Crazy alternate world mojo, and a few comments on the Dark One

[MrJekyll]

Chapter 37 of the Great Hunt: What Might Be.

 

Using a Portal Stone, Rand takes Mat, Verin, and others from Stedding Tsofu to Toman Head. Sadly, things don't work out as planned, and it takes months to 'reach' Toman Head, as each person lives alternate lives. We watch as Rand continually loses to the Dark One, no matter what happens. "I have won again, Lews Therin" whispers the Dark One after each death. Honestly, this is one of my favourite chapters in the series, taken by itself.

 

HOWEVER ...

 

1) How come Rand never sees a future life that parallels or even comes close to his real future? No "he goes to the Aiel Waste, unites the clans, takes over some cities of the world ... then dies to Lanfear" or "he goes to the Aiel Waste, unites the clans, and dies to the Shadio."

 

Taken at face value, it's as if the life Rand is actually leading is 1 in a million, the prophecies be damned. In all of the alternate lives Rand sees, it's as though he never actually accomplishes anything that he eventually will. It's always some alternate life where he never *becomes* the Dragon Reborn.

 

Again, taken at face value, this logically either means: a) The Dark One influenced the Portal Stone casting by Rand (I don't believe he would have that much power); b) it was one of those ta'veren bubbles (I suppose); or c) Robert Jordan crafted a really cool chapter but didn't fully consider all the implications.

 

2) It is said that if the Dark One breaks free in one 'alternate world', he would be free in EVERY world. There is, after all, only one Dark One and only one Creator.

 

Well ... um ... given that Rand LOST to the Dark One in every single portal stone alternate world, one would think that in one of those many, many, many losses Rand suffered, the Dark One actually succeeded in escaping his prison at least once.

 

And if this is the case, it's sort of sucky to think that you can do a great job in this world, sacrifice everything to beat the DO ... and then have your lame alter ego in bizarro world give in to the Dark One and set him free.

 

***

 

Anyhoo, that was just a couple of random thoughts that has always been in my head about the Wheel of Time series. ;)

[ironcross]

i think all the other worlds are imiges of the real world, when he was going through the first time it was a reflection where the trollocs had overwelmed the world, that dident mean that since they had there that they did in the real world.  furthermore i think his experiance at the stone was more similar to the experiance that egwen has at the rings in the white tower.  to quote the mythbusters... possible but not plasible.  i dont know if this makes any sense.

[Gentled Ben]

I think it makes sense. It's also possible that Rand projects his own reality in these portal worlds, or at least, he does so to an extent. All of the situations Rand encounters fit with reality as Rand knows it, the same as Egwene in the arches. When Egwene sees herself in the mirror during her test for Accepted, she sees herself with the ageless face of an Aes Sedai wearing the stole of the Amyrlin Seat, even though part of her experience in the arches is the knowledge that she has never sworn on the oath rod. We know, and she now knows, of course, that it's the oath rod itself which causes the ageless look, but she didn't know that then, so that suggests that she projected at least part of what was occurring in the arch ter-angreal, or at least, the way she was perceiving it, and I'm guessing that it might be the same with Rand and the portal stone worlds. He sees other possible lifetimes within the only context he can view them from--that of his personal experience and belief system to date.

[Luckers]

He actually describes some things that sound very close to what really happened in the side description. "He proclaimed himself Dragon Reborn and flung his banners accross the sky... sometimes Moiraine came and took him, sometimes alone, sometimes with those of his friends of survived Winternight... he married other women, Min, Elayne, and women he never knew before he lived those lives..."

 

He saw pretty much everything, and it all mashed together in his head under the phrase 'I win again, Lews Therin'.

 

But i do have a pet theory about how some of the parallel worlds are root worlds... or maybe prime worlds, and the rest are branches tied to those, but without the strength to truly exist themselves, and the further they go from their root reality, the less real they get. We know that both the realm of the Finns and the Ogier homeworld are parallel worlds, and i would suggest that they are prime worlds as well.

