The Mysteries of Cyndane

[lou]

i actually agree with you on this, and it is suiane and leane's comments that gave me the impression that they were less than half in strength of the power than before the stilling.

of course, in the context of cyndane, i believe that cyndane was stilled in her new incarnation, then healed to deliberately limit her power, punishment by ish who is a cruel master. it seems like something ish would do, like the mindtraps.....very cruel.

i have absolutely no evidence for this theory except that by now the forsaken know that nynaeve healed logain to full strength and suiane and leane to less than half. maybe the forsaken reasoned it out.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Siuan failed to lift Gareth with the Power.  Sure, lifting things is considered to be one of the hardest things they can do.  Suian used to be able to do it without even thinking, and while splitting her flows several ways.  If she only lost a little ability, she should still be able to lift things.  It would just require more effort and concentration.  Instead, putting everything she has into trying doesn't even budge him.  Not only did she fail to move him in the least, Gareth was completely unaware she attempted to do anyting beyond preventing him from walking.

 

Then there is Delana's assessment of Siuan's strength.  She doesn't just see Suian as having lost a little of her ability.  She sees Suian as having lost a lot of her ability.  Delana is now "much stronger" than Suian whereas Suian used to be the stronger of the two.

Delana first: where's your quote to specify that she's only referring to Suian's loss of strength in the OP?

 

Before that, you're saying I'm wrong in that there's no text that provides the mechanics of lifting objects with the power. Quote it for us.

She was stronger than Siuan, much stronger.  The margin had always gone the other way;

 

She isn't saying she "ranks much higher" than Suian, she is saying she is "much stronger."  The rest just indicates that, had Suian not been stronger, Delana wouldn't have followed her lead.  Just like she wouldn't follow Suian's lead now.

 

Next time, make an please make an effort to read the previous page.  Or better yet, read the whole chapter from the book.  Then think about what you've just read and how ridiculous it sounds trying to say Suian and Leane haven't lost much strength.  I'm not going to do it for you again.

 

Edit:  Somewhow the wrong passages go into the quotes

[Guest cwestervelt]

Before that, you're saying I'm wrong in that there's no text that provides the mechanics of lifting objects with the power. Quote it for us.

 

It appears my last post didn't address Cybertrolloc's apparent complaint that I didn't provide any quotes or other evidence concerning my claim that lifting something is difficult.  It really would be easier if people would actually read Lord of Chaos Chapter 30, To Heal Again.  I tried suggesting that earlier, hoping they would take a hint.  Everything is right there.

 

It was impossible.  True, the simple act of picking something up was one of the hardest in channeling, but she had been able to lift nearly three times her own weight.

Lord of Chaos Chapter 30:  To Heal Again, Page 426.  First US Printing.

 

Now, unless Gareth is overweight or Suian is underweight, which doesn't fit with how either of them are described, he doesn't even weigh twice as much as she does.  Using our units of measurement, if she is 5' 0" tall (average is 5' 3.8" (http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/growthcharts2/f/avg_ht_female.htm), and he is 6' 0" tall (average is 5' 9.2" http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/growthcharts2/f/avg_ht_male.htm), her minimum healthy weight (102 pounds) and his maximum healthy weight (184 pounds) does not allow for that much variance.  (http://www.weightwatchers.com/health/asm/calc_healthyweight.aspx)  Since the characters in the books are considered human, our guidelines should be the same as theirs.  Realistically, if both of them are healthy, which they appear to be, he isn't going to weight more than one and a half times as much as she does.  That means she cannot manage to lift even half of what she could before being stilled.  We don't just have an unambiguous statement from Leane that they are less than half the strength they were before being stilled, we have a demonstration from Siuan proving that she is less than half the strength she was before being stilled.

[Cybertrolloc]

Sorry I didn't make it clear enough.

 

Where in the text is it made clear that lifting something with the power is directly proportional to strength? (Note that Bryne is described as stocky, if he's wearing armor I'd think 250lbs or heavier is reasonable.)

 

Is it clear that Delana is also not referring to Suian's fall from being Amrylin to a lower tier AS? I.e. where is the proof that she is referring mostly to Suian's loss of strength?

[Okvoz al-Vrag]

cwestervelt, based on the quotes you  provided, I'd have to agree that Leane believes she and Suian are less than "half of what they were (before stilling)."  We all seem to acknowledge it's imporatant to distinguish when a character is talking about strenth versus standing. I'll have to re-read a lot of passages with that front of mind.

 

To that point, I recall Suian complaining that some of the Sisters treat her and Leane as if they had just been raised to the shawl, a percetion that would have greatly affected their standing. Strength is only one factor in determining standing; the others are the length of time spent as novice/accepted and any offices held (Sitter, Ajah head, Keeper, and Amyrlin). regardless of how much strength they lost, any Sister choosing to see them as newly raised would assume a huge advantage over them vis-a-vis their days as Amyrlin/Keeper.

 

Coming back to the stated thread topic:  :)

The fact that Cyndane doesn't seem to have dropped nearly as much in proportional strength might indicate that her diminishment isn't related to being stilled and healed. Does anyone recall an example of stilling/healing that is not either complete (e.g., Logain) or very limited (e.g., Suian and Leane)? This is why I threw out two other possiblities: an angreal or the cour'souvra.  Perhaps the beter minds here can think of others.

