The Mysteries of Cyndane

[Jeff from MI]

I think some of you people are a little strange and frankly a bit rude.  This is a work of literary fiction that follows some basic fiction writing rules, not reality.

 

There is nothing in the texts that would completely rule out most of my ideas, but some of you have already made up your minds on how Memory of Light will play out.  I expect an apology from some of you after it is published!  ;D

 

By the way, it is in text somewher in the first few books I believe, that Lanfear ranks just below Ishamel in strength.  So much for her LOOSING strength with the Finns, and yes, it is clear in the books that she had contact with them.  Unfortuatly, I do not have time to look up a verse for you as I have a family and a job with a LONG commute but it appears that some of you have nothing but time so knock yourselves out.

 

Again it is just this simple..

 

Lanfear gained extra strength from the Finns, then lost that strength when she was reborn.  Simple. No conveluted theories required.  Of course we do have 1.5 or so years to complicate things!  :)

 

I will admit that me theories on Moraine are a bit more shakey, but I still stand by them.  There is nothing that I read that would rule my theories out in my mind. In fact, if I am correct about Lanfear, which I belive I am, the only logical reason for that whole story line is to set up Moraine for the same increase in strength.  It is called foreshadowing people...

 

Jeff Out ::)

[Vambram]

Jeff from MI, I don't know about you, but it seems like to me that if your theories about Lanfear are OH SO very clear and obviously correct, then then the wotmaniacs and fans of RJ's WoT here on dragonmount would have no real choice but to simply accept your wisdom. However, I believe that your theories are based upon faulty memories you have of what you have read in the books. :)

[Gat]

personally Jeff i think the whole root of the "debate with you stems from a simple misunderstanding stemming from this line in the books.

 

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

The general consensus on dragonmount is that time the "Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her" is referring to the time she spent in finnland after going through ter'angreal with Moiraine before she evidently died.

 

You seem to believe that it is referring to a prior visit (in AoL maybe, you haven't made when you think this first visit happened clear). If you could try and provide a quote (other than the one above) of a time Cyndane or Lanfear are indicated to have spent any time in finnland it would go a long way towards helping your theory along.

[Gentled Ben]

Ah yes, that would explain a lot.  ;) I think you've described the root of the problem, Gat, one that I certainly did not see. Can you respond to that and clarify it for us, Jeff? And I was not trying to be rude; I was becoming exasperated with your intransigence over what seems obvious to the rest of us, yes, but I wasn't angry, and I'm  not (intentionally) rude unless I'm mad.

 

Sorry, Darkness,

-the loss is particular to each channeler, depending on x,y, and z criteria that apply only to said channeler (I've no idea what).

didn't jump out at me as being the same as saying "Perhaps it's a set amount rather than a percentage." Siuan and Leane were/are indeed of different strengths, but not necessarily of such a degree as to make that much difference where our computations are concerned. The percentage loss could still be close enough as to be considered the same, for example, 50% and 53%. In both cases, they would each likely say "I'm half as strong as I used to be," but really, what Luckers is purporting (unless I misunderstand him, which I have before and will again, I'm sure)is that the 50% loss they suffer is in Aes Sedai hierarchy. They now stand half as high as before due to the loss of strength, not that the strength loss itself was 50% If I got the gist of his theory, in fact, he's saying that they couldn't lose 50% of their strength and still remain above the cutoff strength for being Aes Sedai, as the strength margin for being Aes Sedai is too narrow for that.

[Guest cwestervelt]

There is one real problem with Lanfear having visited the the Eelfinn previously.  Unless she went via the Tower of Ghenji anyway.  If she had used the Doorway before, then she would have just fallen through and been consumed by the flames.  The same person cannot pass through twice.  We have no evidence that one person can pull another through with them.

 

For the "Moiraine can no longer Channel" people, you don't have proof to support that.  I claim she still can Channel.  I don't have proof to support that either.  Neither of us can prove it because we haven't seen Moiraine since then, and will not until sometime in the final book.  All we have are personal interpretations of what happened when Moiraine passed through the Doorway.  I consider your interpretation to be completely wrong, you think the same of mine.  All we really  know about what happened is how much we don't yet know.  We don't know why Lan's bond transferred when it did.  Only that, rather than breaking, it transferred to Myrelle.  Maybe Moiraine did something to cause it to transfer.  Maybe, and what I consider the most likely, the Doorway's destruction, thus Moiraine's connection to the world caused it to transfer.  What we know is that it was not caused by Moiraine's death as assumed by the characters in the book.  Lan's words, "She's gone," don't indicate anything other than that the bond was transferred.  Once that happened, obviously Lan couldn't sense Moiraine anymore as he was no longer bound to her.  It is important to note that the Bond never broke.  Since the Bond never broke, Lan could not, and did not have the usual reactions.  Again, it is just an assumption made by the characters and they act based on that assumption.  If it had broken it could not have transferred because there would have been nothing to transfer.  Myrelle wasn't present to establish a new bond.  The only way for the Bond to have transferred to Myrelle was if it never broke to begin with.  Lan has a rational conversation when he says goodbye to Rand.  Not at all the mark of a Warder suffering a broken bond and barely held in check by the will of another person.  That he didn't turn aside from any danger when heading to Myrelle doesn't mean anything either.  Lan was being Compelled (capital intended) to find Myrelle.  He could no more avoid a danger in his path than he could avoid seeking Myrelle.

[Luckers]

Firstly, to the person who asked me why I spell Siuan, Suine. Its because I'm retarded. :)

 

Siuan and leane didn't lose much strength? You have got to be smoking something funny.

 

Leaving that nonsese aside, you seem tomake a very bizarre assumption, that Lanfear and Siuan/Leane lost an equalk amount of "points" on your homemade scale. That's ridicilous.

Try losing similar percentage, that's the most logical thing.

 

Leaving aside the personal attacks--though Maj, i have to say, they are beneath you. What happened to you on your sabatical? I used to respect you, now im saddened everytime we have a discussion--The assumption is not bizaare. Nor is it really an assumption. We have RJ's wualitative statement about the cut off point of the strength nessasary to attain the Shawl, and we have the quote from CoT by Egwene about the Aes Sedai with Akkarin who were weaker then Siuan. That cut off stength is around the 36.2 percentile, according to RJ. So unless you wish to claim that Suine and Leane were ABOVE the 72.4 percentile... no, they did not loose 'more than half their strength'. Aside from which, those comments they made address their loss in social status, a range marking between Siuan's former strength and Daigian's strength.

