Sick of Women's attitudes in WoT

[dawntreader3]

Is there anyone else that believes the women in the Wheel of Time series have progresively become more and more arrogant and condescending to the men?

 

I particularly have become angered with Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene.

 

(I HATE Aes Sedai).

 

They seem to believe men are very much an inferior sex. I wonder if Jordan intended it to be this way? A sort of gender reversal compared to our world?

 

In WoT the women all seem to think that men cannot think, that they always gossip, that all they think of is war and it is better for women to rule so that there can be peace.

 

The Aes Sedai are particularly disgusting with the way they treat their Warders. I am eternally hopeful that at some point Rand and the others (Lan in particular) will get not only the last word when it comes to Aes Sedai, but that the men will have the last laugh.

 

I cannot say how happy I was when the Asha'man battled the Aes Sedai and won. And took Aes Sedai prisoner! Woohoo!

 

Yet it is the main female characters whom I have the most problem with. Nynaeve is an arrogant little "B" woman who should be humbled by the fact that she can wield Saidar above the abilities of others. But no. She treats her own husband as though he were a submissive. (Is it just me or are there hints of BDSM in WoT? With a LOT of the characters acting like they believe in and practice "Female Superiority".)

 

I loved the first few books but these later ones have a little too much "Men need to be kept in their proper place" about them.

 

(To be fair I was JUST as sickened by Elayne's treatment of Birgitte in Winter's Heart. I wished...no I would have LOVED it had Birgitte told Elayne where she could go and stick it. )

 

Of course, Elayne is going to be a Queen, and there is deference due to one of such station. But still, Elayne more than once deserved to have Birgitte smack her upside her head. (Birgitte is NOT one of Elayne's subjects and indeed I would think that Birgitte would not just throw a fit or "give Elayne a talking to later" but would NEED to publicly put her in her place. After all, Birgitte is no commoner. And Every Female main character, and not just the Aes Sedai need to be made to have a new understanding of their Warder/Aes Sedai relationship. One that is entirely much more equal.

 

I also think that Jordan makes the women a little petty. Too much so, especially with each other.

 

Again...I absolutely long for the day when Rand, Perrin, Mat, Birgitte, all the Asha'man, and most especially Lan (Who I hate to say it seems "gentled even though he cannot channel" by Nynaeve) breaks free of the choking, stifling, disgusting power mad grip that Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve and the rest of the Aes Sedai have on them.

 

One last thing I need to rant about.

 

Egwene! I am DISGUSTED with her treatment of the Kinswomen, and of the Aiel Wise Women. How DARE she think that the Kin need to be brought under the control of the White Tower? Who gave her that authority? Did the Kin? Why should they? Why should the bend the knee or knuckle their forheads of cower in awe of Aes Sedai Weaves? I wold love it if Rand put a stop to that foolishness as well.

[Kadere]

Actually RJ does want it to be a flip of our own world. He read a book a long time ago where a woman wasn't allowed to go to this magic school because she was a woman, and RJ thought it would be interesting to have world just the oppisite of that. I mean if you think about it, in WoT it's Lews Therin who plucks the apple from the Tree of Knowledge and pays for it.

 

As for my feelings of whether or not the women in WoT are b!tches, just look to my posts on the "Faile" thread.

[loki redfern]

they want to watch the kin because of the "daughters of the night incident" and egwene want it more to unifie female channelers and some other stuff i can't remember but she intends to keep it more or less separte.

 

nynaeve pay the price for dominating in public for that she has to be subseviant to lan when in private so its kind of equal.

 

we men are rather stuipid and woolheaded most of the time but RJ shows the women are fallible to and the women thinking they are better is because they live in a society where women can be the most powerful because up to now and for the last several millenia they have been the only ones able o channel safly but i do believe that this pride is an precurser to an iminent fall

[dawntreader3]

I agree with Loki Redfern a bit about perhaps the women seeming to be in control and assuming the worst of men etc. because of the breaking of the world and because since then they have had power.

 

However it is my fervent hope that RJ does indeed intend to bring about a HUGE downfall of the Aes Sedai and most importantly humble Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve at the hands of Lan, Rand, Perrin and Mat.

 

I must say I disagree with the notion that it is equal for Nynaeve to be dominant in public and Lan to be dominant in private. If you cannot be equal in public, then you won't be in private either. And as for it being an equal trade-off, well nynaeve doesn't seem to have any qualms about publicly humiliating her Warder...at least humiliating him in front of other Aes Sedai. Perhaps if Lan were to whip her well in private...give her the spanking of her life in private, (Which she both needs and deserves) her public humiliation of him might be considered equal in terms of hurt the "loving" spouses could inflict on one another.

