Retarded Myrdraal?

[RobertAlexWillis]

You all seem to be under the illusion that Rand Al'Thor's soul is the one who has been eternally fighting the shadow. Yet in the books it is postulated that the Creator has had many champions and some of those the DO has turned to his own gains.

 

Perhaps you could cite some of those references?  Keeping in mind that Ishamael is a lying liar who lies ... and works for the Father of Lies.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Really? And your including the fact that if that is his end goal he has had it in every turning? And, naturally, im sure you concidered the fact that as an end goal it may not be the goal of the end of this turning. Because God forbid breaking the wheel take time and effort.

 

Why would he wait?  I mean, you can create any number of "what ifs", but the indications in the story are that he's planning to break out this time ...

 

Really... why?

 

Because everyone in the books, who presumably has read more of the prophecies than we can see, is sure that thats what they mean.  They don't get EVERYTHING wrong.

 

Actually he's on the verge of breaking the seals. As far as we actually know that merely leaves him the same access as he had in the Age of Legends, which is far from 'breaking out on his own'.

 

Actually, the reason that Lews Therin went ahead with his plan to make the seals without all the support he really wanted to have was that they were all sure that the Dark One was about to break out.

 

I'm sorry, this comment seems to support me. Perhaps im misreading it, but you seem to be saying that if prolonging the conflict would succeed in gaining the Dark One ultimate victory than obviously he would do so.

 

In what way does this support your position? If he is being logical, then obviously turning the Dragon and not having to deal with his opposition in the generations to come is much more valuable than killing this incarnation and having to deal with the dragon time and again in the generations to come.

 

Your argument, as I understood it, was that he would not kill Rand, even if it meant assuring eventual victory, because it might delay him for a while.  I'm saying that IF Rand's death assures eventual victory, then there is no reason for him not to do it.

 

Actually mate, your saying that one of his specific actions indicate otherwise based on the information you have at hand.

 

Since that information is incomplete... well, you see my objection.

 

Thats why I said, right from the beginning, that if we get new information, then I would have to reassess.

 

Does it? I'm sure the Romans thought so before they crucified Jesus. You saw how well it worked out for them.

 

Yes, well, the Romans weren't Lords of the Grave, with a plan to break time itself, now were they?

 

The best way to win a fight is to END your enemy. In a world with reincarnation, killing him does not serve that purpose. Turning him to your cause does.

 

If that is the only way to "end" him, as you say, then it does make sense.  Which I've said all along.  However, since Ishamael did eventually try to kill him, using the True Power which requires the Dark One's specific approval, it seems the Dark One thinks there is a way to win without turning Rand.  In which case, he's an idiot to leave Rand alive.

 

Look ... we disagree on the root assumption of my argument, that is, that the Pattern needs Rand in order to win, and that the Dark One does not.  I think that assumption is warranted, based on what is in the books.  You do not.  Therefore, our positions are irreconcilable.  I can live with that.

 

[Jenkins]

Perhaps we're all thinking too much about it. Aside from the fact that there could not be 12 more books had Rand died in the inn, The fact is that Ishamael did not want him dead at that point in time. The Myrdraal presumably were under Ishy's command. The DO's orders, or rather, ability to order at that point in time are only assumptions. However, I think that it is intended to be believed that Ishy was the only Forsaken free. Also that the bore was very small and therefore the DO's insight on the world (and ability to order) was limited.

[TowerOfRavens]

I can book six LoC Chapter 6 Threads of the Shadow.

 

Sammael was neither philosopher nor theologian, yet Ishamael had been both, and he claimed to have divined secrets hidden in that fact. Ishamael had died mad true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they would drive Lews Therin to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on Since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using Human Surrogates. More he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free. Maybe Ishamael had been mad even then too, but there had been efforts to turn Lews Therin. And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creators Champion turned into a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadows Champion.

 

Ishy was also made Nae Blis so it seems that he has some idea of what the DO wants. You can argue if you want that Ishy was lying to the others. But why and for what purpose?? All his actions seem to point to the fact that he himself believes this and if the DO did not then why would he name him Nae Blis.

[Luckers]

You all seem to be under the illusion that Rand Al'Thor's soul is the one who has been eternally fighting the shadow. Yet in the books it is postulated that the Creator has had many champions and some of those the DO has turned to his own gains.

 

There have been no references to other souls playing the Dragon's role in resisting the Shadow. Ishamael claims that the Dragon's soul had, in the past, turned and served the Shadow, but RJ dismissed this saying 'and you believed Ishamael? I'm sorry man, but c'mon!'

 

DO cannot be destroyed and neither can the Creator, they merely play for the worlds the creator makes.

