Can Moraine unweave a web?

[Charlz Guybon]

The Eye of the World, chapter 49, page 658

Mat: "What are we waiting for?"

 

Moraine: "For me to remove the last vestige of what I did here last night. The residues would have dissipated on their own in a day, but I will not take any risk I can avoid now."

 

It seemed from the Aes Sedai's reaction to Aviendha that they never do this, and it took quite a lot of practice for Aviendha to become proficient at it. It didn't seem that Moriane took that long to get rid of the residue of the light bending weave, but I imagine it's much simpler than a gateway to unweave. Still, did she teach this to herself or did she learn the skill from someone else? Or can we dismiss this as a mistake by RJ before he hammered down exactly how channeling worked?

[Guest cwestervelt]

I just read that passage not an hour ago.  The same thought occurred to me as well.  It certainly appears like Moiraine knows how to unravel a web.

[bcxanth]

I would say, from Moir's words at the time, that it's obvious she can. As for wher she learned, that's a very good question. Considering though that it something the AS know about, and even the Wonder Girls know of it, then the concept must be covered in Novice training at the very least. Moir seems to me like the kind of person to try and learn everything she can, no matter hor forbidden the Weave. After all, she knows Balefire.  And remember that just because the AS think it's incredibly difficult, the Wise Ones say that any woman who can pick out stitching can do it.  Likely it's very easy to do, but also easy to mes up. Some AS in the past probably messed up and caused trouble, either by killing/stilling herself or others. And so the AS decided to ban the practice because they're all a bunch of idiots.

[Gentled Ben]

A residue is not the same thing as a weave. The weave was already gone, she was removing the "last vestiges" of it, not unraveling it. Some channelers have the Talent of reading residues; you might remember just such a thing occurring after the Cleansing, when sisters went to Shadar Logoth and tried to discern what had occurred there based upon the residual vestiges of the weave used. That's what Moiraine is trying to prevent. She's simply sweeping away all traces of any channeling having occurred there, but her Illusion, her light bending weave, had already been released by her. There was nothing still woven to be unravelled. What she was doing was like spraying air freshener before leaving the bathroom, to use a crude analogy.  :P

[Guest cwestervelt]

When Aviendha caused all the Aes Sedai to have kittens by unweaving her Gateway, she specifically said she did it because simply releasing it would have left a residue.  None of the Aes Sedai said there were other, safer ways to do it.  Unweaving appears to be the only way to prevent residue.

[Gentled Ben]

But she doesn't say that she's preventing it, she says that she's removing it.

[inkubate]

so in essence, no she did not unravel a weave, but does she know how? that's another question...

[bcxanth]

But she doesn't say that she's preventing it, she says that she's removing it.

You're missing the point.  Moir's stated goal in what she did on that hilltop was to make it so that there would be no residues left behind that could be traced. Compare that to what Avi said, that she was unraveling the weave so that no residue would be left behind. Now add to that the AS throwing a fit about what Avi was doing, and doing their best to convince her she must never do it again even after she explained why, and you'd think if there was any other way to do it the AS would have said something then. So, if there's no other known way to keep a residue from being left behind, other then unraveling the weave, then that must be what Moir was doing.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Compare that to what Avi said, that she was unraveling the weave so that no residue would be left behind.

 

Yes.  Lets compare.

 

You're assuming that because Moiraine and Aviendha had the same goal, ie, leaving no residues behind, that they must have used the same method.  Thats ridiculous.

 

Unraveling a weave means taking it apart while it is still functioning, so as to leave no residue.

 

Eliminating residues means that the weave has already dissipated on its own.  That is what creates residues.  Therefore, it is impossible that eliminating residue and preventing residue are the same thing.

 

Therefore, Moiraine was not unweaving.  She was doing something to deal with residues that were already there.