 

Nothing really to suggest this, except that we witness that the further the mirror worlds get from the reality of the world in the story, the more blurry they are. The less real. I would suggest that all the worlds connected by portal stones are connected to the world in the story, and that that world is their prime world, yet there are other prime worlds out there, im guessing, with their own tree of reality.

 

I think that that is what the Finns meant when they warned Mat that if he had not gone to Rhuidean he would have side-stepped the thread of fate--i suspect that had he done that, the real world would have diverged into a mirror world, and possibly have doomed humanity. The strongest reality would have been a reality ill-equiped to face the Dark One, and thats the end people.

 

Maybe this explains the Dark Ones ongoing attempts despite continual failure. He seeks to diverge the world away from its strongest path, so that it is weak and palid by the time he comes to fight it.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

But what makes the world we've witnessed in the books the optimum timeline, or root world?

 

After all, some things that happen definitely defy all odds. One would think that the optimum timeline is the one where the things most likely to happen do happen.

 

Also, might there be a point where the portal stone world becomes so far divergent that it actually ceases to exist? And might there be convergent worlds, if there are divergent ones?

[Luckers]

But what makes the world we've witnessed in the books the optimum timeline, or root world?

 

Happenstance and intentional effort on behalf of those working to stop the Dark One... perhaps. That was sort of what i meant, Mat came very close to pushing the world out of being the optimum timeline, which would have meant that a world less suited to fighting the Dark One would have become the optimum world.

 

It allows for both variation in the future, and the type of self-corrective actions the pattern can take.

 

After all, some things that happen definitely defy all odds. One would think that the optimum timeline is the one where the things most likely to happen do happen.

 

Actually thats precisely what I meant above. The optimum world path is not the most likely, its the one that best suites the function of the Patterns fuzzy logic. So, the pattern sends ta'veren and the like to help strengthen that branch. Doesn't mean it stays on that branch, though. If Mat had, for instance, not gone to Rhuidean, then that world would no longer have been best suited to fight the Dark One, so the Pattern moves another world into focus. This new focus thread may not be as well suited as the path were Mat HAD gone to Rhuidean, but the Pattern isn't really sentient, its intellegently reactive, much like a computer program.

 

Also, might there be a point where the portal stone world becomes so far divergent that it actually ceases to exist? And might there be convergent worlds, if there are divergent ones?

 

Good questions. No idea. I like the sound of it though. I wonder if the pattern could even reintergrate two diverged worlds? Sounds to me a little like the effect witnessed in the Horns sounding.

[Elwinn Taron]

And after "living" all those alternative worlds, Perrin is convinced that his life is tied to Rand totally.  And yet, in none of Rand's alternate lives do we see Perrin at all--or Mat, who apparently at some point betrays Rand.  Did Ishamael have the strength to influence what Rand saw?  Does the Pattern?  Or was RJ just trying to tie in some of what Rand lived with what Egwene saw in the arches for her test for Accepted? 

 

 

[Luckers]

Remember, the ones RJ wrote out in full are the ones Rand felt had great importance, not that he didn't see others involving Perrin and Mat. At the time Rand was struggling with two main things, the loss of Egwene and the fact that he could channel. Mat, who had likely been concidering betraying, or at least running from Rand, would have been deeply troubled by the life where he did that, and for Perrin, loyalty has always been a strong key. In seeing those other lives maybe he saw that Rand needed him--or identified with the depths of Rands isolation from channeling.

 

The key is in what you said. In none of Rands lives do WE see Perrin and Mat. But Rand makes it clear that he did 'in some alone, in some with those of his friends that survived Winternight'.

 

Rand saw alot of things that we arn't privy too.

[MrJekyll]

My pet theory is that Rand didn't actually come back in the 'real world' that he left, but instead one of the alternate portal worlds. :D So everything that's happened in the series will be rendered moot in book 12, as the Dark One says "Nah, I don't need to fight you ... I just took over in the REAL world that you left behind back in book 2!"

