The Role of Illian in AMoL

[Cybertrolloc]

To join the pile on Cloglord: Aludra's making cannon and equipment for them can happen anywhere, the only problems are monetary and political. (If not, how's she getting the material on the run in Altara anyway--besides the power of plot?)

 

Saltpeter is pretty much as common as dirt. You can rinse a midden heap for it, though some special prep helps the process a great deal. Synonyms would be potash or nitre (I'm pretty sure we get occasional mentions of those). Or is the only farming that's done in Randland done in Illian? ;)

 

Metal in bulk for cannon casting and so on is probably going to be available in a lot more places than either Illian or Caemlyn. I'm pretty sure we've seen smiths working pretty much everywhere too (casting metal is different but requires a lot of the same feed stocks).

 

 

[Majsju]

Just for the sake of it, lets put the first bunch of books aside, and take a look at KOD and AMOL. Keep timing in mind.

 

Verin would first have to travel to Tar Valon. Or rather, probably quite a bit outside at first, so she could get some intelligence on what is going on without being detected by ano of the two sides. Without going too deeply into the different timelines, she might very well find herself standing there watching the battle between Aes Sedai and Seanchan. And while we can safely assume the seanchan will not win the battle and conquer thw White Tower, there will be quite a bunch of things to sort out once the dust settles.

 

But ok, she manages to get in, sneak past everyone and get the horn without getting detected. What to do next, free the king of Illian? Hope that the people of Illian would welcome him back with open arms instead of a knife in the back, while still staying happily loyal to Rand? And hoping that Rand would not get royally pissed and put her in custody of some Asha'man, or something similar that would prevent her from doing whatever it is she must do? Heck, Rand has got to trust someone sometime, right?

And of course, gamble on Mat actually bothering to go there once he eventually hears about it. He did not exactly seem to care one bit about the horn when it lay tucked away in the Tower, so why start now? Mat is the one Verin has spent the least time with, so she doesn't exactly have the slightest inkling about the way he has matured and figured out responsibility.

 

At the same time, Mat is kinda tied up for the next couple of weeks with saving Moiraine. Through the Tower of Ghenjei, which is kinda very much the wrong direction. After that, it's about bloody time he starts heading back to Rand. Rand who certainly does not have time to sit around playing king in Illian for a month, so that is not exactly the direction Mat would feel being the wisest. And even if Mat would see a flash of Rand in Illian, he might not recognize it, since he has never been there. "Oh, random palace I don't recognize, must be Illian!" eh, not likely.

 

And even if verin had been there, getting word to Mat about that is not exactly done easily. The Tower of Ghenjei is not exactly located in the nost populated area in the world. Parts of the Aiel Waste looks crowded compared to it. So they must get moving first. Lets be extremely time optimists, and say that Mat and his scoobies can leave the Tower about two weeks after actually starting travelling there. Which seems extremely generous. It might take as much as another week before they can find someone to bring them credible word about a horn in illian. And then at least another wek just to travel there. All in all, a month. And Mat has not started yet. Of course, Mat being Mat he might want to hook up with the Band agin, which would add even more time. Good thing there no TG or something like that lurking around the corner.

 

Oh, wait, there is one of those. Ah shoot.

 

A lot of running around in a book that is supposed to not only neatly wrap all major things up, but also tell about the greatest battle in 3000 years.

[cloglord]

Saltpeter is pretty much as common as dirt. You can rinse a midden heap for it, though some special prep helps the process a great deal. Synonyms would be potash or nitre (I'm pretty sure we get occasional mentions of those). Or is the only farming that's done in Randland done in Illian?

 

Yes, it can be manufactured nearly any where, but not instantaneously.  The point I was making is that the tanning and shipbuilding industries in Illian would nessecitate a ready stockpile of the material nessecary.  Anything not currently stockpiled could easily reach Illian by it's port.  It is both quick AND convienient, something that no other major ciy can provide in the extent that Illian can. 

 

If it had been at all important to get the horn to Illian, Siuan would have assembled a small army and sent it off the same day Verin brought it to her. Instead she locked it away. Because Mat blew it, not Rand. Instead of the Dragon Reborn parading with the Horn, they have a more than half-dead farmboy with the manners of a drunk goat. The political meaning of it is, not gone, but definitly diminished.

 

But the purpose of the Horn going to Illian might not be political, but merely important from the standpoint of prophecy.  What purpose would it serve to take Mat and the Horn from the safest place in the world for it, from Siuan's POV, and take it into enemy territory, as it would have been then, just to wait around for TG?  The answer is that it would serve no purpose.  The smart thing to do would be to keep both Mat and the Horn safe in TV until it is needed for TG, presumably in Illian, which is exactly what she did.  After she loses Mat, it becomes even less relevant that it move from its relative safety, even if it is destined to go to Illian, why bring it there until she  can arrange for Mat to be there with it?  After she loses the Amrylin seat it goes from being a purposeless endeavor to being an impossible one, as she had then lost access to the horn. 

 

Lets try putting it a little simpler, maybe.

Moiraine, as a highly intelligent and politically skilled person would obviously have made quite a few plans during her 20 year of searching for Rand. Plans based on what she knows, what she suspects, what she can hope for and what she fears, with a good deal of room for adaption when she encounters new information.

 

I do not deny the possibility that Moraine could have made plans in advance.  However, as you point out, she would as a neccesity have allowed room for adaptation.  Her word choice at the moment she first sees the horn does not leave the nessecary room for adaptation.  She says that it "must" go, not that it "should" or "will" or "could."  Unless you are suggesting that Moraine is so full of herself that she believes that her plans are the ONLY possible conclusions to be reached, then she would have been forced to use another word by the her oath against lying. You should agree with me here, but if I were to say that you must agree with me, i'd either be deluded or a liar, that is unless I know something that you don't. :)

 

Just for the sake of it, lets put the first bunch of books aside, and take a look at KOD and AMOL. Keep timing in mind.

 

I would love to adress this, as it was exactly the type of discussion I had hoped to foster.

 

Verin would first have to travel to Tar Valon. Or rather, probably quite a bit outside at first, so she could get some intelligence on what is going on without being detected by ano of the two sides.[/quote

 

No, she would not.  Verin has not aligned herself with either faction.  She traveled for a time with some rebels sisters, but as all those rebel sisters have spent all of their time since that trip in Rand's custody, it is not likely that word of her limited association with the rebels has leaked to either group.  She is neither Red Ajah or Blue, so she has a one-time free pass to enter either camp, and allign herself.  Simply, Verin could travel to the tower, walk in the front door, and let everyone assume that she is there to suport the tower.

 

Without going too deeply into the different timelines, she might very well find herself standing there watching the battle between Aes Sedai and Seanchan. And while we can safely assume the seanchan will not win the battle and conquer thw White Tower, there will be quite a bunch of things to sort out once the dust settles.

 

Possible, but by no means certain.  Even if we assume she shows up right in the middle of the Seanchan attack, an argument could be made that the confusion would actually aid her in retrieving the horn and/or freeing Mattin Stepaneos.

 

What to do next, free the king of Illian? Hope that the people of Illian would welcome him back with open arms instead of a knife in the back, while still staying happily loyal to Rand?

 

Moraine seemed to think that the people of Illian would follow Bal'alzamon if he showed up with the horn, why wouldn't they follow their rightful king if he returned with it?  Did Darlin's rebels balk at following Darlin and Rand after Darlin was named king?  Why would Stepaneos' popularity effect Rand's? 

 

And hoping that Rand would not get royally pissed and put her in custody of some Asha'man, or something similar that would prevent her from doing whatever it is she must do? Heck, Rand has got to trust someone sometime, right?

