Elyas and his Aes sedai.

[Luckers]

Robert is completely correct.

[BrainFireBob]

Robert is not.

 

The Warder madness is patently a form of depression, which is why I likened it to being severed.

 

The Warder *no longer cares if he lives or dies*, as *well* as being enraged by his Aes Sedai's death. That is why the most effective treatment is to give him a reason to live (or, as it's presented, a task that "requires staying alive to fulfill"), just like it does with a channeller.

 

They don't go berserk, they go suicidal. They're not "Aes Sedai died, me angry!" They go "I have no more meaning to life" and go down fighting. They look for something that will kill them.

 

The shock of being severed has also killed Aes Sedai, the ones that didn't survive the process.

 

They don't lose their reason, they don't have a psychotic break with reality, they do not "go mad." Lan explains it quite well: They swallow their Aes Sedai's death; ie, they're dead inside. That is complete chronic depression.

 

EDIT: I should add that the only differences are superficial. We do not see Warders wandering around moping, feeling like killing themselves or letting themselves die, when their Aes Sedai are dead, unlike channellers. Of course, we don't see any channellers severed who live by a strict, bushido-like honor code, either; we know for a fact Warders do. I would be highly surprised if the Warder code allowed them suicide- their only option for suicide, then, would be seeking out something that would kill them. For instance, avenging their Aes Sedai against overwhelming numbers. Or refusing quarter, one man against an army. Or, y'know, riding halfway across Randland, forbidden to *seek out* death, but fulfilling the urge by running right through every fight and skirmish they run across, always hoping something will prove able to kill them.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Semantics.  Again.  The symptoms are completely different, just because you choose to call it "depression", don't pretend its the same thing.

 

Its simple.  If you want to base this on the difference between the Warder's "bushido" mentality (which actually only applies to some Warders from the Shienar), and the Aes Sedai's "other" mentality, we have a much more similar comparison available.

 

Logain.

 

When he was captured and stilled, he didn't go berserk, but he is a competent trained warrior with as much to lose at the time as any "depressed" Warder.  But did he try to kill everything in sight, getting himself killed in the process?  Nope.  He moped around the Tower.

 

The Warders we've seen, not ONE has simply fallen on his sword, metaphorically or literally.  It is a different set of symptoms.  Could it fall under the broad umbrella of "depression"?  Probably.  Unlike you I'm willing to admit that some words have more than one definition.  But is it the same as the "depression" that afflicts channelers who have been severed?  Nope.  Not even a little bit.

 

As for your observations on the "Warder Code", there are no indications of any such code, other than "protect your Aes Sedai".  The behaviors we've seen which are roughly similar to Japanese bushido are only present in Warders from Shienar (or trained in Shienar, like Lan).  Ironically, the very bushido you compare them to did, in fact, not only permit but require ritual suicide, under certain circumstances.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm not an expert on clinical depression, but I have never heard of it causing the sufferer to simply drop dead.  The shock of the Warder bond breaking can do that.  When one of the Aes Sedai holding the shield on Rand was severed during Rand's escape, one of her Warder's fell over dead.

[DragonSpawn]

Robert is not.

 

The Warder madness is patently a form of depression, which is why I likened it to being severed.

 

The Warder *no longer cares if he lives or dies*, as *well* as being enraged by his Aes Sedai's death. That is why the most effective treatment is to give him a reason to live (or, as it's presented, a task that "requires staying alive to fulfill"), just like it does with a channeller.

 

They don't go berserk, they go suicidal. They're not "Aes Sedai died, me angry!" They go "I have no more meaning to life" and go down fighting. They look for something that will kill them.

 

The shock of being severed has also killed Aes Sedai, the ones that didn't survive the process.

 

They don't lose their reason, they don't have a psychotic break with reality, they do not "go mad." Lan explains it quite well: They swallow their Aes Sedai's death; ie, they're dead inside. That is complete chronic depression.