 

Her reincarnation as Cyndane, as with the 'Gars and Moridin, seems likely connected with her demise as Lanfear.  Whether this was at her own hands or Moirane's or the Finn's will (hopefully) be answered in AMoL. Based on the others, although they are all males, we have nothing to suggest any connection between loss of strength and reincarnation.

[Albert]

There is a practical reason for the minimum strength requirement.  If an Aes Sedai isn't strong enough in the Power, she won't pass the Test.  I don't think we ever get told what happens to you if you fail.  If I recall correctly, it was another of those things Aes Sedai don't like to talk about.  Which tends to mean you either died or had the ability burned out of you.  The cutoff point is there for the protection of the person undergoing the Test.  Maybe it hasn't occurred to everyone yet, but Suian and Leane already passed the Test.  The did so about 20 years prior to the current events.  They aren't being made to take it again.  In other words, it doesn't matter if they are now below the cutoff point because they were above it the only time it mattered.

 

That would make sense, if they were the weakest of all the Aes Sedai. As I think Luckers posted earlier, they aren't. Since they are stronger then some of the AS means that they are over the limit. Which means they must have been at around 75-80% strength before stilling.

 

Try again.

 

Edit:

 

Then there is the unarguable statement from Leane that they are less than 1/2 as strong as they were before. 

 

Yeah... Unarguable... Right.

 

Since you are so sure of this, you actually believe that Leane had around 75% strength, making her a lot stronger then Egwene or Elayne pre-stilling, DESPITE several mentions in the book? She might even rival Nynaeve at that. Wow, weren't they modest.

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

Yeah... Unarguable... Right.

 

Since you are so sure of this, you actually believe that Leane had around 75% strength, making her a lot stronger then Egwene or Elayne pre-stilling, DESPITE several mentions in the book? She might even rival Nynaeve at that. Wow, weren't they modest.

 

 

Unless you want to change how the English language and the simplist form of logic work (a > b and b > c then a > c, a < b and b < c then a < c, if half of the pie is more than your piece of the pie your piece must be less than half of the pie) then, yes the statement is unarguable.  Doing so only makes you, Luckers, Cybertrolloc and others like you look silly.  Unfortunately, it is nearly impossible for others to make examples simple enough for you to understand without sounding demeaning.

 

That said, what the heck do Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve have to do with how strong Siuan and Leanne are or were.  Were you thinking I was placing Suian at 50 points on a power graph from 0 to 100?  Well, I wasn't.  If I was placing her on such a scale I would have indicated as much.  I chose a number purely for illustrative purposes.  Fifty just happened to be a nice arbitrary number that worked good for illustrative purposes.  It doesn't have any correlation to true ability except to provide a baseline for talking about Sisters that were weaker than Suian before she was stilled.  Using that baseline, anyone who is less than 50% of that ability would have a 25 and that, based on Leane's statements, covers most of those in Salidar.  The point of the illustration was that, since Suian lost more than half her strength she can only rank at a 24 or lower.  For the people that want it to be a static amount rather than percentage lost, that results in 50 (original) - 24 (max current) = 26 (difference).  That means that taking an average Salidar sister at 25 reducing her by 26 leaves you with a -1.  An inability to even light a candle.  Maybe being able to bask in the glory of Saidin would be enough, but I really don't think so.  And I don't think it is logical to assume a method of Healing would be so ineffective that it rendered half the people it was used on worthless.  A percentage loss of ability just fits and makes sense.  Then again, I'm not trying to reconcile that with an errant belief that Cyndane is weaker because she was stilled.

 

Sorry I didn't make it clear enough.

 

Where in the text is it made clear that lifting something with the power is directly proportional to strength? (Note that Bryne is described as stocky, if he's wearing armor I'd think 250lbs or heavier is reasonable.)

 

Is it clear that Delana is also not referring to Suian's fall from being Amrylin to a lower tier AS? I.e. where is the proof that she is referring mostly to Suian's loss of strength?

 

Two hundred and fifty pounds or heavier is not something that can be called a reasonable assumption.  For starters, unlike characters in a D&D game important people don't wear that much armor every hour of every day.  They only wear it when the occasion calls for it.  Even Agelmar didn't do that, and we was less than a day's ride from the Blight and under constant threat of Trolloc raids.  It is unlikely that Gareth was wearing any, but if it was, he would have worn the lightest he had available.  The occasion just didn't call for it and he's smart enough to realize that, however much armor he wears, it isn't going to protect him from any dangers awaiting him in Salidar.

 

You also have a problem with the fact that I didn't consider Gareth to be stocky.  Well, let me see if I can resolve that for you.  I'm sure its a futile effort as you've already made up your mind, I will try any way.  Saying he is stocky isn't the same as saying he is overweight.  It just means he is sturdily built or thick set.  As a result, he likely would not weigh that much more than the 184 pound maximum healthy limit I mentioned.  Let's say he ways 190 pounds then.  Unfortunately, that overlooks the fact that referring to someone as stocky generally implies he is on the short side.  He certainly wouldn't be described as stocky if he was an above average 6' 0" tall.  He should be below average height.  Let's just make him a little shorter at make him 5' 8" then.  But at that height him weighing 190 pounds really must be too much.  Back to the chart then.  The maximum recommended weight at 5' 8" would be 164 lbs.  Call it 170 lbs to make him just a tad heavier set.  What do you know, that is still less than the 184 lbs maximum recommended I mentioned earlier.