 

Why would Rand be pissed.  He has demonstrated no interest in personally ruling any of his conquered countries.  He has appointed regents in Carhien and Illian, and it appears he is ready to do the same in Arad Doman if Alsalam can't be found.  Upon Rand's conquest of Illian, his first thoughts are to find Stepaneos, presumably, (as I don't have ACoS w/ me @ the moment,) to reinstate him to his rightful crown.  Further, he has two ready made reasons to trust Stepaneos.  First, his father served as Stepaneos's Second captain in the Companions.  Stepaneos trusted Tam, Tam trusted Stepaneos, seems like a good reason to trust him to me.  Second, Stepaneos was the victim of kidnapping by the white tower.  You might recall tha Rand suffered a similar attempt at the same hands.  A shared experience, tends to bring people together, especially when it is an experience of this type.  If Verin were to rescue the rightful ruler of Illian from Elaida, I would expect that Rand would give Verin a dozen roses and a big fat kiss to boot.

 

And of course, gamble on Mat actually bothering to go there once he eventually hears about it. He did not exactly seem to care one bit about the horn when it lay tucked away in the Tower, so why start now?

 

Two issues here, why Mat would go, and why didn't he care when it was in TV.  First, Mat would go to Illian for all of the aforementioned reasons.  He has comissioned Aldura to make cannons; he is going to help mediate between Rand and Tuon; he hears that the Horn has been brought to Illian.  Any of those might bring him downriver from the Tower of Ghenji.  Secondly, Mat had no inclination to go to TV for the Horn, for several reasons.  He did not know exactly where it was being hidden; he knew it was surrounded by his least favorite people, Aes Sedai; and he had other, more urgent, matters in front of him.  If the horn were moved from his least favorite place in the whole world to the town that is a few days downriver from his location, it makes it a whole lot more likely that Mat would actively pursue this part of his destiny.

 

At the same time, Mat is kinda tied up for the next couple of weeks with saving Moiraine. Through the Tower of Ghenjei, which is kinda very much the wrong direction. After that, it's about bloody time he starts heading back to Rand. Rand who certainly does not have time to sit around playing king in Illian for a month, so that is not exactly the direction Mat would feel being the wisest. And even if Mat would see a flash of Rand in Illian, he might not recognize it, since he has never been there. "Oh, random palace I don't recognize, must be Illian!" eh, not likely.

 

We know absolutely nothing about the order of the events in AMoL.  We know that it would take Mat some time to reach the ToG, I'll even let you have your predicted 2 weeks, but Rand could be tied up in beggar mode for those 2 weeks, and Tuon could be dealing with the WT for those 2 weeks, and Verin could be spending 2 weeks being inscrutable.  Lets try this on for a scenario. 

 

Verin reaches Illian with stepaneos, and toghether they announce the end for the Hunt for the Horn.  Word leaves, with official signatures and seals, to every corner of Randland, by the fastest boats in Illian, including riverboats going north along the same river that Mat is traveling along, and that Rand is near.  Do you think that Rand will decide not to go to Illian to investigate?  How about Mat?  The fastest way for him to get back to civilization, and thus Rand, from your example, would be to travel downriver to Whitebridge.  You might remember that Whitebridge is where Mat and Rand first saw an official proclamation of the Hunt being called.  Where would Mat bet on Rand being if he heard that the horn had just been brought to Illian, and that Stepaneos had returned from the dead?  The answer, Illian.  That would put Rand and Mat in Illian together at around the same time.  Since we know that Tuon thinks that finding the horn is almost as important as finding the Dragon, imagine her suprise when she finds out that her husband, the horn, AND the Dragon are just a short boat trip away?  Don't you think that Mat's presence and promise of safety would be enough to get her to Illian? If Rand's in town, then so is Flinn and Nynaeve.  If Mat is in town, then for sure, Setalle Anan is too.  If Anan is healed, she would be in a really unique position to change Tuon's mind about Aes Sedai wouldn't she?  She what I mean about a perfect storm?  Of course it is all hapenstance and conjecture, but Illian, and the Horn, are the only things that can bring this about in this way. 

 

And even if verin had been there, getting word to Mat about that is not exactly done easily. The Tower of Ghenjei is not exactly located in the nost populated area in the world. Parts of the Aiel Waste looks crowded compared to it. So they must get moving first. Lets be extremely time optimists, and say that Mat and his scoobies can leave the Tower about two weeks after actually starting travelling there. Which seems extremely generous. It might take as much as another week before they can find someone to bring them credible word about a horn in illian.

 

Once again, Whitebridge was a credible place to recieve word about the calling of the Great Hunt for the Horn, it would seem a credible place to find word about its ending.  Domon said that the ToG was a waypoint, and that at the slowest possible speed for a downriver trip, it would only be 10 days to whitebridge.  If it took 2 weeks to get to the tower, 3 days to get the job done, and 1 week to get to Whitebridge, Mat could easily recieve word, and arrive in Illian in under a month.  Which if you read my post about how much time AMoL will cover, it seems pretty safe to say that it will be at least a month before TG really gets underway.

 

Mat being Mat he might want to hook up with the Band agin, which would add even more time.

 

Which half?  The half that's hanging out in southern Andor just upriver from Illian, or the half that's in Northern Altara, just upriver from Illian?  Too bad Mat isn't traveling in the company of an Illianer who owns a fleet of river ships, oh wait he is.  Too bad he doesn't know an Ebou Dari fisherman with a fleet of boats in Illian either, oh wait he knows one of those too. 

 

A lot of running around in a book that is supposed to not only neatly wrap all major things up, but also tell about the greatest battle in 3000 years.

 

Not a lot of running, a trip upriver, and then down for Mat.  A trip by gateway to the tower, and then to Illian for Verin.  A trip by gateway for Rand.  One short boat, (or raken) trip by Tuon.  A boat trip, or two for Doman, a boat trip each for each half of the Band. A short boat trip for  Aldura and Anan.  None of these pieces of the puzzle have far to go, and they all have a reason that they could end up in Illian.

 

To quote Nynaeve, "I feel a storm coming."

[Majsju]

What purpose would it serve to take Mat and the Horn from the safest place in the world for it, from Siuan's POV, and take it into enemy territory, as it would have been then

 

Siuan did not have a clue that Sammael ruled Illian at this point.

If prophecy had said take the horn there, she would have sent it immidiatly.

If the reasons were political, she would have held onto it and studied what to do now, when a few things had turned out quite differently than expected.

 

And  what did she do? Right, she held on to it. During her entire meeting with Verin, there's not a word about any prophecies. not even any objections from Verin, who seems to be the most well-read Aes sedai when it comes to the prophecies, when Siuan tells her she will put the horn away and think about what to do. You don't find it slightly odd that Verin did not at least attempt to remind Siuan that prophecy said something?

 

Compare it to Callandor. In TDR, the book that focuses as much on Callandor as TGH does on the horn, people seem almost compelled to blurt out something about the prophecies just be hearing Callandor mentioned.

But so far, we have gone through 11 books without even a whisper about the horn and Illian in the prophecies. Only that prophecies say that the horn will be found before TG, that's it.

 

I do not deny the possibility that Moraine could have made plans in advance.  However, as you point out, she would as a neccesity have allowed room for adaptation.  Her word choice at the moment she first sees the horn does not leave the nessecary room for adaptation.  She says that it "must" go, not that it "should" or "will" or "could."  Unless you are suggesting that Moraine is so full of herself that she believes that her plans are the ONLY possible conclusions to be reached, then she would have been forced to use another word by the her oath against lying. You should agree with me here, but if I were to say that you must agree with me, i'd either be deluded or a liar, that is unless I know something that you don't.