 

EDIT: I should add that the only differences are superficial. We do not see Warders wandering around moping, feeling like killing themselves or letting themselves die, when their Aes Sedai are dead, unlike channellers. Of course, we don't see any channellers severed who live by a strict, bushido-like honor code, either; we know for a fact Warders do. I would be highly surprised if the Warder code allowed them suicide- their only option for suicide, then, would be seeking out something that would kill them. For instance, avenging their Aes Sedai against overwhelming numbers. Or refusing quarter, one man against an army. Or, y'know, riding halfway across Randland, forbidden to *seek out* death, but fulfilling the urge by running right through every fight and skirmish they run across, always hoping something will prove able to kill them.

 

    You know I don't disagree with the code but why did you choose Bushido code? Isn't that the code that calls for suicide at the slightest dishonor to oneself, family or noble lord? Hence even why the Japanese had so little qualms about the Kamikaze attacks seeing that Bushido code encouraged suicide and suicidal behavior. So I think if the warder code prohibits suicide it would be anything but like the Bushido code.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Semantics.  Again.

 

While we're at semantics, I just wanted to know if saidin is actually infinite, or not? Lol. just kidding.

 

But the Aes Sedai and warders who call it "madness" have never experienced it personally, so how would they know? They have observed, or heard about the reaction, and deduced that it was irrational, and therefore, madness.

 

While I agree that such actions are irrational, and thus can be considered "madness," because of the unique way in which the warder reacts, I think the root cause is a form of grief.

 

Also, I think that the warder bond could be perhaps modified to remove this, because it may well be something extra that the Aes Sedai added to give incentive to their warders, or to keep their warders from killing them. Of course, I realize that such pain works both ways, so it is possible that it actually comes with the bond and was not added.

[BrainFireBob]

Semantics.  Again.  The symptoms are completely different, just because you choose to call it "depression", don't pretend its the same thing.

 

Its simple.  If you want to base this on the difference between the Warder's "bushido" mentality (which actually only applies to some Warders from the Shienar), and the Aes Sedai's "other" mentality, we have a much more similar comparison available.

 

Logain.

 

When he was captured and stilled, he didn't go berserk, but he is a competent trained warrior with as much to lose at the time as any "depressed" Warder.  But did he try to kill everything in sight, getting himself killed in the process?  Nope.  He moped around the Tower.

 

The Warders we've seen, not ONE has simply fallen on his sword, metaphorically or literally.  It is a different set of symptoms.  Could it fall under the broad umbrella of "depression"?  Probably.  Unlike you I'm willing to admit that some words have more than one definition.  But is it the same as the "depression" that afflicts channelers who have been severed?  Nope.  Not even a little bit.

 

As for your observations on the "Warder Code", there are no indications of any such code, other than "protect your Aes Sedai".  The behaviors we've seen which are roughly similar to Japanese bushido are only present in Warders from Shienar (or trained in Shienar, like Lan).  Ironically, the very bushido you compare them to did, in fact, not only permit but require ritual suicide, under certain circumstances.

 

Logain *didn't have that option*. Gentled men are kept alive under observation and prevented from committing suicide. More, he had no option to go after the Aes Sedai who gentled him. Not until the shock, and corresponding anger, wore off.

 

The Warders lose all interest in life or living- they consider themselves dead inside. You ever been clinically depressed? I have. Trust me- that is *exactly* the experience. The same experience is also described for stilled channellers- hence the desperate need to find something to stay alive for.

[Luckers]

I'm sorry, but while you were depressed did you turn homicidal? Did you attack armies with your bear hands? Did you drop dead untouched from the shock of the experience?

 

Undoubtedly there are similarities in the experience of absorbing death when a warder bond breaks, and clinical depression, just as undoubtedly they are in no way the same, since not only do the differences outway the similarity, but that there are differences at all.