 

*cough*

 

Oh not.

 

I wonder, though, if it would be possible to selectively choose another portal world to really live your life. For arguments sake, let's say Elayne were to die because of such and such. Technically there would be a parallel world, identical to the current WoT world, where everything happened the same except for Elayne dying ... perhaps she turned left instead of right and didn't get hit by the cart crossing the street. Would it be possible for Rand to 'jump' to this parallel world where Elayne didn't die and continue living there?

 

And to continue on somewhat the same tack, what happens to the current person in the parallel world if you 'port' to it? Is it possible to enter a world where another you already exists? Technically if Rand were to go to another parallel world that closely mirrored the 'real' one, wouldn't there then be 2 Dragon Reborns? And if that can happen, then another Rand from a different world could always find his way to the 'real' one. That would be an interesting twist; evil Rand (likely he would have a goatee) from evil parallel world 4 comes to the real world to supplant good Rand.

 

Of course, it could always be argued that the pattern wouldn't allow that, to prevent bad clichés like the "son going back and killing his grandfather before he married his grandmother" anomoloies.

[Child of Lir]

Now, that's just being goatee-ist.  ;)

[Digbe]

Is it possible to enter a world where another you already exists? Technically if Rand were to go to another parallel world that closely mirrored the 'real' one, wouldn't there then be 2 Dragon Reborns? And if that can happen, then another Rand from a different world could always find his way to the 'real' one. That would be an interesting twist; evil Rand (likely he would have a goatee) from evil parallel world 4 comes to the real world to supplant good Rand.

 

Of course, it could always be argued that the pattern wouldn't allow that, to prevent bad clichés like the "son going back and killing his grandfather before he married his grandmother" anomoloies.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps the DO's method of 'capturing' souls and reintergrating them into the world as sort of a soul grafted into a body.  Said souls' core roots probably lie in the world of dreams.  And the separate lives the soul lives in separate world are just branches that extend into  the dream world. 

 

Perhaps thats why it is dangerous to enter the world of dreams in the flesh.  By entering, you 'back up' your thread into the core spindle(soul in tela..) while potentially damaging or possible dwindling the strength of that souls particular life thread which extends to one of infinite portal stone worlds... :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

What if the DO could use reach into the PSW's and find his Forsaken's exact bodies to put their souls into?

 

Then, they could look exactly the same.

[MrJekyll]

Perhaps the DO's method of 'capturing' souls and reintergrating them into the world as sort of a soul grafted into a body.  Said souls' core roots probably lie in the world of dreams.  And the separate lives the soul lives in separate world are just branches that extend into  the dream world.

 

You just blew my mind!!!

 

Think about it, that's what Balefire does ... burns the thread out of EVERY world! So when Forsaken xxx was balefired, he poofed at the same time in every other world he existed in. Imagine that ... someone is having a nice morning breakfast, pouring themselves tea to go with the crumpets, and then BA BAM! They disappear! Because in the alternate 'real' world Rand got a little kooky that morning.

[Digbe]

What if the DO could use reach into the PSW's and find his Forsaken's exact bodies to put their souls into?

 

Then, they could look exactly the same.

 

Perhaps this is how a Forsaken passes 'The Entrance Exam" of becoming immortal or touching the True Power...

[ironcross]

Perhaps the DO's method of 'capturing' souls and reintergrating them into the world as sort of a soul grafted into a body.  Said souls' core roots probably lie in the world of dreams.  And the separate lives the soul lives in separate world are just branches that extend into  the dream world.

 

You just blew my mind!!!

 

Think about it, that's what Balefire does ... burns the thread out of EVERY world! So when Forsaken xxx was balefired, he poofed at the same time in every other world he existed in. Imagine that ... someone is having a nice morning breakfast, pouring themselves tea to go with the crumpets, and then BA BAM! They disappear! Because in the alternate 'real' world Rand got a little kooky that morning.

 

conversly couldent one of the forsaken in an alternate world do the same to rand?