[loki redfern]

i meant it's actually writn in the books and you see an example of her having to listen to lan.

[Leafburner]

It's a fantasy world. A world where women are superior to men, where they have more power, where their words are considered authoritive, where they can get away with being rude, abnoxious, narrow-minded and petty. A world where men bite their tongues rather than upset a woman. A world where women have power.

 

A world of pure fantasy.

 

But even in this world of purest fantasy, where women are in control and have ultimate authority, who is going to save the day?

 

A man.

[dalic]

i am sick of the attitudes of women in wot for the simplest reason. Rand is the bloody Dragon Reborn who will save the world with his blood at Shayol Ghul. He's known as possibly the strongest taveren ever. And the Aes Sedai--even Egwene his village sweetheart of years gone by--all act like he is a lion cub that must be leashed and kept till TG. Suian, Elayne, and Verin are the three to show any real sense in the matter. They understood that just maybe Rand fulfilling the prophecies and winning TG may not rely on their actions concerning Rand but on what the Wheel and maybe even the Creator had planned for the Dragon Reborn.

 

As for wot being our world reversed, I am a man balls to bones and I have never made the mistake of underestimating a woman for being a woman. The women I've known could burn a path through hell to accomplish a goal.

[Wolfsbane]

Just to make a mention..

 

Nyn and Lan were married in Athien Miere custom I believe, and under that rule, Nynaeve can be as dominant as she wants in public- but as soon as the two of them slip under the covers.. It's Lan's domain. And considering he had Moiraine before this leading him around, no matter how humiliating Nyn can be- it won't match having to be at Moiraine's beck and call.

Of course the women will be humbled.

Duh.

 

But here's a run-down:

 

Faile- I have no personal problem really, everything's to serve a purpose and she has the utmost respect for Perrin.. She's a better wife than most, especially when she used the "Saldaen farmgirl" routine or busts out the sa'sara.. word..

 

Elayne- pregnant whinging annoyance. She has her throne, now give her some Haagen Daaz and get the kids out of her and we're back to her being hot and not moody.

 

Nyn- a general whining, pissed off cow.. until she got Lan to hoist the Golden Crane from World's End all the way to Tarwin's Gap. That was good. It was almost worth putting up with Nyn for 11 books.

 

Egwene- ugh. the epitimy of annoyance since tEotW, but she just hasn't got a guy to straighten her out.. Gawyn? Galad? Both? Heck, if they straighten her out, rock on.

 

Avi- tough love. Avi's hot. Rock that.

 

Cadsuane- seniority. She's taken down more False Dragons than anyone, and she knows how Rand works.. Let's admit it guys, Rand & Perrin are stubborn as hell- Mat would be stubborn, but Tuon is too manipulating to let him get like that.

 

Tuon- she's a freaking future Empress. And Mat scares her now, s'all good.

 

Min- she's watching Rand go nuts and seeing how he's gonna die. She gets sympathy points. Nexxxxxxxxt.

 

Berelain- I actually didn't see a reason for adding her on here, she's actually the perfect example of attracting a woman.. Don't give her the attention she's used to, that she wants, and she'll hang around after you even when you're married and have kids on the way. And she blew off Mat, WoT's mack truck, and chose Perrin- so, Berelain, you get the respect even tho you're like a Saldaen farmgirl in heat (to put it nicely)

 

THE END!!

 

Wolfs

[rd2000]

In this world, women don't have much respect for men. Just listen in on a group talking about men, when no men are around. The only difference is that in this world, men have the majority of power, and in Randland, women have a majority of the power.

[Guest TigerToe]

at the smallest levels arent there Womens Circles and the Guy club "council?"

 

Council & Circle...they guys make decisions and the women make sure they make the right ones..

 

It seems mostly a pretty fair balance with the leadership of countrys kings and/or queens..but i still get the feeling that their are More kings (sole soverign men) than women.

 

Both sides complain about the others foolishness/flaws, this is common in both worlds.

 

RJ does go heavy with all the girl-power stuff...everyone has their quirks if sometimes he feels like wearing a little makeup and a CONICAL LADYS CAP for ummm inspiration?!....umm....errr..... he is by far the best writer to write CONAN since Robert E Howard.

[Inara]

i think people just need to get over this whole winge about the women.

the main women characters are either from one tiny village where there have been a string of powerful wisdoms (hence elevating the sexes to equal- even slightly matriarchal) or the women are nobly born and/or have risen to power in their lifetimes (nobles, aes sedai) and as such treat everyone like dirt.

note min, the most 'normal' woman in the series is neither.

