Was it Moridin in Shadar Logoth?

[LordSaladin]

Hi, guys something that i never added up was who helped Rand in Shadar Logoth? I think that they used the true power? And Moridin was the only one of the forsaken thta used it willingly and was allowed to use it a one point? If so why did he help Rand when he could have killed him?

[Majsju]

Yes, it was Moridin. Yes, it was TP.

[Lord_Naryb]

How do we know this. Does RJ say somewhere?

[Majsju]

Well, the physical description, and the fact that he uses TP kinda gives it away. And there is a definite confirmation in KOD, I won't say what though, already spoilered it enough.

[Child of Lir]

In answer to LordSaladin's final question, if I remember correctly, at this point Rand was still in line to be "Nae'blis" so Moridin was not allowed to kill him. That soon changed though.

[Barmacral]

Shouldn't this be in the General WoT discussion?

[Majsju]

Yes it should.

 

*moves*

[jsbrads]

Y'all can discuss it to your hearts content, Moridin has a different character, read how RJ describes him other times and here the fellow is nearly unassuming and the fellow could have hid his weaves.

[Seriodor]

im about 99% absolutely positive that it is not someone inverting there weaves, but was in fact moridin using the True Power. But then again who knows. Me.

[Luckers]

No, it has been proved that that individual was indeed Moridin in KoD... though it was essentially proven beforehand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Which leads us to a mildly interesting question.

 

Is it possible to tell the difference between someone using the One Power in inverted weaves, while hiding their ability to channel, and someone using the True Power.

 

Please understand, I am not disputing in any way that the Wanderer in Shadar Logoth is Moridin, or that Moridin was using the True Power.  That is, as Luckers says, well established by Rand's POV in KoD ch 18 (assuming one did not know it previously, which most of us did). I am simply asking a purely theoretical question.

 

Can anyone think of a way to tell the difference?

[Majsju]

Which leads us to a mildly interesting question.

 

Is it possible to tell the difference between someone using the One Power in inverted weaves, while hiding their ability to channel, and someone using the True Power.

 

Please understand, I am not disputing in any way that the Wanderer in Shadar Logoth is Moridin, or that Moridin was using the True Power.  That is, as Luckers says, well established by Rand's POV in KoD ch 18 (assuming one did not know it previously, which most of us did). I am simply asking a purely theoretical question.

 

Can anyone think of a way to tell the difference?

 

LTTs thoughts in that chapter indicates that there is a way. He must be fully aware of everything concerning inverted weaves, and yet he is dead certain Moridin uses TP.

[RobertAlexWillis]

LTTs thoughts in that chapter indicates that there is a way. He must be fully aware of everything concerning inverted weaves, and yet he is dead certain Moridin uses TP.

 

Hmmm, I'm not sure what that way would be.  This question arose for me because when Rand/LTT is thinking about it, he seems to base his assessment solely on the fact that he felt nothing, but only saw the effect ... which would also be the case, as far as we know, with someone who was both hiding their ability and inverting their weaves.

 

To quote:

 

He was using their so-called True Power.  It had to be that.  I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire.

 

(KoD ch 18)

 

So, how can you tell the difference?

[Gentled Ben]

Well, inverted weaves are tied off, aren't they? I think what you're referring to is reversing, and I think that still betrays that there is channeling going on. Verin can tell that Graendal is channeling at her even though she can't see the weaves because they're reversed, and she couldn't tell a moment before that Graendal could even channel, as she was hiding her ability, but once she started fighting Verin's circle, Verin knew she was channeling at her. Of course, once the shield bounced and Graendal turned towards her, I'm sure that anyone would at least assume they're being channeled at, but it didn't come across to me when I read it, that it was just an assumption. Maybe LTT expects to at least feel a slight...something...if the balefire weave had been reversed, and the absence of that something convinced him that it was the TP instead.

[RobertAlexWillis]

"Reversed weaves" would indeed be the proper term for weaves that are concealed while they are being channeled, and is the term I should have used.  However, in the hypothetical situation I proposed, more than just reversing is being done.  Reversing is being done in combination with concealment of the ability to channel.  An excellent example of this is, as you point out, Verin's experience with Graendal at the cleansing.