 

Frankly, you're an arrogant man to post such a comment without even addressing the arguments in favour of such a disposition. To avoid you dancing aroung the issue again, i have a question for you.

 

Please show, with relevant quotes, why my comments in reguard to the fact that Siuan was addressing the decrease in social status in her comments in LoC, plus why you think that doesn't influence the question of how much actual stength Siuan and Leane lost.

 

Ok, on to your comment on Logic... I'm afraid i don't understand. Logical fallacy is a function of mathematically removing arguments that don't have consistent progression. I'm afraid your own personal opinon does not qualify as any sort of logic based exclusion of evidence.

 

Unless of course you have some premise that shows why anything but a percentile decrease in the power must be wrong... a modus tollens, possibly?

 

No, of course you don't. I state that arrogantly because having actually studied logic i know enough to frame my comments in logically valid methodology... of course, that doesn't actually suggest truthfulness, i just like pointing out when idiots misuse the word 'logic'.

 

And to illustrate so you perhaps  might understand, lets say that Lanfear had 100 powerpoints. Lets then say that Siuan and Leane had 50 powerpoints, just to make the illustration more clear.

 

Siuan and Leane admittedly lost at least 50%, which would mean they were down to 25 powerpoints. Lanfear would logically also lose about 50%, putting her at 50 poerpoints, ie the same strength Siuan and Leane used to be. Which would mean that Siuan and Leane used to be stronger than Graendal.

 

1. As stated above, you have absolutely no evidence that the loss is based on a percentage of the channelers orriginal strength. Moreover, there is conciderable evidence against it... though i am not so certain in my position that i would refuse debate. The points in support of that little comment are in the very first post of this thread. Anytime you want to actually discuss the merits, I'm willing.

 

2. Siuane and Leane 'admittedly' lost nothing. Their only comments in that direction were based on their social loss. Again, as i showed and you never addressed.

 

hahaha. Nice try, but no cookie

 

Well, thats mean. I do so enjoy cookies. Especially the white chocolate and macedamia nut ones they sell at subway.

 

The way I see it it is like this.

 

The Soul determines what half of the Power, Siadin or Saidar.  Thus Balthamel, transmigrated into Halima, still channels Saidin.

 

The Body determines how strong you can be.  Suitable strong channelers have been turning up all over the place to allow for Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael to retain strength.  Had Halima been left as herself, she may have well turned out to be another channeller similar to Alivia or Sharina.  Lanfear, being freakishly strong to begin with, got the short end of the stick do to the lack of any channelling freak being available.

 

It isn't a difficult concept to grasp, and it fits with what we are seeing.  Much better than trying to work a severing/healing by woman in.  Which, based on comments to Nynaeve from Siuan and Leane causes you to lose well over 1/2 your ability.

 

Firstly, i have issues with the suggestion about the body controlling strength. Aginor, Belthamel and Ishamael matched strengths with their new bodies so closely that when Lanfear and Cyndane didn't it caused the other Forsaken to dismiss Lanfear as to who Cyndane originally was. The high degree of coincidence in that is not proof, i admit, but it is still glaringly disturbing.

 

Secondly, and continuing on in the same line, the fact that Rand and Lews Therin are both the same strength (and what a strength they are) strikes me as peculiar if the function is genetic and not soul based. This is weaker then the first argument, i know. But certainly contributory.

 

Thirdly, I've asked this before, and i dont want you to take the following as anger, but since the question is unilaterally ignored I'm going to put in caps.

 

WHERE ARE THESE COMMENTS ABOUT SIUAN AND LEANE LOSING HALF THEIR STRENGTH?

 

I'm mean seriously... where?

 

In 'to heal again' Siuan speaks of recovering to half way between where she was, and what she had been, and that would still leave her only equal with the average, and below a lot of people. But she WAS SPEAKING OF THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HER CURRENT STATE AND HER OLD STATE.

 

Half. Half between where she was and what she is now. Seriously, i get that you dont disagree with those points, but you could at least make the effort of addressing them. For clarity.

 

1. Siuan and Leane stand above the cut off strength of 36.2.

2. Siuan's original strength marked the upper limits of the Aes Sedai hierarchy.

3. The hierarchy ranged between the strengths of points one and two.

4. That range was limited.

5. Therefore the hierarchy covered a very tiny portion of strengths.

6. Therefore a small loss in strength resulted in a massive (hey, heres your 50%) loss in social standing.

 

Now, consider that Luckers is saying that they didn't even lose half of their actual former strength, but rather, he's asserting that the 50% loss is in social standing instead, and you can more readily grasp how Lanfear can lose an amount that would seem to her to be relatively insignificant, and yet be devastating from Siuan and Leane's POV.

 

That was very well stated.

 

MR Ares: Proof that Lanfear gained strength while being held by the Finns... (quoted from Luckers post)

 

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

These are some facts that RJ tells us quite clearly:

1. Lanfear did gain strength while being held by the Finns.

2. Lanfear died and was reborn as Cyndane by the DO and is now weaker.

3. Moraine is being held by the Finns.

 

I'm sorry Jeff, I know you feel ganged up upon, but you have misinterpreted the text. The basic premise of your mistake is in the following.

 

You agree that Cydane is Lanfear.  Lanfear was held by the Finns, and it is mplied by a basic understanding of the english language that she was stronger after having been held by the Finns.

 

I direct your attention to the comment that Lanfear was stronger AFTER having been held by the Finns. Now i direct your attention to the extract i quoted in my initial post.

 

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

I emphasied the word 'before' so that the direct comparison could be observed. The language of that comment shows that Lanfear/Cyndane was WEAKER after having been held by the Finns, not stronger, as you suggest.

 

And to clarify for you there is no indication that Lanfear had any prior dealings with the Finns, nor is does her strength suggest Finn involvement.

 

You also agree that channeling is a function of the soul.  So if Lanfear was reborn into a new body, why would she need to be healed by a BA?

 

The logic of this escapes me. Lanfear's soul was placed in a new body, and has channeling is a function of the soul, and her soul is the soul in the Cyndane body therefore the channeling state of Lanfear's soul would also proceed to the new body.

 

So... i confess myself confused.