 

As to whether or not Moiraine knew how ... she probably did, or at least, would have recognized it instantly.  It is not unknown to the Tower.  When Aviendha did it in TPoD ch 2 the Aes Sedai present knew immediately what she was doing.  The Aes Sedai simply regard it as incredibly dangerous, which it is.  The Aiel regard personal danger in a way very different from the way Aes Sedai view it, so they managed to develop the skill somewhat.  Aviendha herself is apparently very talented at it, possibly even to the point of being Talented, but she is still very nervous and concentrating very hard when she does it.  And of course, we all know how Elayne's first attempt turned out.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Sorry Robert, but you are missing the point too.

 

When Aviendha unwove her Gateway, she specifically said why she did it.  The Aes Sedai had a conniption fit about how dangerous that was to do.  They didn't argue that there was a safe way to get rid of the residue.  They argued that getting rid of the residue was unneccessary because of how rare the Talent was.  When Aviendha mentions having the Talent herself and questions them about wanting to take the chance no Damane does, they didn't have a response.  Given their desire to see Aviendha to the Tower for training, do you honestly think that, if there was another way to prevent/remove residue, they wouldn't have told her?  They would have jumped to the chance to show how Aes Sedai are better than Wilders by saying something to the extent of, well, if you must get rid of the residue, here is what you do.

 

And yes, I understand what people are seeing as a difference in the behavior from the Gateway sort of wavering and going away and Moiraines bending of light just ending and the hilltop simply reappearing.  I noted it myself at the time.  I don't see that as an issue myself.  What Moiraine did was a bending of physical light, once the weave was inadequate to maintain it, the physical effects no longer held.  Rand was rather preoccuppied at the time, what with being in the Blight for the first time and all, so he likely wouldn't have noticed if there was a flicker or to.  If he did, we would have likely written it off another trick of being in the Blight like he did with the first movements of the trees.  Even if there wasn't a gradual transition, that doesn't mean the Weaves were completely gone yet.  Rand couldn't see anything Moiraine did, and Egwene and Nynaeve would have had no idea what was going on.

[Gentled Ben]

it might have just been an issue of time, cwestervelt. Moiraine's method appears to be slow, as indicated by Mat's complaint. Also, unweaving a Gateway isn't likely the kind of thing you want to stop in the middle of. Once Aviendha began, she was surely committed to finish it, so even if there was a better/ lousier/different way, it would do little good to point it out once she's already begun to unravel the weave, as now, she must see the task through to completion for good or ill. The Aes Sedai around her don't seem to spend their time trying to impress her with weaves, anyway. It's not like they're going, "Look! Can Wise Ones do this? How about this? Betcha can't do this...now you want to train with  us, don't you?" I see your point, though. I just think that, as Robert pointed out, it's more the tenses of the verbs used that indicate that Moiraine is not unravelling the weave.

[inkubate]

also, i think that due to the nature of a Gateway, the onlt sure fire way to make sure there are no residue left over on either side is to unravel it, it's possible that the AS saw this and decided not to comment...

[Jonn]

Light bending is a relatively small weave compared to making a Gateway. The more complex and powerful the weave, it can be assumed that there is more residue to dissipate in the process of weave decay.

 

You can mark the difference between cleaning up the mess after lighting a string of firecrackers compared to cleaning up the mess caused by detonating a bomb.

 

The effects of each explosion are different and so is the physical evidence of what caused the effect.

 

We can also rightly assume that cleaning up residues is wholly different from unravelling a weave.

 

Unravelling a weave is used to prevent any evidence of the actual weave and how it was made rather than letting the weave naturally decay and dissipate.

 

What Moiraine did sounds more like she is concealing the evidence of something she has already completed by sweeping away the "vestiges" of the leftover residues. How she does this remains unexplained. Does she hide the residues or is there a way to speed up the dissipation similar to breaking up fog using a form of heat control?

[Gentled Ben]

The latter suggestion is what I'm guessing. I sorta picture her scrubbing at the remnants of the weave with flows of Spirit or something, like erasing a sentence written in pencil. Of course, what I picture and what she's doing may bear no relation to one another whatsoever.  :P

[bcxanth]

Here's the problem though. We actually have no proof that there's any way to actually removie a residue outside of unraveling the weave. Weave never seen anyone mention a method like that, and I truly believe that given the arrogance of AS that they would have pointed out such a method to Avi if there was one, even if they felt in the circumstances her way was best, or that it was too late for her to do anything else. I just think that the simplest explanation, and so therefore the most likely, is that Moir unraveled the weaves she had tied off in the night, instead of just untie them and let them disappate.