 

Now for Delana: 

She was stronger than Siuan, much stronger. The margin had always gone the other way; Siuan had taken the lead when they were novices, even before they were Accepted.

 

Did you happen to notice the semi colon between the two parts of her thought?  It is hard to tell, but I made it bold hoping it would stand out more.  Prior to the semi colon, we have "She was stronger than Siuan, much stronger.  The margin had always gone the other way."  After the semi colon we have "Siuan had taken the lead when they were novices, even before they were Accepted."

 

That semi colon is very important as it tells you the first part of the sentence is the basis for making the second part.  First she tells us that she is much stronger than Siuan.  When have we seen an Aes Sedai refer to strength in that way and not be talking about strength in the Power.  I can't think of any that wouldn't have been qualified by, strength of will or physical strength.  Then she tells is it always was the other way around.  Again, since there is nothing to change the context of her thoughts, she is talking about strength in the Power.  Then we get that ever so important semi colon.  The one that correlates the remainder of the statement to the first part.  Thus, it is not until she starts talking about how Suian always took the lead that she is talking about social standing.  Which, because of the semi colon, is directly attributed to the fact that Suian was always the stronger in the Power.

[Albert]

Doesn't matter that your numbers weren't put on a scale from 0-100. If the cut limit is 36,2%, and they are over it as evidence by them being stronger then other AS, then they would have to had been at LEAST 72,4, more like 75% before stilling. If they lost half their strength, that is. Since they obviously wasn't that strong before, she did not mean they lost over half their original strength.

It's quite simple really. Once you use your brain that is. Since you seem to refuse to do that cwewtervelt, or don't  have one, I assume you'll ignore this post. Or just pick out one part that you can vaguely try to counter. I tried making it really simple for you so you couldn't, but hey, you managed to argue entire 7 pages with your bad interpretation of her words so maybe you can pull it off. We'll see I guess.

[Luckers]

Luckers, I think I have a better understanding of your ideas after reading this, but I disagree that the matter has been clearly settled.  I too interpret Leane's comments as some others do, that she less than 1/2 her original strength in the power - that of course has put her almost at the bottom of her social standing with other Aes Sedai. 

 

At this point, I think it is just a matter that some of us disagree. 

 

You mistake me. I have no problems if you disagree, its ignoring the arguments against your position i find problematic.

 

There is nothing ambiguous in those quotes.  There is no double speak in those quotes.  What you are doing is attempting to change the way the English language is read and interpreted.  Sorry, but doing so doesn't work.  In the process, your argument has reached the realms of abject stupidity and blind arrogance.  Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm starting to loose patience.  Taking her to two thirds or even half of what they were, in other words pre-stilling, can only be done if they are less than half of that strength now.  She's not hoping to halve they difference between what she is now and what she was.  She is simply hoping to get to the half way point of what she used to be.

 

Firstly, i wish to chortle at the first four sentences. As to the fifth... I'm surprised cwestervelt... after the number of these silly little fights we've had, i would have thought that you realised that your loss of patience doesn't overly disconcert me.

 

What amuses me most, however, is how you don't read what i say. So, i wont respond to this, other than to tell you to re-read what i said about the difference between where they stand now, and what they were.

 

If she was a 50 she is now around 20.  Probably less.  Certainly less than 25.  Getting back to that 25 would leave her at about average in Salidar.  While I'm at it, I might as well note that the reason a percentage of ability being lost makes more sense is that, if it is a set amount, the average Sister in Salidar, if stilled and healed lost the 30+ or so points that Siuan lost, wouldn't be able to light a candle with what ability they had left.  They would be in negative power numbers.

 

Umm... what?

 

You can read, right? If not, i feel a real bastard for being so cold to you.

 

Aes Sedai cut off strength 36.2.

 

Siuan stronger than Aes Sedai cut of strength.

 

Severed channelers lose maybe 10 points.

 

All of this has been said before, if you wish to actually debate that, im more than willing, but your unsupported catagoric statements bore me.

 

Well, I don't know that any "lowest strength limit for Aes Sedaihood" precedent would stand in the case of Siuan and Leane. No one had ever been stilled and rehealed before, so that may trump any usual strength requirement. They are already trained and knowledgeable, and as far as the other AS know, they are still bound by the oath rod. That may allow them to become AS again, even if they are not strong enough to become AS under the regular Tower standards.

 

RJ stated the 36.2 thing in his blog. But aside from which we know that Siuan and Leane stand above that limit because thanks to Egwene in CoT we know of at least six Aes Sedai that are weaker than Siuan.

 

There is a practical reason for the minimum strength requirement.  If an Aes Sedai isn't strong enough in the Power, she won't pass the Test.  I don't think we ever get told what happens to you if you fail.  If I recall correctly, it was another of those things Aes Sedai don't like to talk about.  Which tends to mean you either died or had the ability burned out of you.  The cutoff point is there for the protection of the person undergoing the Test.  Maybe it hasn't occurred to everyone yet, but Suian and Leane already passed the Test.  The did so about 20 years prior to the current events.  They aren't being made to take it again.  In other words, it doesn't matter if they are now below the cutoff point because they were above it the only time it mattered.

 

You see, this is why i accuse you of being illeterate.

