said. "He needs to be strong, and makes himself harder. Too hard, already, and he will not stop until he is stopped. He has forgotten how to laugh except in bitterness; there are no tears left in him. Unless he finds laughter and tears again, the world faces disaster. He must learn that even the Dragon Reborn is flesh. If he goes to Tarmon Gai'don as he is, even his victory may be as dark as his defeat."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Cadsuane will teach Rand, and all the Asha'man, "laughter and tears" again.<She said she would teach that to Rand, I see know indication that all the Asha'men need to learn this lesson. Some, yes. Not all> How this will be done is through another aspect that others have deemed a sign of madness: Rand's litany of dead women he keeps. Who leads the top of this list? None other than Moiraine, who, as it just so happens, is not dead. Who Min has had viewings of, and we know those do not fail. Who is by far the most likely candidate for being the one who is "dead and gone" that Rand will fail without.

 

With Moiraine's eventual return, and Rand's knowledge of this, I could hardly pick a better incident to cause Rand to finally express his emotions and destroy the list at the same time. The list creates another need to suppress emotions, to become "harder", and with the list gone it removes a key place where Lews Therin is needed. Removing the list I don't think removes Lews Therin; however, it's surely a big step along the path to doing so, will surely be done, and (in undoubtedly a very annoying process) will be exploited by Cadsuane to do the job.

 

Predictions:

 

Out of all of this, if it is true, I predict five things to "occur". I say occur this way because some of these aren't truly events that will happen per se.

 

1. Rand cannot lose a battle of self. Since Lews Therin deep down is Rand, it is impossible for Rand to take over himself. If Rand were to "lose" a battle of self, he would instead realize that nothing has happened -- that Lews Therin has been a construct all this time.<Well, your theory, but I don't think it will happen anyway. Your theory is still wrong though>

 

2. Without some of the key aspects of Lews Therin, the personality will be no more. As I explained above, without the emotional "core" that is Lews Therin, there will no longer be a need for him.<I disagree - while there may be no need for him, he will still be around, because he isn't something Rand has made>

 

3. The "removal" of Lews Therin will be spurred by Cadsuane. What Cadsuane will teach Rand, and all the Asha'man, is laughter and tears, that he is still human. Whether this will be an intended result of Cadsuane's teaching, I have no true opinion on. I can see it occurring perfectly fine that Cadsuane teaches Rand and the Asha'man that they are human for no other reason than she thinks it's right, rather than she is teaching him this intending to "remove" Lews Therin.<I disagree. I don't think that learning "laughter and tears" is the lesson that all the Asha'men need to learn, neither do I think they all need to relearn that they are human - to the contrary, I doubt most of them have forgotten this. Neither do I think this will get rid of LTT, although it may help. I think he needs to reintergrate LTT, in a way very similar to what has been suggested to get rid of him, but it will basically be the 2 merging into 1. Which ultimately comes down to hair splitting - "Rand" will be left, more or less the man he was, with the memories of both men incorporated into one person. But LTT wasn't a construct, he was a separate personality, and now the 2 are just 1, neither Rand nor LTT, but part of each (mostly Rand). Like I say, it's largely hair-splitting, as Rand needs to incorporate LTT whether he is real or construct. And I think that a good possibility for what Cadsuane will teach the Asha'men is that they can still go mad, that the removal of the taint removed one risk, they have as much chance of going crazy as anyone else>

 

4. Moiraine's return will be one of the central, if not the central, points to Cadsuane doing this. Moiraine's return will almost surely cause the litany in Rand to be useless as I have pointed out above.<I agree, but this will only help Rand>

 

5. Semirhage's comments will be shown to be overall misleading, and meant to cause damage to Rand and his followers. As I pointed out above, I do believe some of her comments to be true, but that the truth of some portions is meant to give greater importance to the lies contained.<I think they were largely true, but I agreeon her motives for saying it>

 

So that is in effect why Lews Therin is<n't> a construct of Rand's.

Some interesting points in Part 3, so a lot of that survived.

 

Now, to reply to some others:

Apologize to Luckers, not me. Or face the consequences.

~shivers~  Oh no, not consequences.  What would the great Luckers do to me???  I'd better run now and hide. 

 

Seriously though Ares, if you want to engage in an actual debate with logic and quoting of the material, that's fine.  If you wish to engage in personal attacks and blathering on like a 12 year old, feel free. I will participate in the former but that the latter.