 

I think Luckers has a great point that the loss of status among Aes Sedai weighs heavily on their minds (going from the top to somewhere in the middle). He also has a point that those Aes Sedai in Salidar at that time were stronger than average: or at least the ones in charge were. (Arguably another great point, but don't want his ego swelling too much.)

 

Yes you do. My ego is like a puppy. Cute and adorable.

 

Heh.

 

I think that Suian trying to lift Brynn with the power can't be so easily discounted though. She thinks it's something that she could have done easily with the power before, yet can't manage it now. Seems pretty damning, at least so far as lifting stuff with air depends on how much of the power you can draw (which we don't know is the case, but if there's a better example of strength mattering, I can't think of one right now. Conversely, things like bridges don't depend on strength at all for how much they can carry--well infinite according to Rand, but strength and sex seems to be involved at how long they can be). Suian would probably know, but she doesn't get into it (loss of warder sadness).

 

Ok, firstly we do't know that strength doesn't effect bridges, just that women can make bridges higher then men can. This could mean all women, or it could mean that the very strongest of women can exceed what the very strongest of men can do. In reality though thats not really relevant.

 

I draw your attention specifically to "I think that Suian trying to lift Brynn with the power can't be so easily discounted though. She thinks it's something that she could have done easily with the power before, yet can't manage it now. Seems pretty damning, at least so far as lifting stuff with air depends on how much of the power you can draw".

 

Here is Siuan's exact comment. "True, the simple act of picking something up was one of the hardest in channeling".

 

She thinks it is something she could do easily before, yes. But BEFORE she was stronger in the power than she is now. And that is all that that paragraph shows;-

 

a) Siuan is weaker than she was before.

 

b) Siuan, at her new strength, cannot achieve one of the hardest things for a channeler to achieve.

 

I think some of you people are a little strange and frankly a bit rude.  This is a work of literary fiction that follows some basic fiction writing rules, not reality.

 

Jeff, people were not rude to you, they disagreed with you. The nature of your arguments were so forceful that that disagreement did come of as harsh, but I'm afraid it was you that instigated that situation. I do hope that you are willing to hang around and engage in more discussions here, but you need to here out other people, and not dimiss them as strange, especially when they use the text to back themselves.

 

There is nothing in the texts that would completely rule out most of my ideas, but some of you have already made up your minds on how Memory of Light will play out.  I expect an apology from some of you after it is published!

 

Actually, everyone of your ideas was dismissed along the course of this thread with supplementary references to the texts. I don't say that to be harsh, but your attitude of entitlement, and indeed the expectation of an apology from people who disagree with you is not going to hold merit here.

 

By the way, it is in text somewher in the first few books I believe, that Lanfear ranks just below Ishamel in strength.  So much for her LOOSING strength with the Finns, and yes, it is clear in the books that she had contact with them.  Unfortuatly, I do not have time to look up a verse for you as I have a family and a job with a LONG commute but it appears that some of you have nothing but time so knock yourselves out.

 

No, I'm sorry, but there is absolutely nothing in the books even suggesting that Lanfear had contact with the Finns prior to falling through the door way in FoH. Those who do 'have time' as you term it, did go to the effort of charting Lanfears actions. Let me show you.

 

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

 

Go to Index. It's on the left hand side of the page. Then go to Lanfear. Its all there.

 

I am sorry.

 

Sorry, Darkness,

Quote

-the loss is particular to each channeler, depending on x,y, and z criteria that apply only to said channeler (I've no idea what).

didn't jump out at me as being the same as saying "Perhaps it's a set amount rather than a percentage." Siuan and Leane were/are indeed of different strengths, but not necessarily of such a degree as to make that much difference where our computations are concerned. The percentage loss could still be close enough as to be considered the same, for example, 50% and 53%. In both cases, they would each likely say "I'm half as strong as I used to be," but really, what Luckers is purporting (unless I misunderstand him, which I have before and will again, I'm sure)is that the 50% loss they suffer is in Aes Sedai hierarchy. They now stand half as high as before due to the loss of strength, not that the strength loss itself was 50% If I got the gist of his theory, in fact, he's saying that they couldn't lose 50% of their strength and still remain above the cutoff strength for being Aes Sedai, as the strength margin for being Aes Sedai is too narrow for that.

 

You got me exactly. And i think you were very concise about Siuan and Leane's difference in strength, something i never addressed.

 

For clarification.

 

1. Siuan and Leane speak of recovering strength. Their comments about 'two-thirds' and 'half' cover the lost strength. i.e. the difference between the strength after they were healed by nynaeve, and the strength before they were severed.

 

2. That difference between what they were prior to being stilled and what they are marks a massive difference in terms of their social standing. Before being stilled they stood at the top of the hierarchy. At 100 social points (to continue to idea of ranking). Afterwards we know they stand near the bottom, though not at the bottom (four of Akkarin's people are weaker than Siuan). Somewhere between 5 and 20 social points. So, whilst their loss in strength is small, because the range of 80 to 95 social points really covers between 25 and 35 power points, their loss in social standing represents the massive decrease that Siuan and Leane purport to nynaeve and Elayne in LoC.

 

There is one real problem with Lanfear having visited the the Eelfinn previously.  Unless she went via the Tower of Ghenji anyway.  If she had used the Doorway before, then she would have just fallen through and been consumed by the flames.  The same person cannot pass through twice.  We have no evidence that one person can pull another through with them.

 

A very solid point.

 

For the "Moiraine can no longer Channel" people, you don't have proof to support that.  I claim she still can Channel.  I don't have proof to support that either.  Neither of us can prove it because we haven't seen Moiraine since then, and will not until sometime in the final book

 

Certainly there isn't proof or we wouldn't be having this discussion. There is, however, conciderable evidence.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Read the section where they go to Nynaeve begging her to try rehealing them.  If you don't get the impression that they lost well over half their power, I can't help you.  I certainly do get that impression.

[Mr Ares]

Let's try and solve this using something that bears at least a cursory resemblance to logic: 1. Cyndane thinks of her love for LTT and her offer to depose Shai'tan and rule the universe with him. Only Lanfear has done this, therefore Cyndane is almost certainly Lanfear.

2.Lanfear was last seen falling into the world of the Eelfinn with Moiraine. Their method of ingress destroyed the door. Moiraine was held by the Finn, so it is likely that Lanfear was too. As Cyndane was held by the Finn and as we have established the she is probably Lanfear, we now have more support for them being the same, and for her being held as well.

