The Nature of the Creator and His Intentions

[Surreall]

 

3. People feel that he has some form of ability to shelter them, or protect them, or influence their lives in a positive manner. This is not a belief structue, but rather whats known as a 'deisis' a pervasive spiritual or social 'feeling'. The best analogy would be in the way certain people feel about luck, or fate. It's not a religious ideology, as such, yet in some ways it is.

 

 

I read this and immediately this sprang to mind  ;)

 

'Now it is such a bizarrely impossible coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful [the Babel fish] could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God. The arguement goes something like this:

 

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

 

"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

 

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.'

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

The Dark One and the Creator could be exactly even in strength, and due to circumstance the Creator may have won. Hell, the Dark One may have even have been stronger. Concider Lan's fight with Ryne in New Spring. Ryne was better, but due to hubris he lost.

 

I have to disagree with this. I only see the deity of lesser/equal strength winning if there were other factors involved in the conflict. And while there very may could have been, two truly equal forces should be on equal footing forever. What kind of circumstances could there possibly be? I don't really see a gust of wind blowing in the Creator's favor, or anything like that. The most I could envision is if there were other forces that existed outside of the DO and the Creator. But I find that unlikely.

 

I also find it interesting that the people of Randland believe in a Creator. I mean, yeah, I could see how they feel that there must be something to counteract the evil, and that they must have been created by someone.

 

And I find it odd that the DO mentions the Dragon as his ancient nemesis, as if the Creator wasn't his foe or something.

[Luckers]

 

3. People feel that he has some form of ability to shelter them, or protect them, or influence their lives in a positive manner. This is not a belief structue, but rather whats known as a 'deisis' a pervasive spiritual or social 'feeling'. The best analogy would be in the way certain people feel about luck, or fate. It's not a religious ideology, as such, yet in some ways it is.

 

 

I read this and immediately this sprang to mind  ;)

 

'Now it is such a bizarrely impossible coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful [the Babel fish] could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the nonexistence of God. The arguement goes something like this:

 

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

 

"But," say Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

 

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic.'

 

 

Lol. I love Douglas Adams, though in truth his later books became depressing. My favourite bit aside from that one is when Marvin talks to the space ship, and it commits suicide.

 

I have to disagree with this. I only see the deity of lesser/equal strength winning if there were other factors involved in the conflict. And while there very may could have been, two truly equal forces should be on equal footing forever. What kind of circumstances could there possibly be? I don't really see a gust of wind blowing in the Creator's favor, or anything like that. The most I could envision is if there were other forces that existed outside of the DO and the Creator. But I find that unlikely.

 

We have no particular knowledge of the cosmic forces unleashed when the Wheel was Created. Certainly the Wheel is of a scope and a nature that can effect the Dark One--effectively serving like that gust of wind you meantioned.

 

But, that being said, i was speaking more of personal circumstances, which is why i raised Ryne, who lost to Lan simply because he thought the fight over before it truly was. We have seen the Dark One to be effected by personal hubris, as well as paranoia and countless other emotional states that could have influenced the specific moment of the incident of a confrontation between the two. Once again, these beings are not the esoteric deity that we imagine when we think of Godlike beings--which is sort of the point.

 

But, again, beyond all that this whole point is probably moot given what we witness in the text. As I was pointing out to Robert, the nature of the Dark One's imprisonment seems to have not been directly confrontational between the two beings. This was the crux of our disagreement--the idea of imprisonment leads to a direct imposement of will, whereas what seems to have happened is that the Creator built a castle, and the Dark One has being laying siege to it since then. Certainly a denial of his will, and could therefore be termed a form of imprisonment, yet the implications are completely different.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

It seems odd to describe imperfect, human qualities to god-like figures. That really skews the entire picture of the Creation, for me. I understand what you are saying, though, because if such qualities were present, then it would have been possible for one deity to capitalize on the other's mistake.

 

From this, then, it shouldn't have to be a greater strength that enabled the Creator to imprison the DO. Rather, it could have been the DO making a mistake, or something to that effect.

[Luckers]

Yeah, pretty much. Personally i feel what we've witness suggests a lack of personal interest in the affairs of mankind, which allows for any of it.

 

And i suppose the distinction is that whilst these figures are 'god-like', they dont seem to be gods in the way we understand it, and that or understanding of gods was distorting our perceptions of the text for precisely that reason. *shrug*.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

It's interesting that Randlanders even know about the Creator. It makes sense that they assumed there must be a source of Light, and that someone must have created them, but how much of their theology is actually right?

 

Lews Therin comments about the Creator being akin to a Gardener, who tends to one flower until it blossoms and moves to the next. He says that the Creator does not mourn over the loss of a blossom.

 

But how can Lews possiblyp know this?

[Luckers]

It occurs to me that this knowledge could have come from the Dark One. Or could be human mythology from encounters like Rand's... or even simple human delusion. As i explored in my initial post, look at the comments that the catechism about the Creator keeps company with.

 

Thats me saying i have no idea, lol.

