Do you think one Forsaken will betray the DO?

[RobertAlexWillis]

That's because the Creator created everything. If I can change EVERYTHING (including physics), it's not thát hard to keep my arch-enemy in a prison he technically cannot break out (unless helped). Whether that arch-enemy is as powerful as I am, or less, or more.

 

Yeah ... you kind of skipped the first one.

 

If they were of "equal" power, why did the Dark One let him change everything?

[Thorum]

When there's two people equal and they are the only two things existing, and they're each other's arch enemies, one will end up victor, the other loser. Which one stands to chance.

 

It's like in tennis: even if the two opponents are equally strong, they keep on playing, until one has won, and the other lost.

[Mr Ares]

Well .. yes.  But its the disagreement you pointed out, so we're not going to get anywhere with it.

I meant other than that, of course. But just think, with some posters, you might have had to argue for several more pages before you got to this point.

 

The Dark One has been trying to break out and failing, apparently for a long time.

That's because the Creator created everything. If I can change EVERYTHING (including physics), it's not thát hard to keep my arch-enemy in a prison he technically cannot break out (unless helped). Whether that arch-enemy is as powerful as I am, or less, or more.

If you can change everything, except, presumably, your opponent, then why not just change the laws of physics to escape from the prison, and change things to keep your opponent from you while you smash the Wheel - unless you do, but your opponent changes things back to how they were before, resulting in deadlock. If you could change your opponent, then you could change him so that he couldn't change you, and you would win. If you could create a prison, by changing things, and your opponent couldn't change things in order to get out, then that means you would have to be able to change things that he couldn't. That makes you more powerful than your opponent, although apparently not powerful enough to finish him off, or simply lacking in the desire to do so. That makes sense, doesn't it?

 

In short, they are close enough that neither can finish off the other, but one is capable of imprisoning the other in a way that the other cannot escape, therefore implying that the imprisoner is stronger than the imprisoned.

[Thorum]

They both are outside of the Wheel. They Creator has create the Wheel, and the Prison, making sure the DO can't get out by himself: making an alternative reality in which he is not all-powerful (he can't free himself).

[Mr Ares]

They both are outside of the Wheel. They Creator has create the Wheel, and the Prison, making sure the DO can't get out by himself: making an alternative reality in which he is not all-powerful (he can't free himself).

So the Creator can Create a prison that is beyond Shai'tan's ability to break free of, and can Create changes to reality beyond Shai'tan's ability to reverse those changes, and yet He is not more powerful than Shai'tan? Is Shai'tan capable of imprisoning the Creator in the same way, and if yes, why didn't he, and if no then how are they equal, when surely that represents an inequality in their powers?

[Thorum]

I believe he can and that it was the other way around due to chance (see my one-but-last post)

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Also, you are right, inkubate, in saying the Creator did not (as far as we know) create the DO, because all indications are that they are equal. But you are wrong in interpreting what BrainFire said as implying that. He thought that you were saying that.

 

I disagree and would say the indications are that the Creator is greater than the Dark One.  If their catechism is correct, the Creator bound the Dark One at the moment of Creation.  Unaided, the Creator was able to contain the Dark One yet the Dark One is unable to break free without help of humanity.

 

I didn't mean to use the word equal. I meant to say something like "...all indications are that the DO and the Creator have both been in existence forever." That is to say that I meant that neither created the other.

[lou]

wow. you have really turned this into a veritible paradox of a conversation. it's vaguely reminiscent of the balefire thread....

[RobertAlexWillis]

When there's two people equal and they are the only two things existing, and they're each other's arch enemies, one will end up victor, the other loser. Which one stands to chance.

 

It's like in tennis: even if the two opponents are equally strong, they keep on playing, until one has won, and the other lost.

 

If one wins, and the other loses, then one was stronger than the other.

 

If they are perfectly equal, then you would have a perpetual stalemate.

 

Unless, to expand your tennis metaphor into ridiculousness, you think some metaphysical gust of wind just happened to blow the Dark One's return out?  Or maybe the Creator paid off the line judge ....  ::)

 

Given things as they stand in the books, the Creator is stronger than the Dark One.

 

It may be, that if the Dark One is successful in breaking the Wheel, that the surge of chaos would change the balance of power.  That may even be Shai'tan's plan.

 

But, to return to the original deviation from the original question  ;) there is no evidence that Shai'tan desires, or finds necessary, any kind of order at all.  That is why I personally am of the opinion that if he breaks the Wheel, he'll have no desire to create anything to replace it.  He'll be perfectly satisfied wallowing in elemental chaos ad nauseam.

[Mr Ares]

When there's two people equal and they are the only two things existing, and they're each other's arch enemies, one will end up victor, the other loser. Which one stands to chance.

 

It's like in tennis: even if the two opponents are equally strong, they keep on playing, until one has won, and the other lost.

 

If one wins, and the other loses, then one was stronger than the other.

 

If they are perfectly equal, then you would have a perpetual stalemate.