 

We have encountered SIX Aes Sedai weaker than Siuan. Siuan is above ther cutoff strength. I have said this eight times.

 

Siuan failed to lift Gareth with the Power.  Sure, lifting things is considered to be one of the hardest things they can do.  Suian used to be able to do it without even thinking, and while splitting her flows several ways.  If she only lost a little ability, she should still be able to lift things.  It would just require more effort and concentration.  Instead, putting everything she has into trying doesn't even budge him.  Not only did she fail to move him in the least, Gareth was completely unaware she attempted to do anyting beyond preventing him from walking.

 

Conjecture, and absurd conjecture at that. We know that lifting things is a function of laws beyond strength since women can exceed men in this.

 

All that Siuan's inability to lift Bryne shows is that she was weaker, and that because of that weakness she was unable to do 'one of the hardest things to do in channeling'.

 

Forgive me, but we knew that anyway.

 

Then there is Delana's assessment of Siuan's strength.  She doesn't just see Suian as having lost a little of her ability.  She sees Suian as having lost a lot of her ability.  Delana is now "much stronger" than Suian whereas Suian used to be the stronger of the two.

 

She was judging her within the Aes Sedai range. An absurdly limited range, as you well know. They exclude anyone weaker than 36.2 and havn't found anyone of real strength since Cadsuane and Meilyn.

 

Essentially what im saying is that this is a subjective judgement within an absurdly limited range... or do you have some evidence that its not. If so, please do show us.

 

Then there is the unarguable statement from Leane that they are less than 1/2 as strong as they were before.  If, by a second Healing, they hope to reach a level of strength that is half of what they originally possessed, then they must be less than 1/2 of their original strength.  If they have anything more than 49.999999% of there original strenght, going to 1/2 their original strength would either leave them where they are now, or reduce their strength further.  That should be evident to everyone.  If people want to persist in redefining the English language, I can't help them.  Pity them for their desperation yes, help them no.

 

*sigh*. Again, Leane and Siuan speak of regaining half the difference between their current strength and there old strength. More specifically, they actually speak of regaining strength in order to regain social status. Beyond that though we have since seen them compared to Aes Sedai as being stronger which makes is impossible that they are below half their previous strength, which would take them out of the range of the Aes Sedai system... i honestly don't know how many times i have to say that.

 

She isn't saying she "ranks much higher" than Suian, she is saying she is "much stronger."  The rest just indicates that, had Suian not been stronger, Delana wouldn't have followed her lead.  Just like she wouldn't follow Suian's lead now.

 

*sigh* She was speaking within the range of the Aes Sedai strengths. */sigh*

 

Next time, make an please make an effort to read the previous page.  Or better yet, read the whole chapter from the book.  Then think about what you've just read and how ridiculous it sounds trying to say Suian and Leane haven't lost much strength.  I'm not going to do it for you again.

 

Oh, its ok puppy. Even when you do it it has no effect, so trust me when i say we wont cry from the lack.

 

That said, what the heck do Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve have to do with how strong Siuan and Leanne are or were.  Were you thinking I was placing Suian at 50 points on a power graph from 0 to 100?  Well, I wasn't.  If I was placing her on such a scale I would have indicated as much.  I chose a number purely for illustrative purposes.  Fifty just happened to be a nice arbitrary number that worked good for illustrative purposes.  It doesn't have any correlation to true ability except to provide a baseline for talking about Sisters that were weaker than Suian before she was stilled.  Using that baseline, anyone who is less than 50% of that ability would have a 25 and that, based on Leane's statements, covers most of those in Salidar.  The point of the illustration was that, since Suian lost more than half her strength she can only rank at a 24 or lower.  For the people that want it to be a static amount rather than percentage lost, that results in 50 (original) - 24 (max current) = 26 (difference).  That means that taking an average Salidar sister at 25 reducing her by 26 leaves you with a -1.  An inability to even light a candle.  Maybe being able to bask in the glory of Saidin would be enough, but I really don't think so.  And I don't think it is logical to assume a method of Healing would be so ineffective that it rendered half the people it was used on worthless.  A percentage loss of ability just fits and makes sense.  Then again, I'm not trying to reconcile that with an errant belief that Cyndane is weaker because she was stilled.

 

You know the people above that seem to be reacting to every one of your comments with disdain and amusement?

 

To help you stop that, i suggest you read the posts above. It would help you in your bid to not look like an idiot.

 

[Majsju]

Maybe it's been posted already, but I'm too lazy to read every single post that thoroughly. I would like to see a link to where RJ says anything about the cut-off point for Aes Sedai being 36%. Maybe I'm getting old, but I can not recall having ever read anything even remotely related to such a statement.

 

Link, bitte.

[Luckers]

It's in the Pre Kod blogs.

 

Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5%.

 

So i was wrong, it'd be 38.5. Sorry, i was running off memory.

[Cybertrolloc]

If you quoted the book a few pages ago... ;) Decent evidence from Delana, we've no reason to suspect her channeler power meter is out of whack or anything, that's the kind of judgement any Aes Sedai should be able to make.