Firstly, it's Mr Ares, bitch, get it right. Secondly, if you wish to complain about other people making personal attacks, first wait till I've made one, don't complain when I make a lighthearted jest, and don't issue personal attacks against me, that is hypocritical, and will win you few fans.

 

The taint causes madness, and we are told this is a form of madness - ever heard of Occam's Razor?

Actually, yes I have heard of it.  You forget that this is not the first time I've ever posted on a discussion board. We are told by Semi, who has every reason to not be truthful.  She is a manipulative conniving person who is trying to take support away from Rand. Like any good liar, she mixes in truth but is ultimately misleading.  But we already know all this about her...or would you have me reference the BWB to you?

No, I don't need a reference. I do think you need to apply Occam's Razor, though. After all, taint causes madness, Rand is mad, nuff said. OTOH, we have Semi lied, Rand is mad, he got the moemories from what? We now need to invent an entirely new ability for the taint, that it can bring LTT's memories to Rand, while if wee accept what Semi said, we have a rare form of madness and something that causes madness, all stated in the text. You see why you might need a lesson, if you need to invent a theory, just to make a theory? If you accept that PLV's are a rare form of madness, as stated, then how few assumptions do you need to make, compared to LTT is a construct, which requires inventing a new ability for the taint to even get his memories into Rand's head.

 

Thank you Davian, that was very succinct, and it does at least prove your mastery of the copy and paste functions, if nothing else. Now, to savage this. At least as it is not your work, you will not be offended should when I give insult to the windbag that wrote this. <The original post has been edited to make it readable

Pot, Kettle, Black.  Where were you?What do you mean, where was I? I was at home reading that theory. And you? And what's with the Pot. Kettle. Black comment? I know I can go on at length sometimes, but I have never written, nor even seen, a theory of such length. Your casual and minor insult, which is of course beneath someone as disinclined to enage in insulting someone as you are, only makes sense if the pot was a sort of greyish colour to begin with, and is calling a black kettle black. And if I was the pot of course. And so what was your point?

 

Instead of redoing all the work, yes I will reference an already completed and well-researched theory on the matter that I happen to agree with.(and I am hardly alone in this)  I do believe in actually referencing the text and interviews to prove a point.

You are hardly alone in that, but it is possible to be a little more brief than callandor was, and still get the point accross.

 

OK, so a personality is a summation of memories...and we know that the memories are LTT's, so it is a summation of LTT's memories, but is somehow not his personality. OK, someone didn't think that one through. I think I was just proved right..........Oh, you want more?!?! lousy bunch of ingrates... Doesn't this disagree with you, young Davian? (I'm a century old, give or take, don't complain about being called young unless you're in your eighties at least).

To help you understand, since I know that older people oftentimes suffer from decreased brain activity, answer this question: Does a person who suffers from amnesia still have a personality?  You answered Yes I assume. Therefore memories DO NOT make the personality.  While Rand may have the memories of LTT, he created the personality all on his own.

Very generous of you to help my impaired understanding child(although I understand that young people also have difficulty sometimes). But here's the problem: the definition was not mine, but callandor's. Form the well researched theory you agree with. To follow that definition to its logical conclusion, one found that LTT was real. Callandor would have seen that if he had tought about his definition, and so would you, if you had thought about it. That I picked up on a problem with callandor's definition (which was discarded seemingly right after use) shows that I have enough neurons still firing. And as to your question, I wouldn't answer yes. I would answer "to what degree has the amnesiac in questin been deprived of his or her  memories?" No memories of anything=no personality, and no personal memories can lead to persoanlity changes, so there would appear to be some sort of relationship between memory and personality. If you had disagreed with the original definition, you should have said so. If you ask a question, it is polite to wait for a reply (looks like you need as many leesons in that as Rand does, so maybe you should think of me as your Cadsuane, except younger, better looking, male, and liable to kill you if I ever met you in the street. It's not like you would be missed, is it?).

 

All this together, and you would harldy think LTT is real is an unwarranted conclusion, unless you think with your arse as well as talking out of it. If you were then told that 6 may be a lie, and yet it fits what you know, why would you refuse to accept it as truth unless you had contradictory EVIDENCE? Of course, if we define a personality as a summation of memories, and find Rand in possession of a bunch of unintegrated memories not his own, then why would we be surprised when a personality that corresponds to those memories arises? Maybe Rand could have avoided having those fragments of memory floating loose, and tried to integrate them, maybe not, maybe LTT is partly a construct of Rand's subconcious, a desire for these memories to remain "not his", and a way to deal with the emotion that he suppresses, but that still leaves LTT as in a large part real, and I see no evidence to the contrary. So LTT is real - at least in part. It fits the evidence.

