Sick of Women's attitudes in WoT

[Groningen]

One thing i always wondered about is this: Egwene is pissed of about the 50 or so aes sedai that have been captured by the black tower and taken as warders/slaves. But an important part is forgotten. The aes sedai where baically assasins. Send to kill all who's only crime was that they have been born. Do not get me wrong i think the punishment is not the right one but they should be punished severely. Why does she forget that? Becouse they are aes sedai and therefor het daughters?

Spoiled brat...

[Ilyena]

I think it's just the shock that the Ashaman would bond Aes Sedai... Then again, she had no idea they were being sent to gentle all of the channelers. She assumed thatthey were a negotiation party, and that's why she was pissed. Then Again, mazrim taim (Who i hate) needs to be taken out. The Ashaman are more arrogant and unrespectful to everyone they meet, including rand. How can you say Aes Sedai are bad for trying to stop rand from tearing apart the world, when Ashaman are plotting to kill him, and all Aes Sedai?

[Groningen]

Where does it say that she thought it was a negotiating party? And be honest if she wants to know the truth just ask rand. As for the plans of the blach tower, I do not know them. And i think neither do you. Just speculation and hints but no clear answer. We still do not know the plans of Taim and the others. So I do not think that is it at all...

[Kadere]

Rand's in hiding, and she's got her own problems to worry about. I think reuniting the White Tower out-weighs taking care of the Black Tower at the moment. If she just changed her objective now, all the Aes Sedai would beat her with a stick. And I don't think Rand would tell her anything anway, he's not that open, and he really knows just about nothing of what's going on in the Black Tower.

[dawntreader3]

There is no way to know that the Black Tower is wanting to kill off all the Aes Sedai. And Rand would likely not tell Egwene anything because she has the arrogant attitude of "I am the Amyrlin Seat, Rand is a man who can channel, I don't really care that he was my childhood sweetheart, I am Aes Sedai now and so Rand really SHOULD be under MY...oops...I mean the White Tower's control!" And don't tell me she isn't above manipulating Rand.

 

And no, I don't like Aes Sedai. I would love it if the entire White Tower were broken, Elaida's group and Egwene's...never to be rebuilt. As I said before, every man and woman who can channel ought to be able to do so without the stifling rules and regulations of the White Tower. And the White Tower should have NO say whatsoever about men channeling. Not anymore.

 

I disagree as well that the Aes Sedai have been humbled enough. They still display the most aweful attitudes toward the men! And Rand should be taken down a notch?!!! He's the bloody Dragon Reborn! That would make him practically King of the World for all intents and purposes. The Aes Sedai ought to bow down and worship the dude. Especially since he cleansed Saidin.

 

I also hate the stupid Novice/Apprentice/Sister levels of becoming Aes Sedai. The whole "Discipline...Novice's in White Shifts, getting naked and being birched" etc. etc. etc. It's total and utter crap. It's very sado-masochistic and I honestly don't know why RJ puts it in. And it gets entirely wayyyyy too old.

 

The only normal seeming women channelers are the Kin.

 

(Even the Aiel Wise Women have weird "Lets all get naked and beat each other up"...or "Discipline! Discipline I say! Let's be like the White Tower and switch our apprentice girls on a regular basis! Or torture them slightly with the One Power until they "know their place" and submit! Submit submit submit!")

 

Of course I know that the Asha'man are harsh with their training as well, but they are being trained as soldiers and rightly so. They need to be able to defend themselves from the Aes Sedai witches who either hate them, or view them with a sort of condescending "awww...isn't he cute? Let me bond him as a Warder...."

 

Serves the bloody Aes Sedai right who got bonded by Asha'man.

 

No...it's high time the Aes Sedai's White Tower was broken for all time. Let any woman who can channel do so without the dictatorship of Elaida or Egwene.

[Inara]

dawntreader, i think you might have been born a century or two too late!

 

the ability to wield the power give you alot of power over people. the tiniest sister could manhandle the largest man if she wanted to. however, it is OFTEN said that the power is seductive and alot of discipline is required to stop people from drawing too much in and destroying themselves.

 

initially, the kind of training the novices was designed to harden girls relatively quickly to fight etc after the breaking. they are a traditional lot. it has been many generations (even aes sedai generations) since this happened, and a group this long in power comes to take it for granted. like a monarchy and all the noble who come with that lot. you adopt a way of thinking....