 

Two hundred and fifty pounds or heavier is not something that can be called a reasonable assumption.  For starters, unlike characters in a D&D game important people don't wear that much armor every hour of every day.  They only wear it when the occasion calls for it.  Even Agelmar didn't do that, and we was less than a day's ride from the Blight and under constant threat of Trolloc raids.  It is unlikely that Gareth was wearing any, but if it was, he would have worn the lightest he had available.  The occasion just didn't call for it and he's smart enough to realize that, however much armor he wears, it isn't going to protect him from any dangers awaiting him in Salidar.

 

You also have a problem with the fact that I didn't consider Gareth to be stocky.  Well, let me see if I can resolve that for you.  I'm sure its a futile effort as you've already made up your mind, I will try any way.  Saying he is stocky isn't the same as saying he is overweight.  It just means he is sturdily built or thick set.  As a result, he likely would not weigh that much more than the 184 pound maximum healthy limit I mentioned.  Let's say he ways 190 pounds then.  Unfortunately, that overlooks the fact that referring to someone as stocky generally implies he is on the short side.  He certainly wouldn't be described as stocky if he was an above average 6' 0" tall.  He should be below average height.  Let's just make him a little shorter at make him 5' 8" then.  But at that height him weighing 190 pounds really must be too much.  Back to the chart then.  The maximum recommended weight at 5' 8" would be 164 lbs.  Call it 170 lbs to make him just a tad heavier set.  What do you know, that is still less than the 184 lbs maximum recommended I mentioned earlier.

Average weights for us don't matter, only insofar as RJ is aware of them and uses them. By those numbers I'm overweight at 5' 10" and 170...and I'm neither fat nor mesomorphic. You've seen pictures of RJ and family on his blog? He or his cousin/in law pictured aren't exactly slim (depends on the camera used, I'd guess it'd be pretty good quality). When RJ describes a stocky guy around 6 foot wearing a breast plate, I wouldn't go below 225lbs.

 

In WoT they don't have carbon fiber, ceramics (ballistics, Heartstone notwithstanding) or Kevlar. Armor is made of steel, bronze, etc...those aren't light if they're to provide any more protection than say... (and that'd still be about 15 pounds, I don't think RJ does bikini-mail). I could see Brynn going for something like , but I doubt it's going to weigh in at less than 25 lbs.

[Majsju]

It's in the Pre Kod blogs.

 

Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5%.

 

So i was wrong, it'd be 38.5. Sorry, i was running off memory.

 

Oh, you mean that quote...

 

Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bellcurve. I'll leave the maths to you for an idle moment. The question doesn't really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bellcurve. Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%. Again, the maths are all yours. Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I've said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

 

How many of all the female channelers in the world who could test for, and successfully achieve the shawl. In a bell curve...

 

Ie, the cut-off point is Not 37.5% power points.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You know, I had written a post to respond to Albert but I see that Luckers has already responded again.  Now, if I bother posting anything, Luckers will simply disregard it with more accusations of not reading his replies.

 

Well Luckers, I do read you replies.  And I read Cybertrolloc's replies.  And I read Albert's replies.  And you know what?  Your premise, that Suian didn't lose much strength, is completely unsupported by the books.  Unfortunately, I can only counter with the correct interpretations of the very passages you deliberately twisted on the way to reaching your erroneous conclusions. Other than that, I can only try to find statistics that can be used to fill out the details you are happy to overlooking.  It is easy for you to say that you already addressed something.  Unfortunately, your addressing of the problems was no where near satisfactory.  You want me to prove that the books don't say Suian is less than 50 percent of the strength she used to have.  You want me to prove that Delana is simply talking about strength in the One Power and not social standing.  You want me to prove that her failure to lift Gareth meant she lost a lot of strength.  Well, the simple answer would be "why the bloody hell do you think Jordan went to so much trouble to show us in To Heal Again?"  Rather than do that, I have chosen to try and point out where you are making your mistakes.

 

In fact, I'm willing to risk making mistakes.  If I have people mocking me, let them.  Mockery tends to be a fall back when you can't make a real argument and try to deflect the attention away from what they other is saying.  I'd suspect that for each poster that has been mocking me, there have been at least as many readers laughing at you.  The just weren't stupid enough to waste the time posting like I have.  If it bothered me, I could simply have chosen to respond in the same manner you and Cybertrolloc like to employ.  You say there are six sisters are weaker than Suian is now?  Which six?  List them.  Since you failed to list them, they don't count.  I chose not to do that though.

 

I'm willing to give you your unsupported claim that we have met 6 Aes Sedai who are weaker than Suiane.  Six Aes Sedai that managed to scrape by the 37.5 percent cut off point that so bugs you.  Very well then, Suian is still stronger than the 37.5 percent that didn't get to test.  Barely.  At this point I'm assuming you at least realize the 37.5 to be the percentage of channelers to weak to pass the Test and that it is not reflective of the ability of anyone in the remaining 62.5 percent?  Anyway, assuming those 6 Aes Sedai are all in Salidar, and Salidar has about 300 Aes Sedai, or roughly 1/3 of all Aes Sedai, that makes them 2 percent of the Aes Sedai in Salidar.  All those Aes Sedai tell us is that Suian is now weaker than 98 percent of the Aes Sedai in Salidar.  That places her well down in the bottom 5 percent when she used to be in the top 95 percent.  (Unless you can name 50 Sisters that we know were stronger than her that is.)  Add in the fact that, anytime someone like Cadsuane thinks about the strongest sisters, she notes the ability really jumps from one to the next of that top 50, I don't see it hard to believe she lost more than 50 percent of her strength and not just her social status.