 

Unless, to expand your tennis metaphor into ridiculousness, you think some metaphysical gust of wind just happened to blow the Dark One's return out?  Or maybe the Creator paid off the line judge ....  ::)

 

Given things as they stand in the books, the Creator is stronger than the Dark One.

 

It may be, that if the Dark One is successful in breaking the Wheel, that the surge of chaos would change the balance of power.  That may even be Shai'tan's plan.

 

But, to return to the original deviation from the original question  ;) there is no evidence that Shai'tan desires, or finds necessary, any kind of order at all.  That is why I personally am of the opinion that if he breaks the Wheel, he'll have no desire to create anything to replace it.  He'll be perfectly satisfied wallowing in elemental chaos ad nauseam.

What sort of person wouldn't be? And the bit about them being completely equal resulting in perpetual stalemate is completely correct. Someone would have to be slightly better in order to win.

 

wow. you have really turned this into a veritible paradox of a conversation. it's vaguely reminiscent of the balefire thread....

Some parts are almost comprehensible though, so we should try harder to confuse everyone.

[Thorum]

When there's two people equal and they are the only two things existing, and they're each other's arch enemies, one will end up victor, the other loser. Which one stands to chance.

 

It's like in tennis: even if the two opponents are equally strong, they keep on playing, until one has won, and the other lost.

 

If one wins, and the other loses, then one was stronger than the other.

 

If they are perfectly equal, then you would have a perpetual stalemate.

 

Unless, to expand your tennis metaphor into ridiculousness, you think some metaphysical gust of wind just happened to blow the Dark One's return out?  Or maybe the Creator paid off the line judge ....  ::)

 

Chance. I hope you don't believe two equally-strong arch-enemies will stay together all the time.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

It could be argued that the person who won by "chance" actually won because they were better, at that time.

 

But the reason it might be perceived as "chance" is that some player was expected to be better because of previous performances against other players, or something like that.

 

You can't quantify ability in real life. For this reason, you can't say that two people are exactly equal, for certain. Ability, in the real world, is in constant flux. One player may have drank too much water, and it might weigh them down. That is chance. A gust of wind blows the ball.That is chance. A player might trip. That is chance.

 

Are you suggesting that the Dark One might have tripped while trying to fight the Creator?

 

 

[lou]

quote from RobertAlexWillis:

"If one wins, and the other loses, then one was stronger than the other.

 

If they are perfectly equal, then you would have a perpetual stalemate."

 

ok, i will throw this one in there: perhaps this is why the two sides use proxies.

 

quote from the infallible Mr. Ares:

"Some parts are almost comprehensible though, so we should try harder to confuse everyone"

;)

 

 

[Guest cwestervelt]

ok, i will throw this one in there: perhaps this is why the two sides use proxies.

 

That's just getting to Eddingsish.  Besides, the DO only uses a proxy because he is impressoned.  If he were free to act, like the Creator is, the Dark One wouldn't use a proxy anymore.

[Thorum]

Nothing is eternal. That's one of the basic things in physics, which is the study RJ did.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Except for energy.  If I remember anything of what I was taught, it can neither be created or destroyed.  Just transfered from one state to another.

[Thorum]

And when it collides with its anti-particle (particle x light speed x light speed = energy, Einstein), it changes.

[lou]

ok, i will throw this one in there: perhaps this is why the two sides use proxies.

 

That's just getting to Eddingsish.  Besides, the DO only uses a proxy because he is impressoned.  If he were free to act, like the Creator is, the Dark One wouldn't use a proxy anymore.

 

ok then, show a reference where the creater takes a direct hand, He is not imprisoned.

[Guest cwestervelt]

ok, i will throw this one in there: perhaps this is why the two sides use proxies.

 

That's just getting to Eddingsish.  Besides, the DO only uses a proxy because he is impressoned.  If he were free to act, like the Creator is, the Dark One wouldn't use a proxy anymore.

 

ok then, show a reference where the creater takes a direct hand, He is not imprisoned.

 

I did not say the Creator is taking a hand, only that he is free to act if he wanted to.  The Creator is choosing to opperate through a proxy.  The Dark One is using a proxy because he is bound and thus is not free to act.  If the Dark One was free to act, then he (The Dark One) would not use a proxy.

 

Edit:  added clarification of pronoun

[RobertAlexWillis]

ok then, show a reference where the creater takes a direct hand, He is not imprisoned.

 

The Creator didn't use a proxy when he imprisoned the Dark One.  He only started that after he had put the Dark One in a position where Shai'tan had no choice but to use proxies.

[lou]

so, would you say that the situation is about balance and free will? there seems to be no real point otherwise. the creater choosesto use a proxy to make the fight with the DO a fair one,He doesnt really have to do that since there are no limitations for the creater,except for those He chooses for Himself.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Well, by not taking action, the Creator doesn't exactly make it a fair fight.  At least not if the Dark One gets loose.

 

But otherwise yes, I would say it comes down to free will.  The Creator opts to let people choose what path they want to do.  He allows people to choose to serve either him or the Dark One.  The Dark One, if he were free, would not provide that choice.