3.

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

So Alivia with an angreal is stronger than Cynfear before she was held. As no woman could be stronger (hence the correct inference of an angreal) then Cyndane (post-holding) must either be the same or less strength than pre-holding Lanfear, and if she is the same then her comment about being held is redundant, therefore she is weaker.

4. Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, according to Graendal (KOD 3 at least, if no other chapter has it). Therefore, we have Lanfear is Cyndane, Lanfear was last seen on her way to a situation likely to involve her being held, Cyndane later remembers being held, Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, and Cyndane is weaker than she used to be before the Finn held her. We have no evidence og Cynfear taking any other trips to the Finn, and we have o evidence of her making any wishes, receiving any gifts, making any bargains or asking any questions, and any theory that requires such requires unnecessary invention.

Now, does anyone wish to take issue with any of that reasoning, which does a pretty good job of tying up some otherwise loose ends? Now, to follow from that, what do we know of that can affect strength in the power? Severing and same-gender Healing only. Therefore, occam's razor suggests that this is correct.

 

The way I see it it is like this.

 

The Soul determines what half of the Power, Siadin or Saidar.  Thus Balthamel, transmigrated into Halima, still channels Saidin.

 

The Body determines how strong you can be.  Suitable strong channelers have been turning up all over the place to allow for Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael to retain strength.  Had Halima been left as herself, she may have well turned out to be another channeller similar to Alivia or Sharina.  Lanfear, being freakishly strong to begin with, got the short end of the stick do to the lack of any channelling freak being available.

 

It isn't a difficult concept to grasp, and it fits with what we are seeing.  Much better than trying to work a severing/healing by woman in.  Which, based on comments to Nynaeve from Siuan and Leane causes you to lose well over 1/2 your ability.

An interesting interpretation, child. Of course, isn't it ineresting how not only does the Shadow find 3 channeling bodies, and not only does it find 3 exceptionally strong channeling bodies, but it finds 3 bodies of the exact same strength as it's 3 channelers. None of them reports any loss or any gain in their strength. That's pretty incredible. Yes, we have seen strong channelers turn up, but 3 of those exact strengths turning up? Imprssive, but surely it would be simpler just to have strength be a factor of the soul? And as has been stated repeatedly, those comments could be taken to mean a loss of more than half their social standing, which would allow a lesser strength drop.

 

MR Ares, hero of the revolution, saviour of us all: Proof that Lanfear gained strength while being held by the Finns... (quoted from Luckers post)

 

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

Does not support your view point. Does not compute.

 

These are some facts that RJ tells us quite clearly:

1. Lanfear did gain strength while being held by the Finns.

2. Lanfear died and was reborn as Cyndane by the DO and is now weaker.

3. Moraine is being held by the Finns.

1.No, she lost it,2.yes, I agree, but RJ doesn't tell us explicitly,3.yes, I agree.

 

Majsju:

You wrote:

As for Moiraine getting the same deal, no way. She is not exactly in a position to make a bargain, being prisoner and so, bursting into the finns realm not only breaking the doorway, but also bringing a forsaken into their home. She won't get any bargain.

And even if she for some freak reason would be allowed to make a bargain, I can not see Moiraine from out of nowhere turn so selfish that she asks for something that benefits herself.

 

1. Moraine is in the same position as anyone who enters the realm, except for the fact that she is stuck!  :)  If anything she may be in a better position to make a deal since she was involved in the death of Lanfear and the Finns have expressed a dislike for the shadow.

Not the same then. SHE BLEW UP THEIR DOORWAY. Not good.

3.Moraine will do what is necessary to win the last battle. Period.  Do not confuse any romanticized visions of Moraine with the character RJ has created who will do what ever is necessary.  If that means her becoming stronger, she will do it in a heart beat.

OK.

 

Luckers:

Why else would RJ mention that Lanfear lost strength while being held by the Finns, then have Moraine in an IDENTICAL situation?

corrected for you

 

You wrote:

I'm sorry, where did RJ mention this?

 

YOU posted the answer in your initial post. (Thank you by the way for a lively discussion...)

 

From your post...

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

You agree that Cydane is Lanfear.  Lanfear was held by the Finns, and it is mplied by a basic understanding of the english language that she was stronger after having been held by the Finns.  You also agree that Lanfear WAS held by the Finns.  Moraine is now being held by the Finns.  Same situation yes?

No, the english language implies the reverse, that she is weaker post-Finn. Looks like someone needs a bit of help...oh, and yes, the situations are otherwise the same - therefore weaker Moiraine.

 

The Finns do not grant "wishes."  The snakes answer three questions, the foxes give three "gifts."  Lanfear had already been to see them both and was killed when she entered the portal for a second time by going through with Moraine, who had not been to the realm of the foxes yet. (there is a restriction on only seeing them once.)

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!They make BARGAINS, they don NOT give gifts. THERE IS A PRICE! And if she had been through the doorway before, she couldn't have gone through again, and if she hadn't, then there's no problem. And we have never heard of her going through before, that is entirely your invention, and unsupported in the text.

 

You also agree that channeling is a function of the soul.  So if Lanfear was reborn into a new body, why would she need to be healed by a BA?

And the soul hasn't changed, has it?

 

I think Occam's razor definitly applies here.  The simpilist explination is that Lanfear lost some "gift" of stength that she gained while being held by the finns during the age of legends.  Simple.  The whole theory of having been reborn, stilled, then healed by a BA is, in your own words, "convoluted."

The theory of being stilled and reborn is the simplest, in that it requires the fewest assumptions. The "gift" is you invention. And I would recommend that you don't think you know more about logic, and things like occam's razor than someone who has studied it (Young Luckers). Just a word to the wise.

 

One last observation.  Morain had told Lan that she was prepared to pass on his bond to another Aes Sedai, and I believe even joked about passing it BEFORE her death if he did not mind her.  We also know from other scenes that it is possible to pass a bond.  When Moraine channeled before tackeling Lanfear and falling through the stone doorway, I think she was not attacking Lanfear but passing Lan's bond.  Everyone assumes she was doing something to counter Lanfear's channeling but I don't think so.  Then there is no need for Moraine to die because the bond was not "snapped" but "passed" instead.  Lan had never felt either so I doubt he would be able to tell the difference.