 

It's in the Pre Kod blogs.

 

Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5%.

 

So i was wrong, it'd be 38.5. Sorry, i was running off memory.

 

100% - 62.5% = 37.5% not 38.5%.  Now I need to revise my post again to get the correct percentage value in rather than the 36.2 that I was using.

[Albert]

Anyway, assuming those 6 Aes Sedai are all in Salidar, and Salidar has about 300 Aes Sedai, or roughly 1/3 of all Aes Sedai, that makes them 2 percent of the Aes Sedai in Salidar.  All those Aes Sedai tell us is that Suian is now weaker than 98 percent of the Aes Sedai in Salidar.

 

At least you, kinda, admit her to be strong enough to pass the limit for AS. I'm impressed.

Now since you have admitted as much, how do you see Siuan being, pre-stilling, stronger then Egwene? I'm quite interested in that response you were going to give me, if you were actually going to adress that. I'm guessing you would put a nice spin on the Delana comments with insults in between or something similar. Anyway.

 

If you instead take a look at the issue with Siuan apparently being way stronger then she, and everyone else apparantly, thought she was, it might get you wondering. You then might realise that maybe, just MAYBE they didn't lose over half their strength after all! That will then, hopefully, make you see their comments in a different light, such as the one Luckers correctly pointed out.

 

Ah, one can always dream...

[Cybertrolloc]

It's in the Pre Kod blogs.

 

Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5%.

 

So i was wrong, it'd be 38.5. Sorry, i was running off memory.

Oh, I'd just been ignoring the numbers because they seemed stupid. So Suian goes from say 98th percentile or so to something above say at least the 40th percentile, but below whatever the AS mean is. Which doesn't really say much at all...we already knew from the text that AS selection is based in part on strength (though that isn't phrased well).

 

Not that this will do much good, but this has nothing to do with various relative strength scales around.

[Guest cwestervelt]

If you quoted the book a few pages ago... ;) Decent evidence from Delana, we've no reason to suspect her channeler power meter is out of whack or anything, that's the kind of judgement any Aes Sedai should be able to make.

 

Two hundred and fifty pounds or heavier is not something that can be called a reasonable assumption.  For starters, unlike characters in a D&D game important people don't wear that much armor every hour of every day.  They only wear it when the occasion calls for it.  Even Agelmar didn't do that, and we was less than a day's ride from the Blight and under constant threat of Trolloc raids.  It is unlikely that Gareth was wearing any, but if it was, he would have worn the lightest he had available.  The occasion just didn't call for it and he's smart enough to realize that, however much armor he wears, it isn't going to protect him from any dangers awaiting him in Salidar.

 

You also have a problem with the fact that I didn't consider Gareth to be stocky.  Well, let me see if I can resolve that for you.  I'm sure its a futile effort as you've already made up your mind, I will try any way.  Saying he is stocky isn't the same as saying he is overweight.  It just means he is sturdily built or thick set.  As a result, he likely would not weigh that much more than the 184 pound maximum healthy limit I mentioned.  Let's say he ways 190 pounds then.  Unfortunately, that overlooks the fact that referring to someone as stocky generally implies he is on the short side.  He certainly wouldn't be described as stocky if he was an above average 6' 0" tall.  He should be below average height.  Let's just make him a little shorter at make him 5' 8" then.  But at that height him weighing 190 pounds really must be too much.  Back to the chart then.  The maximum recommended weight at 5' 8" would be 164 lbs.  Call it 170 lbs to make him just a tad heavier set.  What do you know, that is still less than the 184 lbs maximum recommended I mentioned earlier.

Average weights for us don't matter, only insofar as RJ is aware of them and uses them. By those numbers I'm overweight at 5' 10" and 170...and I'm neither fat nor mesomorphic. You've seen pictures of RJ and family on his blog? He or his cousin/in law pictured aren't exactly slim (depends on the camera used, I'd guess it'd be pretty good quality). When RJ describes a stocky guy around 6 foot wearing a breast plate, I wouldn't go below 225lbs.

 

In WoT they don't have carbon fiber, ceramics (ballistics, Heartstone notwithstanding) or Kevlar. Armor is made of steel, bronze, etc...those aren't light if they're to provide any more protection than say... (and that'd still be about 15 pounds, I don't think RJ does bikini-mail). I could see Brynn going for something like , but I doubt it's going to weigh in at less than 25 lbs.

 

Some people like to simply like to take an arbitrary number out of a hat and claim it to be realistic.  I prefer to provide something a little more realistic.  As I said, Randlanders are described as human so coming up with what are considered guidelines for humans in our world is the best I can offer.

 

Then add 25 pounds to his weight of 170.  The resultant 195 pounds only gives him 10 more pounds than my original comments.  That still gives a realistic weight that is less than 2 times what Suian ways.  And you still are assuming that he was wearing any armor when there wasn't any reason for him to be.  I don't recall RJ saying that he had any one.  I've given my reasons for assuming he didn't but I noticed you are avoiding giving reasons why he would be.

 

BTW, you really should refrain from making up numbers the way you do.  The armor in that picture isn't going to weigh anywhere near 25 pounds.  More like 5 pounds.