 

Actually we know the Dark One can be destroyed. RJ stated that balefire could be used to destroy him, though the amount required would also destroy the world. Moreover concidering there are limits to his power and abilities then logically the possibility exceeds to exceed that power and end it.

 

Not that i personally think the Dark One will be destroyed, but he is not required for the balance of the wheel, nor is the act itself impossible (merely implausible).

 

When Ishy enters Perrins dreams and encounters the wolf. He burns it saying that he has faced this before. How could Ishy have faced it before when they did not exist in the age of legends?

 

Firstly, Ishamael is a powerful dreamwalker, and many dreamwalkers have spoken of encountering wolves in the Dream. I have no doubt that a wolf would seek to assault Heartfang if it encountered him in a way that it could not run from.

 

Secondly, they knew of wolfbrothers in the Age of Legends, and Ishamael has lived nearly four thousand years in full. We have no idea just how rare this ability is, merely that it is very rare up until recently. Very rare is not non-existant.

 

Also RJ was religious and his books take from everything. The wheel of time itself is a Asian religious belief.

 

Actually the concept of the wheel can first be found in Vedic chants of northern India beginning at around the time of the Aryan invasion (kalpass), written in both Sanskrit and Pali. It doesn't enter China or Japan until around the time of Lao Tzu (curiously it passed through the Bonic faiths of what is now Tibet, which is why it gained a strong animistic twist as it entered China--some even claim that the idea of the circles of the world are what lead to the Taoist ingestion of mercury (quicksilver) in their bid for immortal and the perception of the Gods beyond).

 

Once in China it was quickly twisted out of the idea of a wheel of cyclical time and into the concept of the layers of heaven--likely a Confucian influence, though off the top of my head i can't recall.

 

I'm not really sure what any of that has to do with this though.

 

Why would he wait?  I mean, you can create any number of "what ifs", but the indications in the story are that he's planning to break out this time ...

 

Are they? Then why doesn't he kill Rand. Other than him being stupid i mean.

 

The indications you are speaking of are all human beliefs, and prophecies dealing specifically with this confrontation. From him comes a different set of indications.

 

Because everyone in the books, who presumably has read more of the prophecies than we can see, is sure that thats what they mean.  They don't get EVERYTHING wrong.

 

Except, oddly, Ishamael and the Dark One. The two best in position to know their own intentions. Ishamael may well be bugnuts, and the Dark One may very well be an embodiement of paradox, but neither are stupid.

 

I'm just saying... it seems silly (said nicely! don't hurt me!) to conclude that the Dark One is being stupid in persuing his goals when our knowledge of what those goals are come from a thirdhand source, and ones that can be pretty unclear. The one character who seems to actually have some idea of those goals and what must be done to achieve them is Ishamael, and he seems to be the one that is solidly backing the 'turn Rand' play.

 

I'm just saying...

 

Your argument, as I understood it, was that he would not kill Rand, even if it meant assuring eventual victory, because it might delay him for a while.  I'm saying that IF Rand's death assures eventual victory, then there is no reason for him not to do it.

 

No, I was saying that he would not kill Rand even if it meant local victory because in the long run it would threaten the eventual victory in that he would have to fight the Dragon soul more.

 

I was saying that in weighing the risk of Rand being in play in this confrontation versus the gain of turning Rand to the Shadow and never having to fight him again, the Dark One seems to be playing to the big picture.

 

Thats why I said, right from the beginning, that if we get new information, then I would have to reassess.

 

Fair enough, though i think you are ignoring information when you conclude the Dark One to be stupid for his actions--the very fact that he is imploying those actions is information, and in terms of comparatively judging the Dark One's intentions i think his own actions are more important that belief or prophecy of the human enemy.

 

If that is the only way to "end" him, as you say, then it does make sense.  Which I've said all along.  However, since Ishamael did eventually try to kill him, using the True Power which requires the Dark One's specific approval, it seems the Dark One thinks there is a way to win without turning Rand.  In which case, he's an idiot to leave Rand alive.

 

No, it doesn't. It's not one or the other. Ishamael and the Dark OIne were weighing the risks of leaving Rand alive and fighting them in this turning versus the gain of turning him to the shadow and never having to face him again. At times where the risks of loss in leaving Rand alive have exceeded the gain, they've tried to kill him. Victory in this turning with the knowledge that it would mean facing him again later.

 

Sammael was neither philosopher nor theologian, yet Ishamael had been both, and he claimed to have divined secrets hidden in that fact. Ishamael had died mad true, but even when he was still sane, back when it seemed they would drive Lews Therin to defeat, he claimed this struggle had gone on Since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord and the Creator using Human Surrogates. More he avowed that the Great Lord would almost as soon have turned Lews Therin to the Shadow as have broken free. Maybe Ishamael had been mad even then too, but there had been efforts to turn Lews Therin. And Ishamael said that it had happened in the past, the Creators Champion turned into a creature of the Shadow and raised up as the Shadows Champion.