 

 

At that very point, to Moiraine the logical next move is taking the horn to Illian. She have found her Dragon, they got to the Eye first, they have the horn, now it is time to start building a base of power. It is a 'must' in her eyes, unless something else happens along the way. Incidently, something else did happen along the way, and we never heard of that 'must' again.

Later on, she tells Rand how he should take control over Taers army. Again, start building a base of power. She tells him several times that he Must attack Sammael. Was that in the prophecies as well then, since she told him he must?

 

It might be wise to keep in mind that 'must' does not always mean "This is the only possible option or the world is doomed!"...

 

No, she would not.  Verin has not aligned herself with either faction.  She traveled for a time with some rebels sisters, but as all those rebel sisters have spent all of their time since that trip in Rand's custody, it is not likely that word of her limited association with the rebels has leaked to either group.  She is neither Red Ajah or Blue, so she has a one-time free pass to enter either camp, and allign herself.  Simply, Verin could travel to the tower, walk in the front door, and let everyone assume that she is there to suport the tower

 

If she walked into the rebel camp, they would be very curious what she was doing there, and demand an explanation what she was up to. Verin stands below several of the sisters there, and having the Hall pull an answer out of her might be one of the few things Romanda and Lelaine might agree on. It is a risk Verin can't take, especially since if she started to tell them, she might find her in a situation where she has to reveal that Mat blew the horn, which is not exactly common knowledge. And she would have to make one hell of a case to convince Romanda and lelaine that she should be allowed to go ahead with her plan. More time wasted, without certainity that the goal will be reached.

 

In the Tower, reports would have told Elaida that Verin has been seen with Rand. She also failed to return to the Twer, something Elaida will see as proof that she's a rebel, and with Elaida growing more paranoid by the hour...

 

Verin is by no means a coward, but if she thinks something must be done she'd be a fool to take on such an amount of risks where every single mistake might lead to complete failure.

 

And using the confusion of a battle...Walking around with an ageless face in a battle with Seanchan on one side is not exactly a wise decision.

 

Moraine seemed to think that the people of Illian would follow Bal'alzamon if he showed up with the horn, why wouldn't they follow their rightful king if he returned with it?  Did Darlin's rebels balk at following Darlin and Rand after Darlin was named king?  Why would Stepaneos' popularity effect Rand's? 

 

Rand saved Illian from a forsaken. Stepaneos can't even use the horn, even if he showed up with it. He just might find that the horn means somewhat less than it used to. People tend to change their priorities when their own lives has been at stake.

And if they would turn their loyalties back to Stepaneos, they would basically be traitors.

With darin, it is quite another case. There were no king in Tear when Rand showed up. There are no double loyalties at work, only the wish to not follow Rand directly, but through their own king as a buffer. Something to do with 3000 years of not liking channelers. Illian does not have that history.

 

Why would Rand be pissed.  He has demonstrated no interest in personally ruling any of his conquered countries.  He has appointed regents in Carhien and Illian, and it appears he is ready to do the same in Arad Doman if Alsalam can't be found.  Upon Rand's conquest of Illian, his first thoughts are to find Stepaneos, presumably, (as I don't have ACoS w/ me @ the moment,) to reinstate him to his rightful crown.  Further, he has two ready made reasons to trust Stepaneos.  First, his father served as Stepaneos's Second captain in the Companions.  Stepaneos trusted Tam, Tam trusted Stepaneos, seems like a good reason to trust him to me.  Second, Stepaneos was the victim of kidnapping by the white tower.  You might recall tha Rand suffered a similar attempt at the same hands.  A shared experience, tends to bring people together, especially when it is an experience of this type.  If Verin were to rescue the rightful ruler of Illian from Elaida, I would expect that Rand would give Verin a dozen roses and a big fat kiss to boot.

 

He has no interest in ruling, true. He does however have quite an interest in controling armies, especially armies he can really trust. Like Illian, who came to him by their own free will.

 

Trusting Stepaneos might not be as easy for him as it once was. First the guy was controlled by a forsaken. Then he spent a lot of time in the Tower. With Elaida. He just Might be a different man than the man Tam served...TG is a tads to close to just hand over one of the more sizeable armies to a man he can't be quite sure of.

 

Two issues here, why Mat would go, and why didn't he care when it was in TV.  First, Mat would go to Illian for all of the aforementioned reasons.  He has comissioned Aldura to make cannons; he is going to help mediate between Rand and Tuon; he hears that the Horn has been brought to Illian.  Any of those might bring him downriver from the Tower of Ghenji.  Secondly, Mat had no inclination to go to TV for the Horn, for several reasons.  He did not know exactly where it was being hidden; he knew it was surrounded by his least favorite people, Aes Sedai; and he had other, more urgent, matters in front of him.  If the horn were moved from his least favorite place in the whole world to the town that is a few days downriver from his location, it makes it a whole lot more likely that Mat would actively pursue this part of his destiny.

 

Luckers adressed cannons and the treaty almost exactly the way I would, so I will not repeat that.

As for hearing about the horn, sure, he might hear about it somewhere on the way from the ToG. Perhaps even from a credible source. Of course, Moiraine might have a few other ideas. And those flashes in mats head just Might tell him that his priority right now should be hooking up with rand, wherever he is.

Unfortunatly, Mat does not have a clue where Rand is. However, after TOG the closest cities are Tar valon and caemlyn. Incidently, mat knows that Egwene should be camping outside Tar Valon, if nothing new has happened, and Elayne should be in Caemlyn. Both in a position where they might get the heads up on Rand, both able to Travel...And Elayne being queen having both gold and resources to set up Aludra.

 

Verin reaches Illian with stepaneos, and toghether they announce the end for the Hunt for the Horn.  Word leaves, with official signatures and seals, to every corner of Randland, by the fastest boats in Illian, including riverboats going north along the same river that Mat is traveling along, and that Rand is near.  Do you think that Rand will decide not to go to Illian to investigate?  How about Mat?  The fastest way for him to get back to civilization, and thus Rand, from your example, would be to travel downriver to Whitebridge.  You might remember that Whitebridge is where Mat and Rand first saw an official proclamation of the Hunt being called.  Where would Mat bet on Rand being if he heard that the horn had just been brought to Illian, and that Stepaneos had returned from the dead?  The answer, Illian.  That would put Rand and Mat in Illian together at around the same time.  Since we know that Tuon thinks that finding the horn is almost as important as finding the Dragon, imagine her suprise when she finds out that her husband, the horn, AND the Dragon are just a short boat trip away?  Don't you think that Mat's presence and promise of safety would be enough to get her to Illian? If Rand's in town, then so is Flinn and Nynaeve.  If Mat is in town, then for sure, Setalle Anan is too.  If Anan is healed, she would be in a really unique position to change Tuon's mind about Aes Sedai wouldn't she?  She what I mean about a perfect storm?  Of course it is all hapenstance and conjecture, but Illian, and the Horn, are the only things that can bring this about in this way. 

 

Thing is, it is just too perfect. It does not fit with the rest of the books.

11 books of people slipping away from eachother, looking for eachother, bumping into eachother by accident and pure luck, and all of a sudden everyone would decide to go and hook up for a cup of tea. Now that'd be a few odd chapters. Perhaps everyone tells all their secrets as well. And Mat takes off his medallion and allows anyone around to channel freely at him, and Tuon starts taking channeling lessons, and...Oops, got a bit carried away, but I saw an entire new story coming.

 

Which half?  The half that's hanging out in southern Andor just upriver from Illian, or the half that's in Northern Altara, just upriver from Illian?  Too bad Mat isn't traveling in the company of an Illianer who owns a fleet of river ships, oh wait he is.  Too bad he doesn't know an Ebou Dari fisherman with a fleet of boats in Illian either, oh wait he knows one of those too.