If Moiraine had passed the bond, Lan would not have gone mad. He did, so she didn't. Death and severing are the only known things that induce that effect, and she didn't die. Occam's razor, child. Don't cut yourself. Oh, and FYI, releasing Lan or passing the bond would not have had that effect, so she didn't, just in case you were wondering about things we don't know that can cause the Warder madness.

 

Maybe we are not reading or understanding English the same way, but I shall attempt to clearly explain what I think this quote means and implies.

Alivia was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

I believe that sentence very clearly implies that Lanfear/Cyndane was stronger in the One Power before the time when she was in the 'Finn realm. In other words, something happened after Moiraine's actions forcing Lanfear to stay in the 'Finn realm which somehow caused Lanfear to lose her awesome strength in the One Power. As has been discussed previously by others, it appears that AFTER Lanfear became Cyndane that something happened or someone caused for Cyndane's strength in the one power to be less than what she had as Lanfear had at the time before she was trapped in the 'Finn realm.  :) 8) :) 8)

So one person here has no trouble with english, at least. In other words, you're right.

 

i think thst when you are cut off from the power you need, someone from the opposite sex to heal you completely, for example:

nynaeve healed logain fully back to his original power/strength, but not suian or leane,

however the bold old ashaman (cant remeber his name), who is good at healing, fully heal the aes sedai that were severed when rand escaped from their box.

 

i think the opposite sid eof the ture source is needed, to fully restore a person who has been severed, when they are being healed, so male heal female and female heal male

You think it, but we all know it. But at least you're right. And the asha'man is Damer Flinn

 

Jeff from MI, I don't know about you, but it seems like to me that if your theories about Lanfear are OH SO very clear and obviously correct, then then the wotmaniacs and fans of RJ's WoT here on dragonmount would have no real choice but to simply accept your wisdom. However, I believe that your theories are based upon faulty memories you have of what you have read in the books. :)

More to the point, if his theories were right, someone would likely have made them before, and if they were correct, or at least logically consistent, then they would be the accepted theories.

 

I think some of you people are a little strange and frankly a bit rude.  This is a work of literary fiction that follows some basic fiction writing rules, not reality.

Yes to all the above. But to understand those rules, it helps to understand what the author is saying. So read it again, and keep going till you get it right.

 

There is nothing in the texts that would completely rule out most of my ideas, but some of you have already made up your minds on how Memory of Light will play out.  I expect an apology from some of you after it is published!  ;D

Nothing, except what the author wrote. And people have made up their minds based on the evidence, which doesn't support you, boy. And as for an apology, you won't one from me, whether you're right or not. But when I pop my clogs, I'll have my next of kin post my burial site on here if I'm wrong, so you can dance on my grave. How does that sound?

 

By the way, it is in text somewher in the first few books I believe, that Lanfear ranks just below Ishamel in strength.  So much for her LOOSING strength with the Finns, and yes, it is clear in the books that she had contact with them.  Unfortuatly, I do not have time to look up a verse for you as I have a family and a job with a LONG commute but it appears that some of you have nothing but time so knock yourselves out.

She did rank slightly below Ishy, but that was before she lost strength, and her contact was in FOH, following the incident on the docks, and no other incident is mentioned or seen or implied, other than in your head. And good for you, being the only person here with family, job, and commute. I'm sure no-one else here has that...oh wait (yes, that is sarcasm).

 

Again it is just this simple..

 

Lanfear lost strength from the Finns, then she was reborn. Simple. No convoluted theories required. Of course we do have 1.5 or so years to complicate things!

There, corrected for you.

I will admit that me theories on Moraine are a bit more shakey, but I still stand by them.  There is nothing that I read that would rule my theories out in my mind. In fact, if I am correct about Lanfear, which I belive I am, the only logical reason for that whole story line is to set up Moraine for the same increase in strength.  It is called foreshadowing people...

 

Jeff Out ::)

You are wrong about Lanfear, the reverse is true, and therefore the reverse of your Moiraine theories may be true. It's called foreshadowing, kiddo. And you need to read again, until you get it right.

 

Mr Ares out (in case you've forgotten who is typing this...)

 

P.S. - some edited in bits as some people have posted some other stuff that my post didn't respond to.

 

There is one real problem with Lanfear having visited the the Eelfinn previously.  Unless she went via the Tower of Ghenji anyway.  If she had used the Doorway before, then she would have just fallen through and been consumed by the flames.  The same person cannot pass through twice.  We have no evidence that one person can pull another through with them.

 

For the "Moiraine can no longer Channel" people, you don't have proof to support that.  I claim she still can Channel.  I don't have proof to support that either.  Neither of us can prove it because we haven't seen Moiraine since then, and will not until sometime in the final book.  All we have are personal interpretations of what happened when Moiraine passed through the Doorway.  I consider your interpretation to be completely wrong, you think the same of mine.  All we really  know about what happened is how much we don't yet know.

This much is true, although we have evidence to support our viewpoint.

We don't know why Lan's bond transferred when it did.

Yes we do. The bond to Moiraine broke, and so it passed to Myrelle. we are told this will happen. All that is in disput is why it transferred, death (obviously not), stilling, and something else being the possibilities,  and as we don't know if there even is a something else, I would say we are on firmer ground.

Only that, rather than breaking, it transferred to Myrelle.

It broke and then transferred.

Maybe Moiraine did something to cause it to transfer.

Like make preparations should she die? We know this.

Maybe, and what I consider the most likely, the Doorway's destruction, thus Moiraine's connection to the world caused it to transfer.

Possible, we can't rule it out, but shear invention on your part. 

What we know is that it was not caused by Moiraine's death as assumed by the characters in the book.

Right.

Lan's words, "She's gone," don't indicate anything other than that the bond was transferred.

Right.

Once that happened, obviously Lan couldn't sense Moiraine anymore as he was no longer bound to her.

Right.

It is important to note that the Bond never broke.

Wrong. The bond breaks upon the death or stilling of the bonder, we have seen this happen.

Since the Bond never broke, Lan could not, and did not have the usual reactions.

It did break, and the differences were due to the bond being passed.

Again, it is just an assumption made by the characters and they act based on that assumption.  If it had broken it could not have transferred because there would have been nothing to transfer.

His connection to Moiraine did break, but the bond was set up so that in the event of this happening, Myrelle would take control, but other than this transfer of control, this is near identical to a bond breaking.

Myrelle wasn't present to establish a new bond.