 

ive found it very amusing that the men use the same derogatory proverbs about women, as the women about men, my special fav is the one about men teaching cats curiosity, but cats keeping sense to themselves.

 

you know who's attitude i'm over....

Rands rubbish about duty and madness...blah blah blah, it was great in tgh, even tdr...but still!??!?!?!?!

 

oh, and dawntreader needs to chill

[Luckers]

I actually think RJ is very clever and realistic in portraying an inevitable skewing of gender in a world were there is female aes sedai, but no male equivelent. You will notice that in Aiel society, where there is something of a more even balance between the sexes, many of the posturing and arrogant dismissals of men that are made by the wetland women arn't present.

 

I think it was a very intellegent bow to what likely would have occured in gender construction in such a society as the wetlands.

[dawntreader3]

Ok, I have to agree that the Aiel women do not seem to have the utter contempt for men that the wetland women do.

 

And I also have to agree that Rand's crap about duty and madness has gotten very old. I think it would be very nice if Rand actually lives through TG...or even if he is killed, somehow lives again. (And not through the tired cliche of having him "re-born" thousands of years later as yet another Dragon Reborn!) I don't think Rand's life HAS to be a mirror of Lews Therin's.

 

You know what chick I have really dug out of this whole series? Lanfear. Not only is she hot. She is very very hot. AND even though evil, she still seems to have had a touch of respect for her adversary.

 

But one of the other posters on here was right. The BEST woman in the entire series is Berelain. (Sp) the chick that digs Perrin. I think she is twice the woman Faile is...albeit conniving and manipulative. But hey...she uses her bodily charms to do it and makes the experience of being manipulated pleasant! Faile is just B*tchy.

 

But nope, still can't say it's all good until Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve are humbled completely before Rand. (Oh...and the whole of Aes Sedai sisterhood as well.)

[Guest Egwene]

:lol: sorry guys... I can't take this very seriously!! The men are just as ignorant in their behaviour towards the women as the other way round.

 

Rand (farmboy) versus Moiraine (stateswoman for years, in a position of power and influence). Where was his respect for her even in the beginning??? Sometimes the way he talked to her... suprised he didn't get accidentely balefired.

 

Mat (jester) has been up to no good since he was in nappies, dodging responsibilities as much as possible and being as flippant in his speech as it is possible to be without falling over.. you expect people that have known him all his life to suddenly treat him with a huge amount of respect? When he doesn't actually bother to first shown that he has changed by giving respect???

 

Perrin... strangely, overall he gets a lot more respect from the females... maybe because he overall also gives more of it?!

 

Lan, apart from being chucked into the pond (and retaliating) his relationship with Moiraine is after all one of employee towards employer. And after all the years together they have the easy relationship of two people bound by a common goal. The emphasis changed when Nyn turns up because Moiraine has to question Lan's loyalty (effectivness) because of his involvement with Nyn.

 

Lan v Nyn... they seem to be adjusting to each other just fine. Lan seems to prefer his woman to be a fighting lioness rather than one using her feminine charms (a la Berelain). Looking at comments here and elsewhere most male uses seem to be basing their likes and dislikes a great deal on physical attributes rather than achievement.

 

Gawyn and Egwene... Not much of a relationship really as they have hardly spent a great deal of time together. However, Egwene has steadily grown into a mature leader and bringing up mistakes she made as a trainee really don't have any bearing on who she is now. Unlike some she seems to learn from her mistakes. Her own PoV is that the Wise Ones will do just fine in any debate with the tower. And the Kin... the phrase is being affiliated to the tower. Organisations are affiliated to each other because it brings mutual benefit. I think you'll find the Kin balefiring anyone that might try to send them back to Coventry!!

 

The male forsaken.... as good or bad as the female ones...

 

various other characters.. male, female.... they are as bad as each other in the books. If you don't believe it.... read the other half when you get a chance

 

 

Jokes aside, their are far more female characters in the books, which is why it sometimes feels imbalanced towards the female half of the population. When you actually objectively compare like for like you will find it is quite balanced in attitudes. I think I read a thread on Wotmania once about this and they actually concluded that Wot is just slightly in favour of men when you look at power distribution, influence etc.

 

... anyway.. it does make me laugh when you guys go on about how the Aes Sedai are this and that, but it's apparently totally alright for the men to be rude, secretive, flippant, arrogant etc. etc.... :lol:

[dawntreader3]

Four words here:

 

Empress of the Seanchan.

 

Ok...the power distribution of Men vs. women in WoT is heavily in favour of women. The Seanchan have the greatest empire ever and it is ruled primarily by women. And, their highest ruler IS a woman.