 

their ajahs, especially the red were formed after the breaking, specifically to hunt down any men who were destroying themselves and everyone else with their madness, naturally this kind of occupation will attract women who dont like men very much to the point where this is what they are known for.

 

power will always instill a kind of arrogance, look at what sadin has done to farmboys in a matter of months.

 

egwene is not stupid, neither is she heartless, rand is no longer her childhood sweetheart, (the only character who has canged more than rand is fain!) she wont hesitate to use him, and his status and power to further what she believes to be the best way to defeat the DO. that is what it is all about, that is all most of them ever think about. only the evil or stupid ones think like you so hastly accuse them. elaida is the ONLY female character who acts like this, and even she has her reasons.

 

your vehemance is disturbing, you should read magician...all the female characters (that i can recall) are meek and subservient.

this series is obviously not to your taste

[Kadere]

So basically Dawntrader it's not cool to have a dictatorship of women, but if Rand gets to be a dictator it's all ok?

 

It's like you're totally into the freedom of every individual to have the right to channel unless they happen to be a woman.

 

I think you're forgetting the fact that ever since the Breaking of the World every man who had the ability to channel went completely insane and killed everyone. They leveled cities in their sleep. There was no control, Saidin was tainted, period. And it was the MENS fault for it being tainted. The women weren't going to just sit around and let men channel freely, that would get EVERYONE killed. Sure they were terrified of stilling the Dragon, but it was necassery to still every male channeler because otherwise the guy would start to kill people. They have no reason to trust ANY of the male channelers up through CoT, they don't even know the taint is gone until Narishma shows up. So up until then every male channler is a time-bomb waiting to go mad and kill everybody.

 

And the Ash'amen aren't trained as soliders to battle the Aes Sedai, they are trained that way to battle the DO and his menions.

 

These people are terrified of the taint and the possiblity of this huge army going mad, that's why they want the control, that's why they NEED the control. Now of course they know the taint is gone, and they're even bonding to Ash'amen willingly. We're seeing a whole knew way of thinking in this world. Equality will start moving forward, once all the dreadlord Ash'amen are killed off along with the Blach Ajha Sisters.

[rd2000]

Hey, let's not all pile on the poor guy. I agree that most Aes Sedai are over the top, but it's RJ's world, not mine. I am just "visiting"

 

I believe Nynaeve has been VERY humble lately (KOD)

As part of Rand's personal party, she seemed pretty humble and pretty subservient to Rand (at least it seemed that way to me)

 

It seems to me that Cadsuane is the ONLY Aes Sedai that is not intimidated by the Ashamen and in a battle would make a very effective leader for them. Taim and Logain are the only ones we have seen thus far with any leadership skills.

[Groningen]

Just a thought. Do the aes sedai know the taint is gone from the male half of the sourde? Yes some know in the rebels camp. But the Aes sedai in the tower, Do they know? It might explain their hate for the black tower still...

[Kadere]

I don't believe they do. It's been a while since I've read it, but I don't think any more than a few know.

[dawntreader3]

Wow. I didn't realize I was being vehement (Sp?). If so, I aopologise. I actually do like this series. I am just angered by many of the women (the current so called Aes Sedai)'s attitudes toward men and Rand in particular.

 

I have no problem with women channeling. I have never had a problem with that. I HAVE had a problem with the White Tower and it's confining, stifling, and uber controlling ways.

 

I don't understand though why some of you cannot see that Needing to make sure Rand makes it to face the Dark One, is not sufficient reason to try to either manipulate or control Rand. Egwene doesn't have that right.

 

As I've said before as well, Rand is a Messiah-like figure. If he WERE a dictator he would be within his rights. The same could be said if the prohpecies concerning the Dragon Reborn were refering to a woman. So yes, it IS ok if Rand acts unilaterally. It IS ok if he conquers...he is meant to do so.

 

And while I agree that Rand has changed he still has not become arrogant. He does not look down upon women, he doesn't even look down on Aes Sedai. But he will not be controlled by them. That is admirable.

 

Cadsuane is an Aes Sedai that I have found I can respect. But the vast majority of them are not like her.

 

Now, if the White Tower and the Black Tower could be joined together and men and women channelers could be as the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends, then I think I would be happy with that. All is equal. But otherwise? I say break the tower forever.

(And even if the Towers united, they would need to get rid of the Sado-Masochistic crap from their training.)

[Red States Rule!]