 

Graendal was already embracing the Source when Verin first tried to shield her.  Yet Verin saw and sensed nothing.  It specifically says that "Verin could not see the weaves, but she knew when she was fighting off an attack on her life ..."  So, while Verin's knowledge that Graendal is channeling at her is not simply an assumption (Verin had the evidence of having her attempted shield rebound) it is indeed a deduction, rather than something she directly sensed.

 

It just seems to me that the description from Lews Therin/Rand's thoughts (that he had "felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire") fits perfectly with both situations, ie, using the True Power, and using the One Power, reversed, while concealing your ability to channel.

[verby]

Possibly, but it could very likel have been Osan'gar(or whtever his name was). It wasnt until after Sammeal"s death that Morridin is name Nae' Blis. So it very likel could have been one of the Forsaken reincarnated, as they can only channel with the TP. It could have been someone else besides the Forsaken, whoever it was, he wanted to mae sure that Sammeal was dead before Rand was, becasue he can kill Rand with the True Power whenver he wants. Also, why woukld the Nae' Blis fil one of his people, was Sammeal disobedient? He was acualy doing with the control of Illian. So i twas more than likelya Forsaken reincarnated trying to kill Sammeal to get him out of the way, or it could have been a regular Forsaken.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Possibly, but it could very likel have been Osan'gar(or whtever his name was).

 

Um, no.  Osan'gar was killed in WH, ch 35.  Rand sees the Wanderer's face in KoD ch 18.  Its pretty indisputably established that the Watcher (from ACoS ch 20 ) and the Wanderer (from ACoS ch 41) are both Moridin.

[Darkness Incarnated]

Moghedien: 'this young man [Moridin] had startling blue eyes and black hair, and was Very much of a size with Al'Thor.' Then (I think) she noticed the saa (sp).

Rand, when fighting Sammael, noticed the black hair and blue eyes, then added that he [Moridin] was easily as tall as Rand, rare except among the Aiel. This is from memory, so I'm sure some words are off, but the basic idea is that there are not two men who correspond to that description, only one, and his name is Moridin.

[Luckers]

Which leads us to a mildly interesting question.

 

Is it possible to tell the difference between someone using the One Power in inverted weaves, while hiding their ability to channel, and someone using the True Power.

 

Please understand, I am not disputing in any way that the Wanderer in Shadar Logoth is Moridin, or that Moridin was using the True Power.  That is, as Luckers says, well established by Rand's POV in KoD ch 18 (assuming one did not know it previously, which most of us did). I am simply asking a purely theoretical question.

 

Can anyone think of a way to tell the difference?

 

Yes, there is. Though to be perfectly clear, the potential One Power alternative of what was witnessed there is a reversion of weaves, not an inversion of weaves. For clarity;

 

Reversion: The process by which you hide your weaves as you weave them. Results in the sensation of channeling, as Verin, Cyndane and verious others show *more on this below--i didn't see Roberts later post at first, but i have addressed it :)*

 

Inversion: The process by which you hide your weaves after they are woven. This also results in the sensation of channeling, but only when they are woven, they can later be employed without that sensation of drawing on the power.

 

Given the situation; the specific and instinctive reaction to Mashadar, it seems unlikely that Moridin had the weave for Balefire inverted and prepared--as indeed Rand seems to percieve (not, it was Rand that realised it as the True Power, not Lews Therin, though it was Lews Therin's knowledge that allowed him to do so). Lacking the sensation of drawing on the power, nor any visible weaves, the True Power is the only remaining option.

 

Well, inverted weaves are tied off, aren't they

 

Inverted weaves are weaves hidden after they are woven. They can be inverted and tied off, but they can also be inverted and then maintained by the channeler, as Elayne shows in KoD.

 

"Reversed weaves" would indeed be the proper term for weaves that are concealed while they are being channeled, and is the term I should have used.  However, in the hypothetical situation I proposed, more than just reversing is being done.  Reversing is being done in combination with concealment of the ability to channel.  An excellent example of this is, as you point out, Verin's experience with Graendal at the cleansing.

 

Graendal was already embracing the Source when Verin first tried to shield her.  Yet Verin saw and sensed nothing.  It specifically says that "Verin could not see the weaves, but she knew when she was fighting off an attack on her life ..."  So, while Verin's knowledge that Graendal is channeling at her is not simply an assumption (Verin had the evidence of having her attempted shield rebound) it is indeed a deduction, rather than something she directly sensed.