 

The same could be said for Andor, Ebou Dar...etc. What about the Seafolk? They too are run by women.

 

The power balance is a bit gender skewed in favour of women I would say.

 

I am male, but my reasoning and hatred of the Aes Sedai along with my distaste for the attitudes of Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve have absolutely nothing to do with physical attributes.

 

Indeed, if the characters were real, I would be totally down for going after Egwene, Aviendha, Min, Elayne, Berelain, and Tylin.

 

BUT! Their natures, their personalities and their just plan BAD attitudes concerning men would put me off. They DO put me off just by reading about them.

 

(Which by the way...in my opinion every woman or man who can channel ought to be able to do so without the White Tower, or the Seanchan trying to interfere with their weird rules and regulations.

 

Oh! That there was a group of women who took to liking the Asha'man and together the men and women alike, channelers all would face down and defeat those corrupt and just flat out annoying peoples and organizations. The White Tower with their Aes Sedai may not enslave women as Damane the way the Seanchan do...but I think their manipulation and need to COTNTROL those who channel all come from the same spirit.

 

And as for the men being just as bad as the girls in their atitudes...I think not.

 

Just because one is Aes Sedai doesn't mean you are all powerful or all knowing and Rand, even as a boy was in need of a lot of answers. And! Talking back to Moiraine is becoming of someone who doesn't like to be ordered about. In fact If I lived in that world I would refuse to do ANYTHING an Aes Sedai either asked or ordered me to do unless I felt there was merit to the request or order. Just because the women think Rand is wool headed doesn't make it so. In fact I feel he is one of the smartest of the characters. I think Mat is quite smart as well (In fact I like Mat more than Rand in some ways, less in others.) Perrin is not quite so smart. He was until Faile put him on a leash and made him her damane.

 

The men do not exhibit the arrogance that Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve do. (Except for perhaps Mazrim Taim.)

[Red States Rule!]

(see other post in general discussion labeled for all Aes Sedai and you'll get my opinion)....

 

AVADA KEDAVRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TaeaDawn]

Alright, I had to chime in on this one. Sorry to encourage the discussion....

 

Anyway.. I have been a little concerned by the comments made often by the woman in regards to men and their abilities. I am as concerned about the fact that the men make the same comments back. While there does seem to be more frequency in the women commenting on a man's incompetence to do something, I don't think the writing indicates that the women feel their comments are any more accurate than the men when they make them though.

 

And let's be honest. These are characters.

 

What would this story be like if Nynaeve was a sweet young woman? She'd be back in Emond's Field, still waiting for the Men's council to decide who should go after their boys.

 

If Egwene we're so sure of herself? Back at Emond's Field, training to be a wisdom.

 

If Rand was trusting and open? He'd be in the White Tower in shackels.

 

If Mat wasn't a sneak? well... we all might be better off without the dagger, but without a pretty interesting storyline.

 

If Perrin weren't stubborn? That axe would have been ditched and I'm thinking he'd be a tinker, or perhaps just gone all wolf, it would be easier that way don't you think?

 

If Lan wasn't so stubborn and stoic? He'd have led someone into the Blight years ago and died a horrible, but mostly unknown and lamented death.

 

Without Morraine's death (because she'd put Rand on edge in the beginning with her Aes Sedainess) we wouldn't have the wonderfully tragic death (as far as most of them are concerned) to deal with.

 

These are NOT people. These are characters. Normal people do NOT make good reading. Honest hard working people with normal flaws and normal points of view doing normal every day things RARELY make good reading. What does are putting these people under strain and watching all their various flaws and faults pop like one of those dolls you squeeze who's eyes bluge out of their face.

 

I might not like a Nynaeve-type person in real life, but as a character she makes great reading :P

 

Just my thoughts.

[Kadere]

I'll agree with you TaeaDawn. These books would certainly be boring if everyone trusted and respected everyone else, and it certainly wouldn't be very compelling.

 

But I have to say that these character are suppose to seem like real people. If they didn't seem like real people, they again wouldn't be very compelling. There are real people who have the same faults as these characters, we just simply don't care. I'm not saying these characters are real (I'm not crazy....I think) but they should appear to be real, and RJ does a good job making them appear so.

[TaeaDawn]

I agree with you Kadere! I think the characaters are realistic. Their flaws are genuine ones. What I was saying in a round about way is when you take a regular flaw and put them in extraordinary conditions.... well things happen. People go crazy and we all love to see what they'll do next.