[lou]

It seems odd to describe imperfect, human qualities to god-like figures. That really skews the entire picture of the Creation, for me. I understand what you are saying, though, because if such qualities were present, then it would have been possible for one deity to capitalize on the other's mistake.

 

From this, then, it shouldn't have to be a greater strength that enabled the Creator to imprison the DO. Rather, it could have been the DO making a mistake, or something to that effect.

 

ascribing imperfect or human qualities only offends the christian theologist. if you were to look more towards greek,norse,or egyptian mythologies (it was theology to the norse,egyptians, and greeks) then you would see the seven deadly sins defined in most of those gods.

lets throw a spin on it:

well, what if the creater made this world with a wall around it that the DO could not penetrate, as opposed to creating a prison at a later date? like a petulant child who is keeping all the good toys for himself and leaving his "little brother" (for lack of a better term) out of the game, even when he is tired of the toys.....

[Luckers]

Lou has a fairly solid point, too. Keep in mind that Jordan is a Free Mason--the interchange of concepts of the devine between individual members is fairly broad.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

That's true, about the mythology. But one doesn't generally try to comprehend what the universe would be like if the Norse gods ruled it.

 

However we are trying to envision this scenario, which makes it wholly different.

 

And the element of manichaeism added into it makes it seem very strange.

 

Perhaps if it were a whole pantheon of deities, like in forgotten realms, it might be clearer. Because they are just "super-powerful" people limited to what their portfolio is. We don't even know if the Creator and DO have a portfolio.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Firstly, Robert, I was in a horrible mood when i read your post and i think i was looking to take umbrage. Totally sorry dude.

 

We had matching bad moods, then.  Its cool.  If you never fight with someone, then you don't care about what they think enough to really be a friend.  But if you can't get over it later, then you're not really friends either.

 

It good to know that we're friends.

 

Besides, you used the word "umbrage" correctly.  I can't stay mad at someone with a decent vocaculary!

[Luckers]

Vocaculary sounds deeply dirty, though i can't for the life of me say why.

 

And I agree completely about all that friends stuff. I say stuff, because its more manly, and there was never a more manly man than me. :)

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Vocaculary sounds deeply dirty, though i can't for the life of me say why.

 

Oops ... :-[

 

I think the QUERTY keyboard was instituted specifically to humiliate know-it-alls like me.

 

-sigh-

[Luckers]

Dude, you should have just run with it. I thought you were just subtly mocking me. You had total props.

[DonDew]

  This thread has been an interesting (and sometimes amusing) read, but the answer is really pretty simple and RJ gave it to us.

 

  RAW touched on this before it got personal-[ha ha]-, when he referrenced Rands reaction to Logain assuming the Creator did the "cleansing"(CoT ch.24,pg.674).

 

Rands thoughts;..."Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by thier choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower and die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weap for each blossom that fell,"

 

  I don't think he (RJ) could have been any more clear.

 

  Humans made the Bore themselves releasing/admitting the DO, now they have to deal with the consequences themselves.

 

  As to the incident in tEotW, I believe it's like someone (can't remember who) said earlier. Using the amount of the Power in the Eye somehow made a connection with the Creator, and Rand was told more or less, "You broke it,you fix it".

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Dude, you should have just run with it. I thought you were just subtly mocking me. You had total props.

 

I considered it ... but there are some children out there I didn't want to be responsible for educating ...

 

And Don, while we know that is what Rand believes, the central issue of this thread has been that we don't know that Rand (or anyone else) is actually correct in what they believe about the Creator (or the Dark One, for that matter) because we have almost no evidence that is non-subjective.

[Cadsuane]

Vocaculary sounds deeply dirty, though i can't for the life of me say why.

 

Because: "You can always trust me to catch the dirty. It's what i do. It's who i am."

 

It just comes naturally to you.  ;D

[Luckers]

Oh, go away you, or next year the poor can have some nice new Caddy skins.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hmm ... what to do with Caddy skins ... cover my bucket seats or make a new golf bag ... so many puns, so little time ...

[Cadsuane]

Either way, be sure to moisturize me regularly. And don't make me into apparel, since I'd really hate to sit in a closet until spring. After all, you're not allowed to wear White after Labor Day. ;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

I sort of doubt there's enough of you to go around me Caddy ... I wear a 54 long coat ... you could probably pitch that and live in it.

[Cadsuane]

Why are you confining me to outerwear??  ;) <-- extra saucy wink

[Luckers]

Guys, be careful--it's illegal to flirt if you are old, and you know... theres always that guy who'll turn you in, maybe for no reason, maybe because you disagree with him about the Nature of the Creator.

 

Ahem. What were we talking about?

[RobertAlexWillis]

You know, I could make a "Tighty Whities" joke here ... and I think I just did.  :D

 

And don't worry about it, Luckers.  You can have some Caddy socks.  Then she can complain about how you smell.

[Luckers]

I'm gay. No one complains about how my people smell--we're a very clean people, and have been that way ever since we came over here from France.