She didn't have to be, it was already done.

The only way for the Bond to have transferred to Myrelle was if it never broke to begin with.

Splitting hairs here surely? You could think of it in terms of a passive bond to Myrelle that became an active one upon the previous bond being snapped, and thus the bond has snapped, and Lan has a new Aes Sedai.

Lan has a rational conversation when he says goodbye to Rand.  Not at all the mark of a Warder suffering a broken bond and barely held in check by the will of another person.

But Lan is hardly an ordinary Warder is he?

That he didn't turn aside from any danger when heading to Myrelle doesn't mean anything either. Lan was being Compelled (capital intended) to find Myrelle. He could no more avoid a danger in his path than he could avoid seeking Myrelle.

He was being Compelled to find her, but does that really mean he couldn't turn aside. He's a pretty strong willed guy, and a little bit out his way could see him arrive there faster. Either way, it was not the action of a rational man, and is close to what we have seen from other warders, in that it seems rather suicidal.

 

Read the section where they go to Nynaeve begging her to try rehealing them.  If you don't get the impression that they lost well over half their power, I can't help you.  I certainly do get that impression.

Each to their own, you two are unlikley to convince each other on this.

 

Basically the Moiraine thing comes down to she was stilled, or something was able to break (or whatever term you prefer, young cwestervelt) her bond to Lan, and this something is something we have not heard of or seen before or since (possibly with good reason, admittedly) and has no support in the text. So, invent new thing so she is still a channeler, or stick to what we know to be possible? That is the question.

[Luckers]

Insert Quote

Read the section where they go to Nynaeve begging her to try rehealing them.  If you don't get the impression that they lost well over half their power, I can't help you.  I certainly do get that impression.

 

Again you avoid discussing what was specifically said despite the fact that i have addressed it several times.

 

The chapter is called 'to heal again'. Read it, then read all of my comments about it (there are many--and thats just in this thread). Then we can talk.

 

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

Insert Quote

Read the section where they go to Nynaeve begging her to try rehealing them.  If you don't get the impression that they lost well over half their power, I can't help you.  I certainly do get that impression.

 

Again you avoid discussing what was specifically said despite the fact that i have addressed it several times.

 

The chapter is called 'to heal again'. Read it, then read all of my comments about it (there are many--and thats just in this thread). Then we can talk.

 

 

 

It is rather difficult to read it to provide specific statements when I don't have my books with me.  Since my reading of that Chapter provides such a different impression on me as yours does on you, it won't do much good anyway.

 

Maybe a more concrete example will help.

 

In The Great Hunt, Siuan binds and gags both Nynaeve and Egwene with the Air, lifts them both up using Air, and, if I remember right, spanks them.  All at the same time.  Oh, and she might have had Shields on them thrown in to boot.  Then, after she has been healed, she can't even budge Gareth.  Beyond being able to tie him up so he can't move, he doesn't even notice she is attempting to do anything else.

[Luckers]

You don't really read the thread before posting, do you? Here is the addressal of Siuan lifting Bryne.

 

Quote

I think that Suian trying to lift Brynn with the power can't be so easily discounted though. She thinks it's something that she could have done easily with the power before, yet can't manage it now. Seems pretty damning, at least so far as lifting stuff with air depends on how much of the power you can draw (which we don't know is the case, but if there's a better example of strength mattering, I can't think of one right now. Conversely, things like bridges don't depend on strength at all for how much they can carry--well infinite according to Rand, but strength and sex seems to be involved at how long they can be). Suian would probably know, but she doesn't get into it (loss of warder sadness).

 

Ok, firstly we do't know that strength doesn't effect bridges, just that women can make bridges higher then men can. This could mean all women, or it could mean that the very strongest of women can exceed what the very strongest of men can do. In reality though thats not really relevant.

 

I draw your attention specifically to "I think that Suian trying to lift Brynn with the power can't be so easily discounted though. She thinks it's something that she could have done easily with the power before, yet can't manage it now. Seems pretty damning, at least so far as lifting stuff with air depends on how much of the power you can draw".

 

Here is Siuan's exact comment. "True, the simple act of picking something up was one of the hardest in channeling".

 

She thinks it is something she could do easily before, yes. But BEFORE she was stronger in the power than she is now. And that is all that that paragraph shows;-

 

a) Siuan is weaker than she was before.

 

b) Siuan, at her new strength, cannot achieve one of the hardest things for a channeler to achieve.

 

Its not that I'm not willing to discuss it, but everything you've stated so far has been something I've already addressed... and with no reference to my points as to why these points arn't an issue. Am I wrong to be a little annoyed? Hell, I've addressed that specific point thee times in this post, aside from the one above...

 

As for that chapter.. its not a matter of interpretation cwestervelt. Siuan and Leane come to Nynaeve as say that they arn't as strong as they were, then they say that strength controls standing amongst the Aes Sedai, they say they stand near the bottom at that moment and then they say if they recover half of what they lost, they'd stand at the middle.

 

The only qualitative statement about their strength is that they are weaker, which we know anyway. From that moment on, every comment refers to either their social standing, or the difference between their current strength and their old strength. None of it is qualitative, none of it even hints at a loss of half their old strength (which has been proved impossible by RJ's direct statement) or anywhere close.

 

The above is probably not my best expression of that argument, thought i have much better phrase comments in this thread.

 

 

[Littel me]

cwestervelt I'm afried your referanc to Siuan treatment of Nynaeve and Egwene in TGH is wrong.

 

Siuan binds them whit air, then she pick Nyneave up, and talk about how she would like to fly, but that you can't lift you self, then she procced to talk about how she could do anything to a person she has pick up whit the power, and are porbely just about to do something to Nynaeve(she is trying to provoke her, because of her blok), when Nynavev pick Siuan up and slams her into the wall. now Siuan cuts Nynave of from the surce and tells her that she will be abel to prevent this with training. (this is a boild down version - TGH chapter 18 To the white tower)

 

The fact that Siuan forgets that she has bound Egwene with air, sugest that she has tire the flowers off. All in all not a godt argument for your possition about Siuan streng before contra after stilling/healling, as we don't see her do anything else than bound and lift a single person + maby bound another simultanius.   

[Guest cwestervelt]

Luckers:  Yes I do read the thread.  I just can't believe you can look those scenes and ignore what they are saying about Siuan's before and after strength.