Yes...the memories are real. The rest is created by Rand to explain why he has them. If LTT is real, why is he never there when Rand's emotions are out of control? Why does he show up when Rand is holding everything in?

So where does he get these memories? How many assumptions (unnecessary assumptions, at that) do you need? And evidence, like I asked for, that he isn't real, as we have been told he is. And young lou, my lovely assisstant, has already provided said evidence. LOC and KOD, Rand shows emotion but a separate LTT is there. You are (or at least appear to be) wrong. QED. Thank you, lou, those examples were helpful.

this has gotten fairly heated.

You might want to look in Ares direction for that since he essentially started off his post by personally flaming me...but I guess that is his way of welcoming people to Dragonmount.

In the Mr Ares direction, if you please, child. And I think it a sad state of affairs that you are unable to see that you were making things "heated" as much as far more than anyone else. And while I have given a couple of people a "baptism of fire" on their arrival on these forums, after they provided theories of less worth than you own, I might add, you were not one of them. My initial responses to you were restraines, or at least as restraines as I ever get. I offered no real insult, you inferred it. If you cannot take a joke, I suggest you leave the forums, as you will doubtless encounter them again, and we wouldn't want your suffering on our collective4 conscience

 

 

LTT was there at the wells when rand burst out of the box, actually LTT showed rand how to break the sheild. LTT was with rand when he severed the AS.

LTT was there to show rand how to weave deathgates.

these were fairly stressful and emotional moments for rand, and LTT was there.

for myself, it is the active interaction that makes LTT more real and less construct. he provides information known only to LTT and shows rand some pretty nifty and useful tricks that rand may otherwise have never been able to think of. many of the weaves taught by LTT to rand have not been seen since the war of power.

This issue is not whether or not Rand has access to LTT's memories (we all agree that he does).  It is whether these memories constitute a true personality and furthermore is that actually LTT's real personality from the AoL or is a construct created by Rand to help heal with these memories in his head and as an outlet for his emotions.

You ignore the relevant point - at times when Rand was not suppressing emotion, or at least not to a great degree, LTT was there, separate from Rand.

 

Callandor is the one that convinced me,

He's got to you to? Oh dear

but there are several aspects of his arguments that I disagree with, and his terminology I think is the worst aspect of it.  He uses quite a few too many terms that are interpreted differently by different people, and I agree with Mr<get it right> Ares that the "summation of memories" definition of personality isn't sufficient.

My central point was that he didn't look into his definition, and come to the conclusion that if a personality is a summation of memories, and the memories are LTT's, then so is the personality. It suffices for my purposes, but not for yours, alas.

It's Callandor's idea that, for a personality to be "real" (which is the foremost of those ambiguous terms), then all of the memories must be present. This seems to me to be blatantly false - even normal folks with only one set of memories are constantly learning and forgetting things. What, then, is a "summation" of memories?  How can you describe any set of memories as being "complete"? You simply can't. Rand's Lews Therin memories are certainly spotty - not a set of memories that any person would consider normal in its scope. The memories that come to Rand are usually the memories that he needs, but not always.  For instance, the memory of the plum orchard wasn't particularly vital, nor is the tendency to hum and thumb his earlobe when he sees a pretty woman. But when Rand spoke to Taim about the Forsaken and their deeds, he certainly seemed to be drawing on a very comprehensive knowledge of the Forsaken. A "summation" of Lews Therin's memories about them (this is perhaps the best example of a "summation" of memories from Lews Therin in the books). But Rand thought of it afterward as though he consciously drew on these memories - certainly as if he made a conscious choice to speak the words. Other things, such as Rand having to be told what certain Old Tongue words mean, show that the memories are limited, not only by the bits and pieces that every person forgets, but by whole large swaths of knowledge. A normal person simply does not up and forget a language in which they are fluent.