Dawn, there is proof that the Black Tower is trying to kill the women.

 

It just came in on our orders.

[Kadere]

The need to make sure Rand made it to battle the Dark One was considered resonable because he may go insane long before he battles the DO. I like Rand a lot, and I certainly don't want to see him become the WT b!tch, but there was a fear that he was not safe. Every man who could channel was a danger up until recently, and to let a channeling male do what ever he wanted was risking the lives of everyone in Randland.

 

As for seeing the BT and WT combine, I think that's what RJ as going for. I think we're seeing the creation of the Aes Sedai of the AoL. RJ has made it clear that the only way to do anything major is for both female and male channelers to work together. Rand and Egwene will eventually come to some kind of an agreement which allows the Aes Sedai and Ash'amen to work together against the DO.

 

But I still have to disagree that Rand has the right to be the all powerful dictator. Yes he's their messiah, yes he has to join the world together, but he has no right to overcome everyone's free will and force them to join him.

[Aminalcrakers]

I agree with the points below:

-yes women in the books degrade men when men are not around,

-yes the tower practices of whipping are kinda creepy

-yes Nyn can be annoying

 

However! Letting channelers run amock is about the worst idea ever! The WT may not be amazing, but its a heck of alot better than just letting them run rampant. I dunno about you, but letting Galina make her own descisions all the time sounds about the worst idea EVER to me.

 

Secondly, yes they say horible things, but being completely candid, most women say that stuff. Honestly, I know when I am with my girlfriends we joke CONSTANTLY about how dumb men are and they only think with the wrong head ect.

BUT WE NEVER MEAN IT TRULY!

 

And how many women do you know that do not whisper in their husbands ear and expect them to obey,

Example one: Teddy and Eleanor Roosevelt.

 

the point is, yes, these women are a bit over the top, but they are only a bit more unrealistic than real life women. Women know that as soon as we get into power we are automatically going to be labeled a "female dog" whether we like it or not.

 

Women in our society might have a bit more respect than WoT women because for the past oh thousands of years, they had no rights compared to what men had.

 

Im sorry, but the WoT women are not horrible, they are regular women who finally have some semblance of real power, and as for Nyn Eggy and Elayne:

 

Nyn and Eggy are gonna need some time to get used to having power, and in my opinion they are doing beautifully, eggy needed to be independant otherwise she would have been controlled by sitters, and Nyn, even back in Emonds Field had to be overly bossy because she was young and therefore no one wanted to listen to her.

 

Elayne has been raised to know she is royalty and as such people should listen to her. And the whole whiny thing, well men lets face it she is PREGNANT! of course she is WHINY! She is in pain a good deal of the time, she always feels sick to her stomach and EVERYONE, EVERYONE especially Birgitte are treating her like she is a two year old.

 

In closing, yes the women are annoying, but they have reason to be basically because if they aren't like that, NO ONE WILL lISTEN TO ThEM, and as a side note, Eggy KNOWS Rand, she knows that he will be sacrificing himself waaaay more than he should, she is just tryin to make sure he gets to TG ALIVE.

 

and no i don't hate men:) its just fun to talk about the silly things they do:)

[Kadere]

*cough* Elinor was married to Franklin, not Teddy *cough*

[Aminalcrakers]

::points at self:: idiot! hey i was tired, and on a bit of rampage, sorry bout the vehemence, also I am pretty ashamed, as Eleanor is pretty much one of my favorite women of all time, then again I mostly like Teddy alot too, so what it comes down to is....

Its three am and I was being dumb today. Sorry for the confusion...but she still did it, yes.

[Moric]

Heh... Since I don't really know that much about contemporary american history: I like Animalcrakers last two posts.

 

And I'd like to add two things:

 

First: the men of the WoT isn't much better. At all. Their views of women is quite similiar to the women's (womens'? how do you put the S in the end of a word with that kind of plural form?) anyway: especially the idea that the opposite sex gossips and that they haven't even a whole brain between them.

 

Second: Um... And guys... Just like women talk about men (according to Animalcrakers at least ): come on... We're not exactly fair or nice all the time we talk about women. With that in mind I have NO doubt about the truth of Animalcrakers statement. ;)

I think I had a point there. But it evaporated when I had a call from the midwives that take care of my "woman" (they keep calling her that, and oddly speak as both she and _I_ were pregnant)... Got a little confused...

 

Moric of the Singing Wind sept of the Miagoma aiel