 

Oh, how very difficult for Mat to tell the one half he iis currently with to start marching to a specific place, and to send a rider to tell the other half to march to the exact same place, so Mat easily can hook up with all of them afterwards.

As for thre ships, too bad Mat has a friend who recently got a new interest in ships. There just might be slightly less available ships in illian than you think.

Domons fleet is manned by smugglers. Learning that the seafolk has abandoned all trade...They'd be sailing as soon as they had loaded as much cargo as their ships could possibly carry.

Anans husband is a fisher. Do you really think Rand would not have told all fishers to get to work, considering the importance of food?

But hey, let the people starve, Mat needs boats.

 

 

[cloglord]

If prophecy had said take the horn there, she would have sent it immidiatly.

 

No, if YOU had the Horn YOU would have sent it there immeadiately.  Suian would keep control over it until it was needed, just as intended to do with Rand, and she intended to do with Mat, until his escape.  Prophecy says that it must be found in Time for TG.  Just because we don't know what the prophecy of the horn says, does not mean that we should assume what type of link the Horn has to Illian.  You are also right, that Suian does not know that Sammael is in control of Illian, but she does know that she is not in control of Illian.  By relinquishing control of the Horn before it is needed, she would be unable to effect its destiny.  She would keep it until she had a reason to bring it to Illian, maybe it would be a political one, like the one Moraine suggests, maybe it would be the arrival of a horde of Trollocs at Illian's doorstep, whatever that reason would be, it wouldn't make sense from her POV to relinquish control, unless it furthered her own goals, the goal of a victory at TG.

 

 

Compare it to Callandor. In TDR, the book that focuses as much on Callandor as TGH does on the horn, people seem almost compelled to blurt out something about the prophecies just be hearing Callandor mentioned.

 

Okay, lets compare Callanor prophecies to prophecies about Perrin.  Perrin doesn't appear in prophecy at all until KoD's, yet Verin has obviously figured out his role in prophecy as early as TSR.  Remember the question about giving up his axe?  Is Callanor any more important than Perrin?  Is Moraine more perceptive than Verin?

 

[cloglord]

sorry, got interupted, I'll finish responding.

 

At that very point, to Moiraine the logical next move is taking the horn to Illian.

 

The next logical move is not the same as the next nessecary move.

 

It might be wise to keep in mind that 'must' does not always mean "This is the only possible option or the world is doomed!"...

 

Yeah it kinda does, unless you are using it incorrectly.

 

From the Miriam Webster Dicionary

 

"Must: be compelled by physical necessity to <one must eat to live> : be required by immediate or future need or purpose to"

 

In the Tower, reports would have told Elaida that Verin has been seen with Rand. She also failed to return to the Twer, something Elaida will see as proof that she's a rebel, and with Elaida growing more paranoid by the hour...

 

What reports?  Would these be from the same agents that have kept the tower completely in the dark about trifling little things like, Duami's wells, the failed attack on the Black Tower, the ashaman attack on Rand in Carhien, the forced fealty of 20 plus sisters, and the discovery of a cure for stilling?  Do you really think that Elaida is keeping tabs on every unaligned sister that hasn't shown up?  She doesn't even know what the Ajahs are up to within the tower.  As for Verin's failing to show up, more than 1/3rd of the sisters have failed to show up, do you think Elaida's started turning away sisters that do show up for fear of infiltration?

 

And using the confusion of a battle...Walking around with an ageless face in a battle with Seanchan on one side is not exactly a wise decision.

 

Yeah because she hasn't learned the weaves for illusion or masking ability, from Nynaeve in the past two months they've been hanging out around each other.

 

Rand saved Illian from a forsaken.

 

A forsken that even the council of nine has a hard time believing was Sammael.  Illianers as a whole have no idea what Rand saved them from.  They know that their king, and the head of the council of nine disapeared around the same time, and that the Dragon Reborn showed up and took over for them.

 

 

Stepaneos can't even use the horn, even if he showed up with it. He just might find that the horn means somewhat less than it used to.

 

I would think that the arrival of the Horn, the one thing that will bring back dead heroes to fight off the forces of the DO would very much interest the common people of Illian.  As to him being able to use it, why would he need to deomnstrate such an ability, especially if he had ana Aes Sedai there to attest to the Horn's authenticity.  Why wouldn't the people believe in their King, escpecially if he were the one to find their most treasured cultural artifact? Zaida returns to the seafolk with the bowl of the winds, and they make her a queen, why wouldn't the illianers do the same for Stepaneos and the Horn.

 

There were no king in Tear when Rand showed up. There are no double loyalties at work, only the wish to not follow Rand directly, but through their own king as a buffer. Something to do with 3000 years of not liking channelers. Illian does not have that history.

 

There was no king in Illian when Rand showed up either, just as there was no king in Carhien, there was no Queen in Andor, and presumably there will be no king in Arad Doman.  The Illianers gave Rand a position that he doesn't really want, but felt obligated to take since they were the first country to offer it to him.  How will he feel about his acceptance, once he finds out that he's sitting in someone else's uncomfortable seat?  Will he even care?  I mean the crown of swords doesn't really go with beggars robes does it?

 

 

Trusting Stepaneos might not be as easy for him as it once was. First the guy was controlled by a forsaken. Then he spent a lot of time in the Tower. With Elaida. He just Might be a different man than the man Tam served...TG is a tads to close to just hand over one of the more sizeable armies to a man he can't be quite sure of.

 

You mean to say that Rand won't be able to trust Stepaneos far enough to be sure that Illian would stay alligned with him and the forces of light?  What time has Stepaneos spent in the tower?  He's been there like a week.  Is High Lord Darlin similarly untrustworthy?  After all Be'lal ruled in Tear before Rand showed up, and Rand turned Tear over to him after meeting him once.  How long had Rand known Gregorin before handing Illian over?

 

Unfortunatly, Mat does not have a clue where Rand is. However, after TOG the closest cities are Tar valon and caemlyn. Incidently, mat knows that Egwene should be camping outside Tar Valon, if nothing new has happened, and Elayne should be in Caemlyn. Both in a position where they might get the heads up on Rand, both able to Travel...And Elayne being queen having both gold and resources to set up Aludra.

 

He does have a clue, everytime he thinks about him, he gets a new clue.  Elayne was able to figure out Ebou Dar in TAR from the fact that only it and Illian had canals.  Why couldn't Mat?  Wouldn't a vision of a major port, with the sun rising in the East narrow things down to Illian or Ebou Dar?  Also, heve you looked at a Map recently?  The closest city of any size to the ToG is Whitebridge, then Lugard.  If you are looking at the map in terms of travel time, Illian is much closer than either TV OR Camelyn.  Neither Egewne or Elayne is in a position to help Mat with anything.  Both ladies are dead broke, and are either in the middle of a civil war or just finishing one.  Which is beside the point, as Mat has not had any more news of either of these ladies than he has of Rand, and is completely unable to telepathically track either. A day or two imagining Rand's colors would make it pretty obvious that Rand isn't hanging with either lady.

 

 

Thing is, it is just too perfect. It does not fit with the rest of the books.

 

Yeah, the rest of the books aren't the last book of the series either.  If RJ doesn't get it done in this one, its not getting done, I suposect that it will be necesary for RJ to wrap up a few more loose ends than normal in AMoL.

 

Domons fleet is manned by smugglers. Learning that the seafolk has abandoned all trade...They'd be sailing as soon as they had loaded as much cargo as their ships could possibly carry.

Anans husband is a fisher. Do you really think Rand would not have told all fishers to get to work, considering the importance of food?

But hey, let the people starve, Mat needs boats.

 

Domon's fleet is manned by people who work for Doman, they will go where he tells them to go.  Anan's fleet works for Anan, not Rand, they will go where the Anan's tell them to go.  Illian had enough fishing boats to keep Illian fed before Anan's ships showed up.  Unless you think that Rand has been flitting around, personally micromanaging the economies of the countries he's in control of?  The point was, that Mat has accessability to enough ships to move the Band by river, if he so chose.