I would agree with this. Really, better terminology is needed. And, like I said, why must the memory set be complete? Maybe all it would take is a critical mass to make LTT "real"

 

There are a few other disagreements that I have with Callandor's theory - one of them is his method of "demonstrating" that Semirhage was lying, with the Graendal quote, which I believe can be interpreted a couple of different ways.  Semirhage's comments aren't particularly troubling to be, because I don't believe that, when she says Lews Therin's voice is "real", it necessarily means that she's implying that Lews Therin is a being with a mind of its own. Yes, it's quite possible that she's lying, and it's pretty certain that she has a limited understanding of what's going on inside Rand's head, and also quite possible that even Graendal had a limited understanding of such things.  But Semirhage told them that Rand knew who she was because Lews Therin told him, which isn't exactly true.  Rand recognized Semirhage.  He recognized her because of Lews Therin's memories, but Lews Therin was silent.

The question then becomes how and why does Rand ahve these memories? And surely, if he got the info from LTT's memories, that could be considered LTT telling him.

 

The distinction that I feel is ultimately important in the Rand/Lews Therin situation is that Lews Therin is not a being with a mind of its own.

Really? It does appear to, to a certain extent

The speaking, acting Lews Therin is an illusion created by Rand because he refused to accept the memories, in much the same way as the body will sometimes reject an alien organ after a transplant operation, and for similar and yet completely different reasons, if that makes any sense.

But why does he have the memories? We are told that it is madness, the same madness that makes LTT manifest, so why invent something more without need?

Rand wanted not only to disassociate himself from Lews Therin's legacy as much as possible, but he also hates the knowledge of what he might become. This is evidence in his paranoia concerning the girls (how he's always trying to send them away, and taking great care to protect them), and it is especially evidenced in his excessive self-flagellation with the litany of dead women. It is evidenced in his thoughts when he was first told that he was the Dragon Reborn, and it is evidenced in his extreme denial (I am not Lews Therin!  I am Rand al'Thor!) when he first realizes the source of his alien memories.

These things may be contributing factors, but the central cause is the taint, causing a madness of another man, memories and personality, to manifest in his head.

 

Quote from: lou on October 12, 2007, 12:09:11 AM

this has gotten fairly heated.

This debate usually does get that way, but it doesn't have to stay that way - I'm sure that everyone here (including Ares and Davian) are capable of discussing this rationally and politely.

Well, I'm willing to start being polite if he is prepared to start being rational *offers ahnd for shaking* Of course, I am always rational, even when irrational, and I'm not convinced that Davian can start being polite at such short notice, but I'm sure he'll prove me wrong.

 

LTT was with rand when he severed the AS.

Lews Therin is an aspect of Rand - or an aspect of his soul, if you prefer.  He's always "with" Rand.  But between Cadsuane's comment about voices and madness, and Rand's first meeting with Torval, Lews Therin apparently wasn't "with" Rand.  Do you know why?  Do you know where he might have been?

They are both aspects of the same soul, but it belongs to neither. And do you know where he was? He could simply have "retreated" to Rand's subconcious.

 

LTT was there to show rand how to weave deathgates.

Whether you believe that Lews Therin has a mind of his own or not, Lews Therin didn't "show" Rand how to weave Deathgates.  Rand (or Lews Therin) just wove them, and as they were forming, Rand knew what those weaves were called, with no commentary.

Almost like he'd read rand's mind, even. But what was Rand repressing at the time? Why was LTT there, and acting separately from Rand?

 

 

 

these were fairly stressful and emotional moments for rand, and LTT was there.

I'm of the opinion that Lews Therin, the apparently sentient personality, is born of stressful moments - in particular the stress that the memories cause Rand, and his desire to disassociate himself from those memories by denying them.

But Rand wasn't denying them at the time. So why was LTT there? And why did he have the memories in the first place?

 

for myself, it is the active interaction that makes LTT more real and less construct.

Have you ever read Calvin and Hobbes?

It's funny but irrelevant.

 

he provides information known only to LTT and shows rand some pretty nifty and useful tricks that rand may otherwise have never been able to think of. many of the weaves taught by LTT to rand have not been seen since the war of power.

It's undeniable that Rand has gained a great deal of vital knowledge from Lews Therin's memories, but most of the important stuff comes to Rand without commentary.  Lews Therin's "presence" is generally very arbitrary, and as far as I can see, it only serves one real purpose.  With Lews Therin's "presence", Rand can pretend that the memories have nothing to do with him (especially those memories of his final mad act, and what we saw in the prologue of The Eye of the World).  Also, it is a convenient outlet not only for that guilt but also for other thoughts and emotions that Rand finds inconvenient.  Lews Therin's wild reactions to Taim and Asha'man in general are a good example of this - when Lews Therin is "gone" in the period I mentioned before, those thoughts and emotions remain, but Rand can no longer pretend that they are not his own thoughts.