 

Little Me.  Thank-you for correcting where I went wrong.  I don't have access to my books and was trying to go from memory.

[Luckers]

Which is well and nice to say, but try showing it. Seriously, show me where in those comments siuan says she lost more than half her strength. Hell, show me where she implies it... as indeed i went to the great effort of showing that she doesn't.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Will Leane's own words be adequate to support my statements?

 

Leane shook her head. "No one has ever been Healed from stilling before. Maybe the others will see it, say like being wilders. That puts you a little lower than your strength. Maybe having been weaker will count something. If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now; but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger." Elayne stared, more confused than before. Nynaeve looked as if she had been hit between the eyes.

The Lord of Chaos, Chapter 30:  To Heal Again.

 

Leanne is openly saying her and Siuan have less than 1/2 their original strength.  Unless you have some other explanation for how taking them to half of what they were before could be better than they are at that point.  They are willing to risk exposure of their scheming to get that ability back.

 

In the same chapter we get this from Delana:

Siuan sighed, looking dejected, though what she could expect after her outburst in front of the Hall, Delana did not know. Early-morning light spilled through the windows, and she thought of the breakfast she had not had yet, but this was Siuan. The situation was disconcerting, and Delana did not like being disconcerted. She had schooled herself not to see her old friend in this woman's face — not hard, since she looked nothing at all like the Siuan Sanche Delana remembered, not at any age — yet seeing Siuan again, a Siuan young and pretty, was only the first shock. The second was Siuan appearing on her doorstep with the sun not up, asking help; Siuan never asked for help. And then there was the biggest shock of all, the one renewed every time she came face-to-face with Siuan since the al'Meara woman had worked her impossible miracle. She was stronger than Siuan, much stronger. The margin had always gone the other way; Siuan had taken the lead when they were novices, even before they were Accepted. Still, she was Siuan, and upset, which Delana never remembered before. Siuan could be upset, but she never let you see it. It distressed her that she could not do more for the woman who had stolen honeycakes with her and more than once had taken the blame for pranks they had both been involved in.

 

The way Delana sounds, she is now as much above Siuan in ability as Suian used to be above her.  It isn't just a little gap either.

[jdbleam]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post, so let me take a stab at it.  Although I have worn out my set of books, I do not think that I am as well versed to give an opinion on if or what type of healing they recieved from being stilled.  I do want to point out that when Moraine and Lanfear went through the TA, Moraine was very desperate to keep Lanfear from killing, or turning Rand to the Shadow.  Lanfear was in such a fury that she would have killed anything that moved between her and Rand.  I do not think these strong emotions would have ceased when they dropped into Finland.  If they arrived together they would have immediately tried to kill each other.  Rand proves that they can channel in Finnland(as was pointed out earlier).  It leads me to believe that either they were both stilled or that they arrived at different locations.  Now if they had arrived together, stilled, They would have still have tried to kill each other.  If they arrived seperately, unstilled, Lanfear at least, would have taken the place apart in her continuing rampage. 

    So heres my theory, 1.  They arrived seperate and stilled

                        2.  Moraine may have found Lanfear later

                            and killed her.

                           

[Guest cwestervelt]

I would agree with them arriving separate.  That fits with how Rand, Mat and Moiraine were all inside the Doorway in Tear yet were not aware of each other.

 

I disagree with them being severed.  That is pure speculation based on Lan's bond getting transfered.  I have already said my piece concerning how Lan's reactions cannot be used to judge anything.

[Cybertrolloc]

I disagree with them being severed. That is pure speculation based on Lan's bond getting transfered.

It's Moiraine PoV until she goes through the door, she thinks a bit about Lan and how she did the best she could with him and hopes it's enough. Are you saying Moiraine died or released the bond within a few minutes of going through?

 

I'll need to page through the other comments more before calling anyone else an idiot. Can we get more scorn and acrimony in here?

[Luckers]

Will Leane's own words be adequate to support my statements?

 

 

Quote

Leane shook her head. "No one has ever been Healed from stilling before. Maybe the others will see it, say like being wilders. That puts you a little lower than your strength. Maybe having been weaker will count something. If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now; but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger." Elayne stared, more confused than before. Nynaeve looked as if she had been hit between the eyes.

The Lord of Chaos, Chapter 30:  To Heal Again.

 

Leanne is openly saying her and Siuan have less than 1/2 their original strength.  Unless you have some other explanation for how taking them to half of what they were before could be better than they are at that point.  They are willing to risk exposure of their scheming to get that ability back.

 

Actually no, they won't, because she is saying nothing of the sort.

 

Leane says that they are weaker, and that is Nynaeve couldn't heal them all the way the FIRST TIME maybe that the second time they could recover half of what they WERE. "Even that would be better than now".

 

She is speaking specifically of the difference between what they are now, at their reduced strength, and what they were. She speaks of RECOVERING two thirds, or half that difference. Nowhere does she even remotely imply that she or Siuan have less than half their strength, and indeed, we know this as a fact since they still stand above the Aes Sedai cut off strength.

 

I've said this... what... eight times in this thread? We've been charged of being acrimonious, and I'm sorry, i just find it irritating when people enter a thread and offer objections that have already been addressed--i dont mind people disagreeing... indeed thats the point, but acting like its some point that hadn't been seen that clearly settled the issue. Please.

[The Lost One]

Luckers, I think I have a better understanding of your ideas after reading this, but I disagree that the matter has been clearly settled.  I too interpret Leane's comments as some others do, that she less than 1/2 her original strength in the power - that of course has put her almost at the bottom of her social standing with other Aes Sedai. 

 

At this point, I think it is just a matter that some of us disagree. 

 

 

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

Will Leane's own words be adequate to support my statements?

 

 

Quote

Leane shook her head. "No one has ever been Healed from stilling before. Maybe the others will see it, say like being wilders. That puts you a little lower than your strength. Maybe having been weaker will count something. If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now; but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger." Elayne stared, more confused than before. Nynaeve looked as if she had been hit between the eyes.

The Lord of Chaos, Chapter 30:  To Heal Again.

 

Leanne is openly saying her and Siuan have less than 1/2 their original strength.  Unless you have some other explanation for how taking them to half of what they were before could be better than they are at that point.  They are willing to risk exposure of their scheming to get that ability back.

 

Actually no, they won't, because she is saying nothing of the sort.