 

From the same place as it appears you got your image (at least they display that one)

 

This breastplate, at 18 inches high, is equipped with chain hangers and makes a stunning wall display, either alone or over wall-mounted swords or polearms.

 

Historically accurate. Made from Burnished steel. Weight: 3 lbs 8oz; Height: 18" Width: 15 1/2".

http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/CA00008.htm

 

Even this one weighs less than 20 pounds.

The last half of the 15th Century saw armor reach its apex of beauty in both form and function. This type of armor would have been a common sight on the battlefields of the War of the Roses.

 

This cuirass consists of the breast and back plates with their fauld and tassets (upper thigh protection). Handcrafted of 18 gauge steel. Approximat weight of 17 lbs. Fits up to 46" chest; Waist 38".

http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/A000016.htm

[Guest cwestervelt]

It's in the Pre Kod blogs.

 

Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5%.

 

So i was wrong, it'd be 38.5. Sorry, i was running off memory.

Oh, I'd just been ignoring the numbers because they seemed stupid. So Suian goes from say 98th percentile or so to something above say the 40th percentile, but below whatever the AS mean is. Which doesn't really say much at all...we already knew from the text that AS selection is based in part on strength (though that isn't phrased well).

 

Ah, no.  That 37.5 percent didn't make the cut to even become Aes Sedai.  You can only prove she is stronger than slightly less 40% of all people who can touch the Source (which includes people like Morgase who barely managed to sense it and certainly can't consciously do anything with it).  If you want to see her placement among Aes Sedai you need to eliminate that 37.5 percent from the equation.  Luckers was nice enough to claim we have seen 6 Sisters that have more power than Suian.  If all six of them are in Salidar, and Salidar is a representational of Aes Sedai as a whole that would we can assume there are 20 Aes Sedia that are weaker than Suian.  Out of total of about 1000.  That means, for determining status, you can only claim her to be stronger than weakest 2 percent.  If all six of them are not all in Salidar then you need to figure the number of Aes Sedai you weaker than Suain gets decreased proportionally.  It would be possible for only 1 percent of all Aes Sedai to be weaker than Suian.  Unless you can get a larger list of Sisters weaker than Suian, we can safely say she is so week that, by the Aes Sedai pecking order, she needs to defer to virtually everyone.  Maybe everyone if she has to defer to the 6 who are weaker than her based on the uncertainty the uniqueness of her situation has place her in.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

This post is aimed at the debate that channeler strength is body-based.

 

RJ has said that he could place every female channeler on a 21-level scale. Wotmania grades Siuan at level 10 (with level 1 being the highest). Click here to see for yourself. Now, if to be accepted into the Tower you have to be in the 38th percentile or above, then, according to wotmania, levels 19 through 21 (being the lowest) consist of an entire 37 percent. That means the 18 highest levels account for 63 percent of all channelers.

 

Lanfear herself is on a level by herself, and so is Cyndane.

 

And to quote Graendal:

The girl[Cyndane] was stronger in the One Power than she [Graendal] herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women.

 

-The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

 

"...in her own age...very rare indeed." And how would the Dark One have had the fortune to find someone stronger than Graendal (if one such person exists) when Alivia and Sharina, whose strengths place them at levels 3 and 4 respectively, are unrivaled by anyone in the Third Age, and stronger than anyone since the Age of Legends?

 

Not only that, but no other place in Randland is as isolated and secluded as Two Rivers, due to it's borders (Two Rivers to the North and South, the Mountains of Mist to the West, and the Mire to the East.)I find it incredibly unlikely that Aes Sedai would manage to miss someone as strong of a channeler as Nynaeve anywhere else, even in the borderlands.Not just miss them, though, but miss them for twenty years or more, to fit the age of Cyndane.

 

A channeler of that strength would have to be found somewhere other than the Westlands, and somehow I doubt the Shadow has a large supply of dead Seanchan bodies to transmigrate souls into.

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

Anyway, assuming those 6 Aes Sedai are all in Salidar, and Salidar has about 300 Aes Sedai, or roughly 1/3 of all Aes Sedai, that makes them 2 percent of the Aes Sedai in Salidar.  All those Aes Sedai tell us is that Suian is now weaker than 98 percent of the Aes Sedai in Salidar.

 

At least you, kinda, admit her to be strong enough to pass the limit for AS. I'm impressed.

Now since you have admitted as much, how do you see Siuan being, pre-stilling, stronger then Egwene? I'm quite interested in that response you were going to give me, if you were actually going to adress that. I'm guessing you would put a nice spin on the Delana comments with insults in between or something similar. Anyway.

 

If you instead take a look at the issue with Siuan apparently being way stronger then she, and everyone else apparantly, thought she was, it might get you wondering. You then might realise that maybe, just MAYBE they didn't lose over half their strength after all! That will then, hopefully, make you see their comments in a different light, such as the one Luckers correctly pointed out.

 

Ah, one can always dream...

 

I'll think I'll leave insults and sarcasm to you.  You make a good job of it on your own and it appears to be the only thing you have much talent at.  If you don't like my refusal to give completely acceptance to a statement Lucker's didn't provide proof for, that doesn't bother me in the least.  He has shown an unwillingness to accept that type of statement from me, so why should I from him?  Granting him the courtesy of benefit of the doubt was much better than he bothers to do.

 

Is that the tone of reply you were looking for?  I did my best to duplicate yours, but I'm afraid I really wasn't into it.