 

This is a rather involved subject, though I feel that the construct theory satisfies Occam's Razor far better than the assumption that Lews Therin is a sentient entity separate from Rand (why some supernatural being whose "presence" isn't quite logical when there is a much simpler and logical psychological explanation?) and what I've said here isn't anywhere near a comprehensive defense of this theory - I'll probably never have time to present a comprehensive defense on this board - but I hope I was able to elucidate what the construct theory actually implies.

Firstly, I fail to see anything illogical in LTT's presence. Secondly, Occam's Razor means we get rid of unecessary assumptions, that we make our theory as simple as we can and still workable (more or less, we can accept this a working definition). So why don't we look at the necessary assumptions. LTT=real requires what? Rand is mad is something we are told, that the taint causes madness is also something we are told, and that's it. What Semi says fits the facts. We need no assumption beyond her lying, and even then it fits the facts. If LTT=construct, then the first problem is how do the memories get in his head? What we are told is that Rand having LTT is a form of madness. The memories are part and parcel of that madness. But you must invent a way to even get the memories into his head - the barrier degradation theory. So we invent a new ability for the taint, we apply it to Rand, we then say that he just gets memories, and so while the constructed personality is part of his madness we must make assumptions for him to get the memories that are the reason that personality is who it is, LTT. Who neds fewer assumptions? What we are told in the book requires only that we believe what we have been told, and put together for ourselves, not that we invent new abilities. It is RJ who invents the supernatural process involved, not us.

 

Luckers and RAW, thanks for the support, good to see this theory get the kicking it deserves.

 

We know that Birgitte and other Heroes in T'A'R contain all their memories. If LTT is real, where are all his other memories, from his other past lives? Rand only expects one, so there is only one, LTT is a construct. It is just a tool to allow Rand to remain sane.

Firstly, I hope I managed to keep your argument intact there, and that you don't think that constitutes a misrepresentation of your post. Secondly, absolute crap. The memories are real, right? So where did they come from? We know the memories are real, so how do they get in his head? If we go with BDT, then why don't other peoples memories come through? If we say madness, then we can say that it is the personality and memories of LTT alone that manifested. If we say something else, then how come Rand has all this knowledge of the Chosen? It's real, so the memories accompanying it probably are. So if he gets real memories, why just his past life? Why doesn't he get memories from all of them?

 

(As if I could do any better - NOT)

It would be hard to do worse.

 

And again, why does LTT seize control on an occasion when Rand isn't suppressing?

The Graendal & Lanfear exchange clearly shows that Semirhage statements in KoD are highly suspect if not blatant lies. Graendal might indeed lie to Lanfear but she would never say something that would be so easily refuted/contradicted by Lanfear happening to talk to Semirhage about the same subject. What else would the Forsaken be likely to talk about at that time than Rand's strange LTT "Memories"?

Well, I can't say for sure what's hot on the Chosen conversation agenda, but your point here is rubbish. G might lie to L, and if L goes to S who will she believe? G=expert, S doesn't. If S contradicts G, S could be lying, G could claim L misunderstood, G could claim she is the expert, and S is talking out of her arse. Why would L believe S over G?

 

The same goes for Lanfear's statement back to Graendal.  "He may be Lews Therin reborn, but he is not Lews Therin himself." In other words Rand may have LTT's memories but he does not have LTT’s personality.

True, but what's your point? All that means is that Rand isn't LTT, he could still have his voice.

 

Your next point shows you expect sanity from a crazy man. "Don't do it like that, farm boy" is sane, but crazy ranting is what we get, and why should we expect rational advice from a nutter?

Also, LTT was healed before he died so if Rand's inner voices were him, he should be sane instead of a babbling fool.

Thank you for your expert opinion....sure the Healing wasn't temporary? Sure the whole "dying" thing wouldn't have had an effect? LTT being mad is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

 

[Davian93]

Well, I'm willing to start being polite if he is prepared to start being rational *offers ahnd for shaking* Of course, I am always rational, even when irrational, and I'm not convinced that Davian can start being polite at such short notice, but I'm sure he'll prove me wrong.

 

You know, at first, I posted a massive attack on Ares but I decided to be the bigger person. 

 

I shake...

[lou]

logain anyone?

[Vambram]

Yes, may we PLEASE get back to discussing Logain? If thats not too difficult to attempt to do after all of these long long posts about Rand and LTT. :D