 

:P

[Ilyena]

I do have to say Im definatly against all of treader's "I hate Aes Sedai" stuff. i understand if you don't like them, but saying that they haven't been humiliated enough already is... well... kinda harsh. 51 sisters have been captured, many more killed, the black ajah is now in the open, while the others are trying to deal with a split tower, an ignornat leader (Elaida) a captured leader (Egwene), having men channel around them, no longer having the respect they were used to for the 3 thousand years prior, not to metion dealing with the Seanchan, Forsaken, and approaching TG.

They've been served a massive heap of humiliation, and sadly much has been because of elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve, the very sisters you ripped apart for being to arogant. Nynaeve has been stopped in her tracks by Alyse and Cadsuane, Elayne's being gaurded 24-7 by Dylin, Birgitte, the guardswoman, etc, And Egwene has to deal with being treated overly harsh in novice white, AGAIN.

If anything Rand Al'thor should taken down a notch or two more by Cadsuane. He's freaking out about the duty thing, and threatening to hang his allies. I mean, lets not forget who killed his own ashaman while fighting the Seanchan?

The woman in WoT are treated with more respect than our world, but that is because of their power. The balance has now been tipped with Taim's Ashaman (they really are taim's, not rand's) and mat's new found arrogance toward every woman.

to summarize..... WHAT ABOUT THE MEN :?:

[dawntreader3]

Ok, I do agree that these are characters and not real people. I also agree that it is great watching what they will do next when put under strain.

 

BUT! as characters, and as believable people (I find them quite believable, I have no problems with believability)I still want Rand to humble the White Tower and Egwene especially.

 

I would like it if Rand set Elayne straight...or if Aviendha or Min set Elayne straight. Elayne's cursed "Aes Sedainess" just makes her as insufferable as Egwene. And Nynaeve? Uggghhhhhh.....RJ could kill her off for all I care. It would be doing the WoT series a huge favour in getting rid of the MOST annoying character in the entire series. Let Lan mourn her...I would not.

 

But I actually would much rather just see those three women characters humbled. Maybe THEY should be caught by the Seanchan and have their necks stuck in a collar. Perhaps after some time serving the Empire as damane they would not be so haughty.

 

(This should especially be true of Egwene. Thinking that the White Tower is not to be touched by Rand...Rand is sort of a Messiah figure here. He should bloody well be able to tell anyone, anywhere what to do and they should obey him. That includes bloody Aes Sedai. All of them! He should be able to dissolve national rules, dissolve organizations such as the White Tower etc.)

[Kadere]

Well, I figure when Rand dies for all of them, they'll be a little humbled. I mean they're certainly not THAT cruel.

[dawntreader3]

I disagree. I think the Aes Sedai are that cruel. I think that they see Rand as a necessary evil. Someone who will die for them sure. But better him and not them right?

 

The only ones who would mourn him would be Min, Aviendha, Elayne and maybe Egwene. But that's just cause three of them love him, and the other grew up with him.

 

But maybe Rand WILL die...and Min will help bring him back (As per a conversation in Winter's Heart). That would be cool. I could dig that. Out of all Rand's loves I think Min shows her love the most. And therefore the most appropriate to help bring Rand back to life if that is the direction RJ takes with the last book. I think Min is much more appropriate for that than Elayne or Aviendha.

[TaeaDawn]

I disagree. I think the Aes Sedai are that cruel. I think that they see Rand as a necessary evil. Someone who will die for them sure. But better him and not them right?

 

 

Have you ever met a politician that didn't look at a soldier as someone who was simply supposed to die where they told them to? Cruel doesn't play into it. How many people mourn the masses that die every day? I don't know anyone who does. We mourn the people we love and know.

 

Honestly, if we lived in this world, we might mourn for the death of the Dragon Reborn but no body, except those that knew him well, would mourn for Rand 'al Thor. He's not important enough to. The Dragon Reborn, if he dies to save mankind, would be someone worth mourning.

[Nygma]

There is clearly a more matriarchal influence on the mainland.

 

Leaving aside the Aes Sedai and the wonder girls, consider custom all over Randland:

 

• The Aiel Wise Ones continually meddle with the clan chiefs, who would never think of doing the same in return.
  The Emond's Field Women's Circle continually meddles with the Village Council; it's taboo for the men to meddle with the women.
  Andor has only queens.
  The Seafolk are ruled by the Wavemistresses, who only have to take commands from the swordmasters in time of war.
  Far Madding, Arafel are places where men are a step up from servants.

 

Interestingly enough, the one place where there seems to be complete equality between men and women is Seanchan. I don't think there's a single case of a Seanchan man or woman thinking that the opposite gender is a bunch of lunkheads. There have been Seanchan Emperors, and the first one in charge of the Return was High Lord Turak over Suroth. Except for the mandatory case of sul'dam and damane, men and women can both hold high places of command.