 

 

 

[Darkness Incarnated]

Cloglord, you're going on Moiraine's interpretation of the alleged Horn prophecies. You ignored an earlier comment of mine, but I'll bring it back: she's not infallible. You seem to believe that the fact that she uses the word must means her interpretation is the correct one. It's her interpretation, but in no way does that make it correct. I seem to remember her disagreeing with Rand about certain parts of the Prophecies, and Rand's interpretation proved to be the right one.

 

I would be curious to know why the Horn would be tied to one specific country? What happened for it to be so? What purpose would that actually serve? I see the Horn as an international symbol, not of any country and of all. Anyway, whatever it is that happened, I see it to be in the order of cultural/political reasons. The Horn was hidden in the Eye 3000 years ago, before Illian was on the map. Comments like 'the Illianners would follow Ba'alzamon (sp) himself if he came with the Horn' puzzle me. For it to be so, what it implies, is that the Illianners (as a whole, not simply their leaders) would have to be aware of at least something from the Horn prophecies. Yet, we see nothing? Not a Hunter reciting a few verses? Maj--I think it's him--put it best. Moiraine meant the Horn for Rand, as the Dragon Reborn, which is only logical. And as the Dragon Reborn, Rand needed a power base. And apparently the Illianners would go crazy about anyone who brought the Horn. Rand + the Horn = an easily won power base in Illian. Then a certain guy went and blew it, and  Rand was suddenly not in the picture anymore, and the plan faded into the background. I remain unconvinced as to why the Horn has to be tied to Illian. Again, it's Moiraine's interpretation. Elaida's Foretelling, her interpretation of it, comes to mind here.

[Majsju]

This is getting ridicilous.

 

No, if YOU had the Horn YOU would have sent it there immeadiately.  Suian would keep control over it until it was needed, just as intended to do with Rand, and she intended to do with Mat, until his escape.  Prophecy says that it must be found in Time for TG.  Just because we don't know what the prophecy of the horn says, does not mean that we should assume what type of link the Horn has to Illian.  You are also right, that Suian does not know that Sammael is in control of Illian, but she does know that she is not in control of Illian.  By relinquishing control of the Horn before it is needed, she would be unable to effect its destiny.  She would keep it until she had a reason to bring it to Illian, maybe it would be a political one, like the one Moraine suggests, maybe it would be the arrival of a horde of Trollocs at Illian's doorstep, whatever that reason would be, it wouldn't make sense from her POV to relinquish control, unless it furthered her own goals, the goal of a victory at TG.

 

 

In other words, she would send it there if there was need to do so, not because any prophecy says so. Read what she says, she will consider What to do. Not consider when will be the best time to send it to Illian.

 

Okay, lets compare Callanor prophecies to prophecies about Perrin.  Perrin doesn't appear in prophecy at all until KoD's, yet Verin has obviously figured out his role in prophecy as early as TSR.  Remember the question about giving up his axe?  Is Callanor any more important than Perrin?  Is Moraine more perceptive than Verin?

 

And which book focuses on Perrin? Don't compare apples to oranges.

 

The main theme for TGH is the hunt for the horn.

The main theme for TDR is the hunt for Callandor.

With Callandor, we get constant references to its place in the prophecies, even long after Rand has taken it.

With the horn, not a single reference in any of the 11 books.

 

Yeah it kinda does, unless you are using it incorrectly.

 

From the Miriam Webster Dicionary

 

"Must: be compelled by physical necessity to <one must eat to live> : be required by immediate or future need or purpose to"

 

When using a dictionary, it is a good idea to read the entire entry.

 

1 a : be commanded or requested to <you must stop> b : be urged to : ought by all means to <you must read that book>

2 : be compelled by physical necessity to <one must eat to live> : be required by immediate or future need or purpose to <we must hurry to catch the bus>

3 a : be obliged to : be compelled by social considerations to <I must say you're looking well> b : be required by law, custom, or moral conscience to <we must obey the rules> c : be determined to <if you must go at least wait for me> d : be unreasonably or perversely compelled to <why must you argue>

4 : be logically inferred or supposed to <it must be time>

5 : be compelled by fate or by natural law to <what must be will be>

6 : was or were presumably certain to : was or were bound to <if he did it she must have known>

7 dialect : MAY, SHALL -- used chiefly in questions

intransitive verb, archaic : to be obliged to go <I must to Coventry --

 

Which makes a lot of difference.

 

What reports?  Would these be from the same agents that have kept the tower completely in the dark about trifling little things like, Duami's wells, the failed attack on the Black Tower, the ashaman attack on Rand in Carhien, the forced fealty of 20 plus sisters, and the discovery of a cure for stilling?  Do you really think that Elaida is keeping tabs on every unaligned sister that hasn't shown up?  She doesn't even know what the Ajahs are up to within the tower.  As for Verin's failing to show up, more than 1/3rd of the sisters have failed to show up, do you think Elaida's started turning away sisters that do show up for fear of infiltration?

 

So that the very reason the Red Ajah elected Tsutama was that Katerine reported back with the claim that Galina died at Dumais Wells still means that the Tower does not know about it?

That Tsutama knows that Toveine is bonded by Logain still means she does not know about the failed attack on the BT?

That Sashalles letter to Tsutama flat out says that both Logain as well as the sisters stilled at Dumais Wells has been healed means that the Tower still thinks healing stilling is impossible?

 

Yukiri has recieved a letter with very much the same information as Tsutama, which means the Gray Ajah knows these things as well.

Seems like the Tower knows a tad bit more than you think. Oh, and since they recieved letters from the sisters captured at Dumais Wells, there just might be a mention or two about Verin interogating them. You'd think they just Might be a wee bit upset about that...

 

Yeah because she hasn't learned the weaves for illusion or masking ability, from Nynaeve in the past two months they've been hanging out around each other.

 

 

So she would walk around disguised as a servant, in the middle of a battle? Instead of, as a real servant would do, hide or run for their lives?

Yeah, that won't raise a few eyebrows...

 

A forsken that even the council of nine has a hard time believing was Sammael.  Illianers as a whole have no idea what Rand saved them from.  They know that their king, and the head of the council of nine disapeared around the same time, and that the Dragon Reborn showed up and took over for them.

 

Whether or not they know or believe that Lord Brend was a forsaken is irrelevant. It is the saving part that matters. Rand saved them from starvation, and got rid of a lord, who, forsaken or not, meant disaster for the common man. Then he led the army against an invading force, and saved them again.

 

He does have a clue, everytime he thinks about him, he gets a new clue.  Elayne was able to figure out Ebou Dar in TAR from the fact that only it and Illian had canals.  Why couldn't Mat?  Wouldn't a vision of a major port, with the sun rising in the East narrow things down to Illian or Ebou Dar?  Also, heve you looked at a Map recently?  The closest city of any size to the ToG is Whitebridge, then Lugard.  If you are looking at the map in terms of travel time, Illian is much closer than either TV OR Camelyn.  Neither Egewne or Elayne is in a position to help Mat with anything.  Both ladies are dead broke, and are either in the middle of a civil war or just finishing one.  Which is beside the point, as Mat has not had any more news of either of these ladies than he has of Rand, and is completely unable to telepathically track either. A day or two imagining Rand's colors would make it pretty obvious that Rand isn't hanging with either lady.

 

Even IF Mat would recognize rands whereabouts in one of those flashes (which is a big IF, considering that Rand is not very likely to be strolling around outdoors to provide Mat with any canals in the vision, all Mat would see is bits of the inside of apalace where he's never been), they won't do him much good, since Rand has this little ability to Travel.