 

It seems likely to me that reversion still causes the sensation of active channeling, even with the ability concealed. From Verin's scene you can see it; "The golden haired woman spun around and began channeling. Verin could not see the weaves, but she knew when she was fighting off an attack on her life ...".

 

Now, I admit that it is hardly conclusive, Verin could merely be seeing the effects of the weave. I draw your attention to the fact that Verin says 'she could not see the weaves, but she knew she was fighting off an attack on her life'. A curious turn of phrase. Verin 'knows' she was fighting off an attack on her life? If the attack were overt in the sense that she could see it, like a fireball, it seems a very strange thought for her to have. "Oh my, a fireball. Well, i guess that settles it. I am most certainly fighting off an attack on my life."

 

The combination of the fact that she specifically states when Graendal started channeling, and the following thought makes me believe that there is still the sensation of active channeling when reversing a weave with the ability hidden.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

The combination of the fact that she specifically states when Graendal started channeling, and the following thought makes me believe that there is still the sensation of active channeling when reversing a weave with the ability hidden.

 

I guess that is what I'm looking for: some evidence that something is felt even when reversed weaves are being used.  Because frankly, I read that passage very differently.  Once Verin knew that the shield didn't work, her POV internal statement that Graendal "spun around and began channeling" seems to be totally deductive.  It didn't say, Graendal spun and Verin felt her begin channeling.

 

I can both possibilities in that passage, however, and so I'm wondering aloud if there is anything more conclusive.  Because that one really does not seem to be conclusive, to me.

 

Again, I'm not disputing that Moridin used the True Power in Shadar Logoth.  The wierd connection that was formed is enough evidence of that, if more were needed.  I'm just exploring the theoretical question.

[Luckers]

I don't know. The statement that Graendal 'begun channeling' simply does not sound remotely deductive to me. And the following statement (of knowing that she was fighting off an attack on her life) sounds entirely too deductive to be based on any sort of conclusive evidence of an attack (again, my "Oh my, a fireball..." comment).

 

The combination simply make extremely unlikely, to my mind.

 

But, if you are asking for additional evidence, there is a potential, albeit incredibly weak, possibility in Cyndane's scene in the cleansing.

 

"Cyndane prepared a small present for her, a reversed web..." "The ball of fire darted from her hand, hopefully too small to be detected".

 

Now, this probably means detection by the ter'angreal, but i thought it might interest you.

 

Also, as i recall, Egwene felt Moghedian channel when she replaced her disguise in LoC, though she did not see the weaves. I don't have my edition of LoC on me though, so i can't be sure.

[RobertAlexWillis]

"Cyndane prepared a small present for her, a reversed web..." "The ball of fire darted from her hand, hopefully too small to be detected".

 

Now, this probably means detection by the ter'angreal, but i thought it might interest you.

 

Actually, I always thought that meant detection by eyeball.  Like Alivia wouldn't physically see the fireball coming.  Which would be the only way to detect a weave that could not be felt ...

 

I guess thats what both annoys and intrigues me here.  None of the examples we get are really conclusive.  I always read Verin's "thought" that Graendal was channeling as an example of very quick, very certain deduction, because Graendal was clearly embracing the source before she ever saw Verin, and Verin felt nothing, so why would Verin feel something when Graendal started channeling?  Feeling someone else channeling doesn't seem to be any different than feeling them just embrace the Source ... its only when you can see the weaves that you can tell the difference, and we know for a fact that Verin could not see the weaves.

[Luckers]

Actually, I always thought that meant detection by eyeball.  Like Alivia wouldn't physically see the fireball coming.  Which would be the only way to detect a weave that could not be felt ...

 

How often do you use the word detected to describe seeing something.

 

"Oh my, I detected a beautiful sunset the other day." "Oh my god, i just detected this guy getting hit by a car."

 

I won't repeat my opinion on Verin's comments--i mean, i get what your saying, i just disagree.

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL ... it may not be used that way often, but that IS what the word means.

 

And I get what your saying.  I'm not even sure I disagree, I'm just irritated that its not very clear.  Irritated and intrigued.

[drovja]

Possibly, but it could very likel have been Osan'gar(or whtever his name was).

When Rand encounters Moridin at Shadar Logoth, he already had a cadre of Asha'man, and I believe that one of them was Corlin Dashiva.  So it couldn't have been Osan'gar, because Rand would have recognized him.

 

EDIT:fixed quote