[Albert]

The reason for why Aviendha didn't just "sweep" away the residue is quite simple.

You make a gateway from Point A to Point B, go through it, then close the weave, as is nessacery before removing the residue. Here's the problem: once you're standing on Point B, you can't reach back to Point A and remove the residue there, which is what Aviendha wanted! So she did the only thing that would work without leaving residue, which was to unravel it.

[bcxanth]

But like I said, regardless of how reasonable her actions may have been because of that, I don't see people as arrogant as the AS not at least mentioning another way.  Also, Avi doesn't say that she knows there's another way, but unravelling is the only way to keep it from being read at both ends. She just says that it's the way to keep the residues from being left behind.  It still seems to me that y'all are trying to make things more complicated by inventing yet another possible weave for Moir, instead of just taking the simple explanation. And like is said, all things being equal, the simplest explanation is ussually the correct one.

[Gentled Ben]

Moiraine does not say that she is unraveling her weave, nor does she say that she is preventing residues. Instead, she says she is removing them, which means they must already be there, which means she cannot be unraveling the weave, as that would prevent residues. That is simple.  :)

 

The Aes Sedai don't mention another way, because for the reason Albert just stated, there is no other way to remove all the residue from a gateway. Instead, they suggest that the need isn't great enough to justify the risk, the percentage of women capable of deciphering the residues of that weave surely being very small.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

I'm pretty sure Moiraine was unraveling. Let's not get so caught up on her exact wording. I don't think she was trying to be technical. And I agree that the AS would have told Aviendha if there was another way to eliminate that residue. There is always the chance Moiraine had her own special technique, but it doesn't seem likely that this is one trick she would keep secret. Plus, she is the kind of gal who will do what she has to without making a big fuss.

[Gentled Ben]

I'm pretty sure Moiraine was unraveling. Let's not get so caught up on her exact wording. I don't think she was trying to be technical.

Yes, let's not bother with what the book actually says if it conflicts with our wishes. <_<

There is always the chance Moiraine had her own special technique, but it doesn't seem likely that this is one trick she would keep secret.

It doesn't have to be her own special technique; it may well be an infrequently used weave. She doesn't have to keep it secret in order not to mention it beforehand. She says, after all, that the residues would dissipate on their own without her efforts, so it's not like it's the most commonly useful weave that she knows, and why wouldn't she keep it to herself, anyway? Since when did she begin delineating her weaving abilities and limitations to Mat? Why should she start now, with this weave?

 

She uses lots of weaves without announcing beforehand what they are. She's not a D&D character with a stat sheet of "Weaves this Channeler Knows" that we can refer to before reading a story involving her; we learn her abilities as they are revealed to us in the story itself. With that in mind, each weave she reveals to us could have been considered "secret" prior to her unleashing it.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

I'm pretty sure Moiraine was unraveling. Let's not get so caught up on her exact wording. I don't think she was trying to be technical.

Yes, let's not bother with what the book actually says if it conflicts with our wishes. <_<

 

What I meant was that her explanation to Mat need not be all technical and accurate on the specifics of whether she was erasing residue or unraveling so there would be no residue. The outcome is the same and Moiraine could easily have meant that.

 

There is always the chance Moiraine had her own special technique, but it doesn't seem likely that this is one trick she would keep secret.

It doesn't have to be her own special technique; it may well be an infrequently used weave. She doesn't have to keep it secret in order not to mention it beforehand. She says, after all, that the residues would dissipate on their own without her efforts, so it's not like it's the most commonly useful weave that she knows, and why wouldn't she keep it to herself, anyway? Since when did she begin delineating her weaving abilities and limitations to Mat? Why should she start now, with this weave?