 

Going to Egwene or Elayne might give him some information on what Rand is currently up to, which would make it way easier to actually find him. And, he'd get that nice little bonus of being with someone who also knows how to Travel. He may not like it, but he's smart enough to realize the benefit of someone able to open a hole in the air to the exact spot you need to go.

 

Yeah, the rest of the books aren't the last book of the series either.  If RJ doesn't get it done in this one, its not getting done, I suposect that it will be necesary for RJ to wrap up a few more loose ends than normal in AMoL.

 

 

Just because he will wrap up considerably more things than usual does not mean he will completely change his style of writing.

 

So you think Domons men are sitting around just fiddling their thumbs, waiting for orders? He would be paying them for not doing anything? Heh, I must have missed the part where Domon claimed to be an altruist.

 

And Mr Anan would not jump at the opportunity to get a quite nice income  boost, at a time when he and the missus are  supposed to start a new life in a new town? Your vision of WOT seems to be the socialist paradise, noone is interested in making a profit.

[cloglord]

In other words, she would send it there if there was need to do so, not because any prophecy says so. Read what she says, she will consider What to do. Not consider when will be the best time to send it to Illian.

 

No, if it is prophesized as I believe, then she is simply deciding the best time to assist in the prophecies fulfillment.  You were suggesting that she would not have any leeway in her timing if it were pnrophesized, which it untrue.

 

And which book focuses on Perrin? Don't compare apples to oranges.

 

It is an apt comparision, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.  I don't agree that TDR was focused on Callanor, so how that for being disagreeeable for its own sake?

 

When using a dictionary, it is a good idea to read the entire entry.

 

You are absolutely correct, which is why I DID read the whole entry.  As you point out there are 7 entyries under the word must.  I included the most applicable to what Moraine actually said, but lets go ahead and look at the othenr 6.  Of the 7 entnries found, 6 of them are examples of absolutes, the 7th, the one that you emphasize, also states within it that that form of the word is used in questions.  As Moraine is not quoted as having said, "The Horn must go to Illian?"  I must assume that Monraine was using one of the other six ways that the word can be used, one of the 6 imperative forms of the word.

 

So that the very reason the Red Ajah elected Tsutama was that Katerine reported back with the claim that Galina died at Dumais Wells still means that the Tower does not know about it?

That Tsutama knows that Toveine is bonded by Logain still means she does not know about the failed attack on the BT?

That Sashalles letter to Tsutama flat out says that both Logain as well as the sisters stilled at Dumais Wells has been healed means that the Tower still thinks healing stilling is impossible?

 

Yukiri has recieved a letter with very much the same information as Tsutama, which means the Gray Ajah knows these things as well.

Seems like the Tower knows a tad bit more than you think. Oh, and since they recieved letters from the sisters captured at Dumais Wells, there just might be a mention or two about Verin interogating them. You'd think they just Might be a wee bit upset about that...

 

I didn't claim that these things weren't now known to the tower, merely pointing out that it took them MONTHS to find out.  And the ajahs have been doing a spectacular job of passing information on to Eladia lately haven't they?

 

So she would walk around disguised as a servant, in the middle of a battle? Instead of, as a real servant would do, hide or run for their lives?

Yeah, that won't raise a few eyebrows...

 

Or maybe she'd just hide herself with illusion, and move when no one was looking?  This is ridculous, Verin is very capable of getting into and out of the Tower undetected, regardless of the circumstances.  Period. She knows the weaves that would assist her, she's not actively recognized as a rebel, and she has hidden the horn in her home of the past 200+ years.  For that matter, she could make herself invisible, Travel directly to where she the horn is hid, and Travel out in a matter of moments.

 

 

Going to Egwene or Elayne might give him some information on what Rand is currently up to, which would make it way easier to actually find him.

 

So you are saying that a trip of a month or more, would be a productive way for Mat to spend his time?  I find that odd considering your earlier statements in this thread.

 

All in all, a month. And Mat has not started yet. Of course, Mat being Mat he might want to hook up with the Band agin, which would add even more time. Good thing there no TG or something like that lurking around the corner.

 

....hmmm

 

So you think Domons men are sitting around just fiddling their thumbs, waiting for orders? He would be paying them for not doing anything? Heh, I must have missed the part where Domon claimed to be an altruist.

 

Nope I think that those men are currently doing what they do so well, sailing up and down the very same river that Mat, Domon, and 1/2 the band are right next to.  And I think that Anan's boats are fishing off the Illian coast right now, but I also think that the Anan's are willing to let Mat pay them to transport soldiers as  well.

 

Cloglord, you're going on Moiraine's interpretation of the alleged Horn prophecies. You ignored an earlier comment of mine, but I'll bring it back: she's not infallible. You seem to believe that the fact that she uses the word must means her interpretation is the correct one. It's her interpretation, but in no way does that make it correct. I seem to remember her disagreeing with Rand about certain parts of the Prophecies, and Rand's interpretation proved to be the right one.

 

First, I'm sorry if I didn't respond to your point, I started this thread to get your opinions, and I didn't meant to overlook yours.  Second, you are absolutely correct that Moraine is not innfalliable.  However, she is along-time student of prophecy, is familiar with a prophecy of the Horn, and seems to be sure that her interpretation is correct.  In the instances that she disagrees with Rand, I co not recall her arguing with the same degree of certainty that she expressed at the end of TEotW.  She did argue as vehemently, but not as certainly.

 

I would be curious to know why the Horn would be tied to one specific country?

 

This, I believe I can shed a little light on.  TBWB tells us that most of the population of Illian is concentrated in Illian.  Bayle ~Domon` ha`s a brief POV in t`he beggi`ning of TGH that tells us that the tradition of the great hunt in Illian dates back to the AoL.  It is my assumption that while the nation of Illian has not existed since the AoL, there has been a city, associated with that harbor, that has been there since that time.  Since it is the most populous city in Illian, the tradition/myth/prophecy has been tied to the city, and by extension to the nation of Illian.  That is how I explain it

[RobertAlexWillis]

This has reached stunning levels of futility.

 

No, if it is prophesized as I believe, then she is simply deciding the best time to assist in the prophecies fulfillment.  You were suggesting that she would not have any leeway in her timing if it were pnrophesized, which it untrue.

 

The absolute lack of reference to any such prophecy would be a stunning omission.  The prophecy exists only in your head.

 

Bayle ~Domon` ha`s a brief POV in t`he beggi`ning of TGH that tells us that the tradition of the great hunt in Illian dates back to the AoL.

 

Thats sort of ... insane, since Illian didn't exist in the Age of Legends, and the Horn wasn't lost until the beginning of the War of the Power.

 

The first recorded Hunt was called before Illian existed as a nation (and there is no mention of the city being large or prominent within another nation, or having another older name, such as is the case with cities like Cairhien or Tear).  The city of Illian is not mentioned in connection with that Hunt, which was called during the period between the Trolloc Wars and the rise of Hawkwing.

 

At that time, Illian, assuming it existed in its current location, would have been right on the border between Shiota and Fergansea, just as it would earlier have been on the border between Eharon and Essenia.  It is likely that the port which now serves Illian began to be developed by Fergansea, since it shared a border with Moreina but had no port to rival Tear.  Essenia and Moreina both had the port at Tear, and Shiota and Eharon were centered around what is now Ebou Dar, so they would have no reason to develop the harbor that is now Illian.  So, the city of Illian was likely a very small town or fishing village until late in the period between the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing.  It would have been a site that Hawkwing would have wanted to develop, because of its good natural harbor and its lack of ties to previous nations.  In the aftermath of his death, it rose to prominence and now is a power in the south.