 

Ishamael was right, insofar that the Dragon soul had fought the shadow many many times in past turnings. But it was only ever Rand's soul that played that role, and the Dragon soul never turned to the Shadow.

 

Ishy was also made Nae Blis so it seems that he has some idea of what the DO wants. You can argue if you want that Ishy was lying to the others. But why and for what purpose?? All his actions seem to point to the fact that he himself believes this and if the DO did not then why would he name him Nae Blis.

 

Ishy was lying only about the part that the Dragon soul had been turned to the Shadow, the rest he was correct about, including the Dark Ones desire to turn Rand's soul to the shadow.

[cloglord]

Actually we know the Dark One can be destroyed. RJ stated that balefire could be used to destroy him, though the amount required would also destroy the world

 

I don't remember RJ saying that the DO would be destroyed, only that the amount of the OP used would detroy the world.  Could you find that RJ quote? I looked, but didn't find it.  Personally, I don't think that Balefire would have any effect on the DO at all, since balefire has the effect of burning threads of the pattern, and the DO is external to the pattern.  As for whether of not the DO could be destroyed, that it a philispohical question for another thread....

 

Firstly, Ishamael is a powerful dreamwalker,...

 

We don't know that, even Rahvin could channel himself into TAR, we have no basis to know if Ishmael had the abilities of a dreamwalker, that is unless you mean that he was very experienced in TAR, in which case I agree entirely.  You are right however that knowledge about wolfbrothers existed in the AoL, Lanfear refers to Perrin as a wildling, she is also familiar with the phenomenon.

 

Actually the concept of the wheel can first be found in Vedic chants of northern India

  And Northern India isn't Asian? :)

 

As for trying to assign motives to the DO, it might be helpful to rememember that while the DO is constrained by Time he is also outside of it. He can afford to be patient, when a loss for him has no stake, merely a continuation of the status quo.  For Ishy the stakes are a bit higher, loss in this turning means the pain of death, with no hope of rebirth through the DO, and thus the loss of knowledge.  He would have to start all over again, from scratch, in another turning, yet ultimately, he believes that he will be reborn to fight the dragon soul again, so he also does not have the same urgency to win TG at any cost that the other forsaken do.  They all operate within the constraints of self preservation, not truely trusting in the wheel to reincarnate them, or fearing the loss of their indiviuality to the personality of their next incarnation.  Ishy simply doesn't have that same fear, he trusts that his role as the Anti-dragon is set, and is confident, that should the Shadow lose, that he will have another shot at it.

 

[lou]

it must concern ish that rand has been so free in the usage of balefire against his fellow forsaken. perhaps ish is not quite so confident this time around.....

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, we've reached the argument cycling part.  All I can say is, it looks to me like your main argument against the Dark One's plan being stupid is that he clearly would have not done it if it was stupid.  Therefore, it must not be stupid, since he did it ... a bit of a circular argument there ... but our underlying assumptions aren't going to be reconciled, so ... -meh-.

[Cybertrolloc]

Actually we know the Dark One can be destroyed. RJ stated that balefire could be used to destroy him, though the amount required would also destroy the world

 

I don't remember RJ saying that the DO would be destroyed, only that the amount of the OP used would detroy the world.

Question of the week.

[TowerOfRavens]

In this series there has been no mention of any other souls fighting the DO as these books are centered on these three ages. Hearid Fel points out that time is circular. There is no knowledge of the DO, then he is freed, then he is sealed. The he breaks free and then he is sealed away for good. Then there is no knowledge of the DO etc.

 

In this age the Dragon is the only champion, but what about the countless ages that came before.

 

Also once a champion has been turned. How would he free himself and go back to the light. Surely the DO would have his soul for eternity. So it is unlikely that the Dragon had been turned by the DO as Ishy said. Even I worked that one out. But what if the other forsaken had once been Champions of the light and had been turned. Spun out again and again for the DO.

 

Maybe that is why the DO wants Rand's soul.

 

Also there is no mention of Male Dreamwalkers unless they are Wolf Brothers. So is Ishy a Wolf Brother? I agree though that in TAR he would have come across wolves and concede you have a point there.

 

However Mat is called Son of Battles and Perrin is referred to as the Wolf King. So again perhaps they are Champions of former years reincarnated to seal the bore properly this time. This inferring that there have been more then one Champion.

 

Also as some one has already pointed out Northern India is in Asia. I am assuming you are American. In America Asian denotes people of Chinese etc backgrounds. While Asian in the UK generally denotes people of Indian etc backgrounds. Obviously Asian should include all these backgrounds, but I understand your mistake.