 

Leane says that they are weaker, and that is Nynaeve couldn't heal them all the way the FIRST TIME maybe that the second time they could recover half of what they WERE. "Even that would be better than now".

 

She is speaking specifically of the difference between what they are now, at their reduced strength, and what they were. She speaks of RECOVERING two thirds, or half that difference. Nowhere does she even remotely imply that she or Siuan have less than half their strength, and indeed, we know this as a fact since they still stand above the Aes Sedai cut off strength.

 

I've said this... what... eight times in this thread? We've been charged of being acrimonious, and I'm sorry, i just find it irritating when people enter a thread and offer objections that have already been addressed--i dont mind people disagreeing... indeed thats the point, but acting like its some point that hadn't been seen that clearly settled the issue. Please.

 

Well, you certainly proved my point that there is nothing I can provide that you would accept as proof you are wrong.  I even included the Delana thoughts on how much Suian has lost in an attempt to make you see reason.  Apparently you completely ignored the third party analysis of Suian's ability.  What a waste of my time.

 

There is nothing ambiguous in those quotes.  There is no double speak in those quotes.  What you are doing is attempting to change the way the English language is read and interpreted.  Sorry, but doing so doesn't work.  In the process, your argument has reached the realms of abject stupidity and blind arrogance.  Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm starting to loose patience.  Taking her to two thirds or even half of what they were, in other words pre-stilling, can only be done if they are less than half of that strength now.  She's not hoping to halve they difference between what she is now and what she was.  She is simply hoping to get to the half way point of what she used to be.

 

To use the point system that has been put forward...

 

If she was a 50 she is now around 20.  Probably less.  Certainly less than 25.  Getting back to that 25 would leave her at about average in Salidar.  While I'm at it, I might as well note that the reason a percentage of ability being lost makes more sense is that, if it is a set amount, the average Sister in Salidar, if stilled and healed lost the 30+ or so points that Siuan lost, wouldn't be able to light a candle with what ability they had left.  They would be in negative power numbers.

[Albert]

If she was a 50 she is now around 20.  Probably less.  Certainly less than 25.  Getting back to that 25 would leave her at about average in Salidar.

 

RJ himself has said that the limit in Power to become AS, is at 36.2%. Yes?

Now then, since they clearly were allowed to become AS again, was because they were over that limit.

Still with me? Now, since if they had lost over HALF of their strength, they would have to be at at LEAST 72,4% pre-stilling, more like 75%+ since they said 'over'. Wow, weren't they strong. They could nearly match the Forsaken with that! And since Egwene is quite a bit stronger, let's say she is around 85%! Never realised she was stronger then some of the Forsaken, oh well. And Nynaeve then. Whoaah. She is a LOT stronger then Egwene! I wonder if she even fits in at the chart? Let's put her at around 95-96% then, to be modest. And she isn't even supposed to be as strong as Graendal or Lanfear (pre- and post-healing)! That would surely put them way high up, at least maybe 105% for Graendal and 110-115% for Lanfear. Wow.

Oh wait, how far does the chart go?

 

It simply is impossible for them to have lost over HALF their strength, and still have become AS. If you can agree on that, which I know you won't, you will see it in the way Luckers was trying to show you. If not, meh. Continue on being wrong. You sure are making a good job at it...

[Cadsuane]

Well, I don't know that any "lowest strength limit for Aes Sedaihood" precedent would stand in the case of Siuan and Leane. No one had ever been stilled and rehealed before, so that may trump any usual strength requirement. They are already trained and knowledgeable, and as far as the other AS know, they are still bound by the oath rod. That may allow them to become AS again, even if they are not strong enough to become AS under the regular Tower standards.

[Guest cwestervelt]

There is a practical reason for the minimum strength requirement.  If an Aes Sedai isn't strong enough in the Power, she won't pass the Test.  I don't think we ever get told what happens to you if you fail.  If I recall correctly, it was another of those things Aes Sedai don't like to talk about.  Which tends to mean you either died or had the ability burned out of you.  The cutoff point is there for the protection of the person undergoing the Test.  Maybe it hasn't occurred to everyone yet, but Suian and Leane already passed the Test.  The did so about 20 years prior to the current events.  They aren't being made to take it again.  In other words, it doesn't matter if they are now below the cutoff point because they were above it the only time it mattered.

 

And I will reiterate, for I hope the last time...

 

Siuan failed to lift Gareth with the Power.  Sure, lifting things is considered to be one of the hardest things they can do.  Suian used to be able to do it without even thinking, and while splitting her flows several ways.  If she only lost a little ability, she should still be able to lift things.  It would just require more effort and concentration.  Instead, putting everything she has into trying doesn't even budge him.  Not only did she fail to move him in the least, Gareth was completely unaware she attempted to do anyting beyond preventing him from walking.

 

Then there is Delana's assessment of Siuan's strength.  She doesn't just see Suian as having lost a little of her ability.  She sees Suian as having lost a lot of her ability.  Delana is now "much stronger" than Suian whereas Suian used to be the stronger of the two.

 

Then there is the unarguable statement from Leane that they are less than 1/2 as strong as they were before.  If, by a second Healing, they hope to reach a level of strength that is half of what they originally possessed, then they must be less than 1/2 of their original strength.  If they have anything more than 49.999999% of there original strenght, going to 1/2 their original strength would either leave them where they are now, or reduce their strength further.  That should be evident to everyone.  If people want to persist in redefining the English language, I can't help them.  Pity them for their desperation yes, help them no.

[Cybertrolloc]

Siuan failed to lift Gareth with the Power.  Sure, lifting things is considered to be one of the hardest things they can do.  Suian used to be able to do it without even thinking, and while splitting her flows several ways.  If she only lost a little ability, she should still be able to lift things.  It would just require more effort and concentration.  Instead, putting everything she has into trying doesn't even budge him.  Not only did she fail to move him in the least, Gareth was completely unaware she attempted to do anyting beyond preventing him from walking.

 

Then there is Delana's assessment of Siuan's strength.  She doesn't just see Suian as having lost a little of her ability.  She sees Suian as having lost a lot of her ability.  Delana is now "much stronger" than Suian whereas Suian used to be the stronger of the two.

Delana first: where's your quote to specify that she's only referring to Suian's loss of strength in the OP?

 

Before that, you're saying I'm wrong in that there's no text that provides the mechanics of lifting objects with the power. Quote it for us.