 

The earliest Hunt that can be definitively tied to Illian was only 400 years prior to the events in the books.  The Hunt that produced the famous cycle of stories did not originate there.  The connection between Illian and the Horn is not one of history or prophecy.  It is a modern phenomenon that Illian promoted for political purposes, and that Moiraine planned to take advantage of politically.  The reasons for that plan no longer obtain, as Rand is now the King of Illian.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh, and one other thing.

 

Mat is not going to have hundreds, or even dozens, of working metal cannons and gunpowder in time for Tarmon Gai'don.  There is nothing in Egwene's dreams that puts a timeframe on the appearance of his full-size Dragons.  It is much more likely that we will not see Mat with many cannons until the outrigger novels 5-10 years after Tarmon Gai'don.  So, Illian's "ready supply" of saltpeter isn't going to play into any decision Mat makes.  The cannon argument is irrelevent.

[cloglord]

The first recorded Hunt was called before Illian existed as a nation (and there is no mention of the city being large or prominent within another nation, or having another older name, such as is the case with cities like Cairhien or Tear).  The city of Illian is not mentioned in connection with that Hunt, which was called during the period between the Trolloc Wars and the rise of Hawkwing.

 

TGH Ch.9

 

In only a few more days, the Great Hunt of the Horn would be sent forth with pomp and ceremony that tradition claimed dated to the Age of Legends.

 

But then of course you know more about the great hunt for the horn than Bayle Domon.

 

TGH CH 26

 

I don't suppose you are talking about simply riding to Shienar and handing the Horn to-who?-the King?  Why Shienar?  The legends all tie the Horn to Illian.

 

Or Thom?

 

The absolute lack of reference to any such prophecy would be a stunning omission.  The prophecy exists only in your head.

 

TGH Ch. 5

 

Moraine nodded.  Agelmar was familiar with the Prophecy of the Horn; most who fought the Dark One were.

 

The Prophecy exists only in my head, Suian's head, Moraine's Head, Agelmar's head, and the heads of most who fight the Shadow.  If it's not in yours it implies that you are ignorant or a darkfriend.  You pick.

 

Mat is not going to have hundreds, or even dozens, of working metal cannons and gunpowder in time for Tarmon Gai'don.

 

That is an excellent opinion, and I don't neccesarily disagree.  However Mat doesn't know about the outrigger novels does he?  He doesn't even know, besides the general sense of urgency felt by most of the characters, how close TG is.  So why do you think that he would abandon the idea, or not make any decisions about where the best place to begin would be?  I believe that you are thinking like a reader, not like Mat would in this situation.  I'm talking about Mat's motives, reasons why he would go to Illian.  I make no claim about the number of cannons he could reasonably produce.

[Majsju]

Quote

Moraine nodded.  Agelmar was familiar with the Prophecy of the Horn; most who fought the Dark One were.

 

The Prophecy exists only in my head, Suian's head, Moraine's Head, Agelmar's head, and the heads of most who fight the Shadow.  If it's not in yours it implies that you are ignorant or a darkfriend.  You pick.

 

And here we go again.

 

The little cut-out you quoted continues.

"'Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation.'"

 

That's the prophecy they are talking about. Incidently, the part of prophecy that is fulfilled when Mat blows the horn.

[RobertAlexWillis]

But then of course you know more about the great hunt for the horn than Bayle Domon.

 

Because, of course, Bayle Domon is the omnipotent knower of everything, incapable of being influenced by the propaganda of his homeland ...

 

But in this case, I do, because I have access to the author.

 

The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

The Horn was not lost in Age of Legends.  Its location was openly known, until the end of the Decline, and then it was thought to be destroyed.

 

Illian did not exist in the Age of Legends.

 

There was no Hunt for the Horn in the Age of Legends.

 

Or Thom?

 

Legends are far different from prophecies.  Legends are stories that Thom tells professionally.  And this would not be the first mistake we've seen from a character in the books (see above).  Thom knows alot of stuff, but he's hardly infallible.

 

TGH Ch. 5

 

Nothing in that chapter cites a prophecy that links the Horn to Illian.  Siuan says, and I quote:

 

"And prophecy said it would only be found just in time for the Last Battle."

 

Moiraine later cites a "Prophecy of the Horn" (mentioned nowhere else) from which only one line is provided.  "Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation."

 

There is no indication, in either of those statements, that the Horn must, should, or will go anywhere near Illian.  There is not even any indication that the "Prophecy of the Horn" contains anything more than the one line Moiraine quoted!

 

When I said "The prophecy only exists in your head," I meant the prophecy that links the Horn to Illian.  If you didn't know that, then you need to read the rest of my arguments.

 

The Prophecy exists only in my head, Suian's head, Moraine's Head, Agelmar's head, and the heads of most who fight the Shadow.  If it's not in yours it implies that you are ignorant or a darkfriend.  You pick.

 

See above, genius.

 

He doesn't even know, besides the general sense of urgency felt by most of the characters, how close TG is.  So why do you think that he would abandon the idea, or not make any decisions about where the best place to begin would be?

 

If he has no idea how close Tarmon Gai'don is, why is he going to commandeer the resources of an entire city, right now, to produce hundreds of cannons?  And if he does know how close it is, then my previously stated reasons apply.

 

I believe you are thinking like a reader who knows Egwene's dreams, and the history and effectiveness of gunpowder and cannons in warfare, not like Mat, who views them as useful, certainly, but has alot of other things on his mind too.  Mat has no idea that saltpeter is in gunpowder, or that the tanneries of Illian could produce an ample supply.  He has no idea of the manufacturing infrastructure necessary to produce large numbers of artillery pieces, except in the most broad terms.  Even the memories of the generals in his head won't provide that.  He doesn't have Napoleon Bonaparte, or James Longstreet, in his head.  Illian's potential to produce cannons will not enter his thought process on where to go after he rescues Moiraine.

[cloglord]

From the creator, (the same place you cited, incedently)

 

once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc.

 

The horn was lost before the WotS, in the AoL.  Don't you think they'd want it back,  don't you think that they would start looking for it once there was a prophecy that neccecitated its finding?

 

There was no Hunt for the Horn in the Age of Legends.

 

I never said there was, the Domon quote said that the tradition dated back to the AoL, I took it to mean the END of the AoL, you took it to be crazy.  Of the two explainations, I like mine better.

 

 

Nothing in that chapter cites a prophecy that links the Horn to Illian.  Siuan says, and I quote:

 

"And prophecy said it would only be found just in time for the Last Battle."

 

Moiraine later cites a "Prophecy of the Horn" (mentioned nowhere else) from which only one line is provided.  "Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation."

 

There is no indication, in either of those statements, that the Horn must, should, or will go anywhere near Illian.  There is not even any indication that the "Prophecy of the Horn" contains anything more than the one line Moiraine quoted!

 

Yes, very good, you can parrot back what I have been saying since the very first post in this thread.  Congratulations.

 

When I said "The prophecy only exists in your head," I meant the prophecy that links the Horn to Illian.  If you didn't know that, then you need to read the rest of my arguments.

 

Then say what you mean.  If that's what you meant, then you are the one unable to read another's arguments, because I have posted what you just felt the need to say about 4 different times in this thread.  Here, if it makes you feel better I'll say it again.  There is NO link between Illian and the Horn of Valere specifically mentioned ANYWHERE in the books.

 

Did you get it this time?

[Cybertrolloc]

The horn was lost before the WotS, in the AoL.  Don't you think they'd want it back,  don't you think that they would start looking for it once there was a prophecy that necessitated its finding?

Your explanation for how it wound up at the Eye should be amusing.

[Majsju]

The horn was lost before the WotS, in the AoL.  Don't you think they'd want it back,  don't you think that they would start looking for it once there was a prophecy that necessitated its finding?