 

Now for a real reply:

 

I'm not certain what your issue concerning Suian and Egwene is.  I've never said Egwene wasn't stronger than Suian or done anything that I consider would imply as much.  Then only thing I can think of is that you are trying to place my using a value of 50 for Siuan as being a ranking on a scale.  If so, then you misunderstood what it was representing.  If I was referring to a scale, I would have said as much.  Frankly, as there is no such scale, I shouldn't need to say I'm not talking about one.  Fifty is simply a number I find easy to work with for rudimentary demonstrations.  Halving it results in a nice round number.  I suppose I could have used 10 halved to 5 but I don't see how that can make any difference.  You seem to be persisting in the belief that the varying degrees of ability are on a straight line.  Were was that mentioned?  There  appear to be different groupings people fall into, nothing I am aware of says the gap between those groupings is constant.  I've always taken it to be closer to an exponential curve myself.  Maybe not quite that steep (say only a 25 or 50 percent increase from one level to another), but it should give at least the general idea.

 

So that would give something like this.  Fore simplicity, I will use level 0 for those below the cutoff point.

 

Level 0 = 0

Level 1 = 2 ^ 0 = 1

Level 2 = 2 ^ 1 = 2

Level 3 = 2 ^ 2 = 4

Level 4 = 2 ^ 3 = 8

Level 5 = 2 ^ 4 = 16

Level 6 = 2 ^ 5 = 32

Level 7 = 2 ^ 6 = 64

Level 8 = 2 ^ 7 = 128

Level 9 = 2 ^ 8 = 256

Level 10 = 2 ^ 9 = 512

 

[Charlz Guybon]

Doesn't matter that your numbers weren't put on a scale from 0-100. If the cut limit is 36,2%, and they are over it as evidence by them being stronger then other AS, then they would have to had been at LEAST 72,4, more like 75% before stilling. If they lost half their strength, that is. Since they obviously wasn't that strong before, she did not mean they lost over half their original strength.

It's quite simple really. Once you use your brain that is. Since you seem to refuse to do that cwewtervelt, or don't  have one, I assume you'll ignore this post. Or just pick out one part that you can vaguely try to counter. I tried making it really simple for you so you couldn't, but hey, you managed to argue entire 7 pages with your bad interpretation of her words so maybe you can pull it off. We'll see I guess.

 

You're assuming that strength increases linearly, when from all the evidence that I've seen that is surely not the case. Some one in the 75th percenticle isn't merely thrice as strong as someone in the 25th, but a great many times stronger.

 

Someone who was at the 75th percentile who lost half her strength would not fall to the 37.5th percentile.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I'm not necessarily a subscriber to either camp, but I must say that was an excellent point, Charlz.

 

But I will say that one could easily assume that most channelers in the White Tower are relatively close to each other, so when someone like Siuan says she used to be a great deal stronger than someone, there isn't as large of a gap as there is between, say, her and Nynaeve (with Nynaeve being on top).

 

So when comparing someone like Nynaeve or Lanfear to another character, RJ has to get a little more superlative and say something like "She was the strongest channeler in 1000 years" to make us fully comprehend how enormous the gaps are between normal Aes Sedai and people like Lanfear with Aes Sedai being relatively close.

 

Let's not forget Nynaeve's infamous quote where she thinks she can only handle half the amount of the Power that a circle of 13 Aes Sedai with the wand sa'angreal are handling (The Great Hunt, when they are healing Mat). Even admitted that there is an enormous gap between Nynaeve and the strongest of those Aes Sedai, I'd put no credibility in that statement, since sa'angreal enhances your ability by an exponential amount.

 

But my point in that statement is that sometimes characters don't seem to be able to make an appropriate recognization of their own strength. It's more of a rough judgement, and sometimes it could be as askew as Nynaeve's guess.

 

But, also, pointing this out (and recognizing the non-linear system), we might have to look at Graendal as a weaker channeler than we first thought. In the Third Age, she's above everyone but Alivia and Lanfear/Cyndane.

 

We should probably place her as Mid to High-tier channeler, whereas Lanfear would be probably the second-to-highest tier of all channelers in the Age of Legends, separating them by 3 or 4 levels in the Age of Legends. This would allow Lanfear's strength to decrease by half and still be in front of Graendal, and at the same time allow for an extra level above Lanfear, for the "very rare."

 

I'd like to ask those of you who don't think she [Lanfear] got stilled why she had a problem fending off the Finns? Let's not forget the Tower of Ghenjei, so it isn't like she didn't have an escape route.

 

Let me also say that even if you don't think channeling near a ter'angreal would have stilled Lanfear, she was also using an angreal, which was clawed out of her hands when she fell through the gateway, while she was still using it. That type of abrupt cutting off from an angreal might have burned her out or stilled her.

[Cybertrolloc]

Hence why I thought it was a bad idea to try to bring up numbers. Amazing how seemingly otherwise intelligent people fall to pieces when just talking about percentages...do you balance your own checkbooks?

[Charlz Guybon]

Hence why I thought it was a bad idea to try to bring up numbers. Amazing how seemingly otherwise intelligent people fall to pieces when just talking about percentages...do you balance your own checkbooks?

 

I think it's worse that people don't understand that percentages ≠ percentiles.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Who is that aimed at, Charlz?