 

She uses lots of weaves without announcing beforehand what they are. She's not a D&D character with a stat sheet of "Weaves this Channeler Knows" that we can refer to before reading a story involving her; we learn her abilities as they are revealed to us in the story itself. With that in mind, each weave she reveals to us could have been considered "secret" prior to her unleashing it.

 

I was referring to keeping it secret from other Aes Sedai. If they knew some better way to not leave behind weave residue, I'm betting they would have told Aviendha when she unraveled the gateway.

[RobertAlexWillis]

When Aviendha unwove her Gateway, she specifically said why she did it.  The Aes Sedai had a conniption fit about how dangerous that was to do.  They didn't argue that there was a safe way to get rid of the residue.  They argued that getting rid of the residue was unneccessary because of how rare the Talent was.  When Aviendha mentions having the Talent herself and questions them about wanting to take the chance no Damane does, they didn't have a response.  Given their desire to see Aviendha to the Tower for training, do you honestly think that, if there was another way to prevent/remove residue, they wouldn't have told her?  They would have jumped to the chance to show how Aes Sedai are better than Wilders by saying something to the extent of, well, if you must get rid of the residue, here is what you do.

 

Number one, you're assuming that the Aes Sedai present there knew Moiraine's method for removing residues.  We have no evidence of that, as we've seen no other Aes Sedai clean up after herself in that way.  Merilille and the others certainly did not bring it up, if they knew, as you point out.  All they pointed out is the danger, and the small chance that such prevention would be needed. (Which would quite neatly explain why few Aes Sedai know Moiraine's method, if that is the case: they don't usually need to clean up after themselves.  They haven't been really fighting Shadow channelers for centuries.)

 

Number two, as has been pointed out by others, a method like Moiraine's used for eliminating residues in a particular place, after the weave has dissipated or been cut, would not work on the weaves for a gateway, or at least, that method wouldn't clean up both ends.  Since it was the end in Ebou Dar that was the potential problem, sharing Moiraine's method (even if they knew it) would be pointless in that situation.

 

When Moiraine channels to remove the residues of what she DID (past tense) the night before in TEoTW ch 49, she is clearly using a separate weave that is designed to eliminate residues in a specific location.  It was not Unweaving.

 

As for issues with her wording ... Moiraine, like all Aes Sedai, is very careful with what she says.  Removing the traces of something is not the same as undoing it.  And if she was undoing it, rather than removing the traces of it, there was no reason for her not to say so.  Its not like anyone there knew at the time how dangerous unweaving is.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Let me get this straight.  You are trying to claim that, even though Moiraine admits the residue would not last long she wants to make sure nothing is left behind when they leave.  So she uses another Weave to get rid of the residue left by the first Weave.  However, that Weave would then leave residue its own residue.  So what did she do, a third Weaving to get rid of the residue left by the second Weave?  At some point she would just have had to give up and let the residue dissipate on its own.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You are trying to claim that, even though Moiraine admits the residue would not last long she wants to make sure nothing is left behind when they leave.  So she uses another Weave to get rid of the residue left by the first Weave.  However, that Weave would then leave residue its own residue.

 

cwestervelt ... a weave designed to eliminate residue would be designed to eliminate its own residue, as well.  Please try to be serious, or let us know when you're joking.

 

I notice that you neatly avoided all the other objections I raised.

[Gentled Ben]

You are trying to claim that, even though Moiraine admits the residue would not last long she wants to make sure nothing is left behind when they leave.  So she uses another Weave to get rid of the residue left by the first Weave.

No, according to the wording in the book, Moiraine is making that claim; we're simply reporting again and again what is clearly stated in the book. If it's actually a weave, then yeah, I guess that's how it works, strange as it may seem.

 

I was referring to keeping it secret from other Aes Sedai. If they knew some better way to not leave behind weave residue, I'm betting they would have told Aviendha when she unraveled the gateway.

Oh. Well, for the reasons stated previously, namely that there is no other way to remove the residue in Ebou Dar from where they stood, that might be a losing bet. It could be a Blue Ajah secret weave like that insect plague she uses on Lan in New Spring was, for all we know, or every Accepted could know it and it's simply never mentioned.