Your explanation for how it wound up at the Eye should be amusing.

 

Indeed, especially since RJs own explanation includes yet another prophecy of the horn that, surprise surprise, fails to mention anything about Illian.

[cloglord]

Your explanation for how it wound up at the Eye should be amusing.

 

Chapter 26 in TSR gives us clues as to how the Horn ended up in the EotW.  An Aes Sedai named Oselle is upset because another Aes Sedai named Deindre can not tell her when her foretelling is going to take place.  The EotW appears to be the subject of discussion, as The banner and Someshta are both in the same room, and they are dicussing plans that will require male aes sedai, barely touched by the taint.  It appears that Oselle is plauged by the same problem that I have, a lack of specificity in what is foretold.  It seems likely to me, that the reason that the banner, and presumably the Horn, are going to be placed at the Eye of the world, because of a vauge prophecy, perhaps the very same vauge prophecy we are operating under now, not that Horn will only be found in time for TG.

 

So let me ask this question, how is it that the Horn will only be foud in time for the last battle, if its location is known?  It can't, it must be hidden. Which is apparently what Oselle and Diendre are planning here.  The horn was lost in the AoL, was recovered by a few Aes Sedai after the sealing, and hidden as per Diendre's foretelling, until TG.  How does a lost thing become found?  Maybe people started looking for it, once it became clear that there was a prophecy realted to its finding.  Maybe those expeditions, became ceremonial after a while, maybe traditions became associated with them.  Maybe, Bayle Domon isn't an uncultured idiot who has never studied anything related to the far distant past, and maybe he knows what he's talking about.  The Horn was lost in the AoL, found briefly, and then hidden at the end of the AoL.  People have been looking for it ever since, I'd say that is a tradition that goes back to the AoL.

[Majsju]

The end of the AOL...Oh right, those 300 years when the world was busy with a little thing known as the Breaking.

And once the mountains stopped jumping around, and you did not risk waking up just to find yourself in the middle of a brand new ocean, just maybe people were a bit more concerned with things like, say not dying, and start building a new civilization, than go chasing after some horn. Unless there were a few who thought the Breaking was so much fun they really had to find it so LTT could be reborn, and do it again. Hey, beats a rollercoaster anyday.

 

And just maybe the Aes Sedai were a bit more concerned about saving what could be saved than to go and hand out copies of the brand new Karaethon Cycles to every little newly started village they could find.

 

A quite often mentioned theme in TWOT is that memories become legends, that become myths. What Domon says is way past memories, he's into legends now. With all the uncertainity that comes with the area.

[cloglord]

This is pretty ridiculous.  Let me see if I have this straight.

 

1.  (JUST TO GET IT OUT OF THE WAY FIRST THING)  There is no prophecy stated in the books that connects the Horn to Illian.

 

2.  There is nothing in the books that PREVENTS the Horn from going to Illian.

 

3.  Moraine, a student of prophecy, believes that the Horn "must" go to Illian.  Further, she states that it is there that it will be used.

 

4.  Thom, a student of the oldest stories known, links ALL of the legends of the Horn to Illian. 

 

5.  Illianers, (apparently all of them,) believe that the Horn will be found and returned to Illian.  They believe this to such an extent that Moraine believes that they would follow an obvious agent of the DO were he to show up there with it.

 

6. Bayle Domon, a student of ancient history, and citizen of Illian claims that the ceremony surrounding the horn dates back to the age of legends.

 

 

So, what you guys are saying is that the Horn WILL NOT go to Illian because Moraine is a schemer who has wrongly interpreted the reasearch she has done, because, Thom does not correctly know the stories that he tells, that Domon in unfamiliar with the traditions of his home country, and because of some Illianer propaganda conspiracy that has brought tourists to Illian once in the last 400 years?

 

What I'm trying to argue is that the Horn is likely to go to Illian.  What are you arguing?  Tell me what indications to the contrary we have?  What proof do you have that some past Illianer King was a propagandist?  What indications can you cite that Moraine, Thom, and Doman are wrong?  All I've heard for the past umpteen replies is reasons why I could be wrong, nothing to support why you are right.

 

So let's hear it.  Come on Maj, RAW,...where will the horn end up?  How will it come to pass?  The ONLY indications we have as to where the horn will end up point to Illian.  If you truly believe that I'm wrong, prove it.  Tearing me down is easy enough, anyone can be disagreeable.  I'm throwing down the gauntlet, come up with something more plausible then. 

[lou]

wouldnt it be ironic if the horn was used at TG, and nobody showed up? maybe hawkwing.....birgitte, LTT, gaidal, and who knows how many others have already been spun out.

then it really wouldnt matter where the horn ended up.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If you truly believe that I'm wrong, prove it.

 

Naturally, we can't prove it.  A Memory of Light will prove it.  But you certainly haven't proved your point either.  ::)

 

Tearing me down is easy enough, anyone can be disagreeable.  I'm throwing down the gauntlet, come up with something more plausible then.

 

Possibility 1) Mat comes out of the Tower of Ghenjei to find Verin waiting for him, with the Horn (and we find out Corianin's notes told her to go there).  They then go directly to Rand, wherever he is, to let him see Moiraine, and to make arrangements for using the Horn at Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Possibility 2) Mat comes out of the ToG and goes to Andor, to meet back up with the Band.  Verin finds him there, with the Horn.  They then go directly to Rand, wherever he is, to let him see Moiraine, and to make arrangements for using the Horn at Tarmon Gaidon.

 

See ... this is my beef with your idea, cloglord.  You start with "The Horn must go to Illian", then try to make events fit that premise.  When I'm looking at the situation, I just try to say "What will they do, and why?" and Illian never enters the picture.

 

Obviously, we're never going to agree, so I'm truly going to say no more on the subject.

[Majsju]

What Robert said.

[cloglord]

Naturally, we can't prove it.

 

If you can't prove I'm wrong stop treating me like I'm an idiot.  Apparently your arguments are no stronger or more likely than mine.  At least I'm willing to put an idea forth, and defend it with support cited in the books.

 

Possibility 1) Mat comes out of the Tower of Ghenjei to find Verin waiting for him, with the Horn (and we find out Corianin's notes told her to go there).  They then go directly to Rand, wherever he is, to let him see Moiraine, and to make arrangements for using the Horn at Tarmon Gaidon.

 

 

THERE IS NO LINK BETWEEN VERIN AND MAT MENTIONED IN CORIANIN"S NOTES.  If there were, surely Verin would have mentioned them somewhere, but in 11 books, there hasn't been a single mention of Mat, the tower of ghenji, or Verin being related to Corianin's notes.  What if Verin misinterpreted Corianin Neadal's notes?  Maybe Corianin's notes were planted by Ishmael.  Obviously this is a ludicrous and naive argument.  See how easy that was? 

 

See ... this is my beef with your idea, cloglord.  You start with "The Horn must go to Illian", then try to make events fit that premise.  When I'm looking at the situation, I just try to say "What will they do, and why?" and Illian never enters the picture.

 

I'm not starting with a premise that "The Horn must go to Illian," in fact the entire point of starting this new thread was to put ALL of the reasons that I thought that Illian might be important in one place, and to try and look at the situation from a "big picture," POV.  What I did was list several reasons that I thought that Illian would be important to AMoL, and try to show, how several different factors, led me to believe that Illian would be a major focus for the action of AMoL.  You just decided to jump in and argue the old Horn argument, assuming that I had something to prove, when I'm merely trying to figure out what is most likely, and how it might tie into something larger.

 

What Robert said.

 

Good job Polly would you like another cracker?

[Cybertrolloc]

Let's go back to the BWBoBA quote then. If there's only Illian the city surrounded by miles and miles of nothing interesting, why would it be the nexus of much of AMoL?