 

You may wish to dance around saying that Logain wasn't allowed to go homicidal, but the fact is that we have NEVER seen any indications of homicidal/suicidal rage on behalf of the severed channeler, and we have NEVER seen the slow fading of the internalized depression on behalf of the severed-warder. Even Kairen's warder shows escalations in violence, and he was just as closely monitered by the Aes Sedai as Logain was.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm sorry, Bob, but your argument is basically "I've been depressed, so I know."

 

Without in any way minimalizing the personal diffculty you've experienced, I point out two things.  One, you've never been a Warder, because two, this is a story whose parameters are defined by its author.

 

The characters in the story disagree with you, Bob.  And so do I.

[BrainFireBob]

My argument is that it's fatuous to say that since the Warders are so assertive, instead of so passive, is a fatuous, callow dismissal of the Warder's symptoms as being depression. I cited my own depression to indicate that I have first-hand experience of this fact.

 

We are told multiple times what the Warder "madness" really is: A swallowing of the Aes Sedai's death, and emotional coldness. Egwene quite clearly underlines that a Warder bent on self-destruction takes risks not even a Warder can survive. That's precisely what kills them: A callow disregard for risk. That's being suicidal. Combined with being cold, emotionally all but untouchable, etc., that points to a loss of the will to live. That's suicidal depression.

 

More, claiming that the behaviors are different as a justification? That's blatantly disregarding not only the facts of the behaviors, but being sloppy in your categories.

 

Setalle Anan, Martine Janata, ran as far from what she was as she could- and waited to die. Passive. Still reflecting, though, the loss the the will to live.

 

Logain was suicidal, we're told fairly directly. "You're just afraid I'll find a knife. For myself, woman, for myself. Lead on . ." Logain is watched, prevented, and kept from taking active risks or actions that will lead to his death.

 

To say that the behaviors are different is to ignore that there may be any other correlative factor accounting for the difference. We have one: Warder customs and traditions, which largely seem to be derived from Borderlander traditions. Look at the younglings, or the non-Borderlander Warders, to see these in action.

 

I admit it's speculative to suggest that the Warders have a suicide taboo- but it's not groundless, considering their death-seeking natures after their Aes Sedai dies. In the shock of the moment, many display rage- but once shock wears off, the symptoms don't improve *unless the Warder finds another reason to live*, expressed in series as "giving him a task so important he has to stay alive to carry it out." Other treatments include not giving him time to think and sink into despondency, and placing him in a woman's bed- a state of mind thought incompatible with being suicidal and depressed.

 

Channellers too only live if they find another reason or manage to keep too busy to "give up and die"- although in the Warder's case, they start placing themselves in the way of death, instead of just waiting for it to appear. Anan survived because she found something to live for: Her family and her husband. A new life that was completely different. Siuan and Leane kept busy at first, and then attached themselves to a cause (the journey wasn't guaranteed, hence the constant impatient *doing* of reaching Salidar).

 

The mentality regarding continued living? The same.

The "treatments" that correct the condition? The same.

The attitude toward death? The same.

 

That pretty clearly indicates they're facing the same thing. The fact that the adrenaline-charged stick jockeys and the educated noblewoman-trained sisters both show distinct manifestations in how they cope doesn't really indicate a different "madness" when viewed through that lens.

[RobertAlexWillis]

My argument is that it is fatuous to say that all forms of "depression" are exactly the same, have the same cause, and the same general symptoms.

 

But, that said, we disagree.  So be it.

[Luckers]

We are told multiple times what the Warder "madness" really is: A swallowing of the Aes Sedai's death, and emotional coldness. Egwene quite clearly underlines that a Warder bent on self-destruction takes risks not even a Warder can survive. That's precisely what kills them: A callow disregard for risk. That's being suicidal. Combined with being cold, emotionally all but untouchable, etc., that points to a loss of the will to live. That's suicidal depression

 

I'm sorry, but the Warder that dropped dead immediately upon his Aes Sedai's death makes that completely wrong. Moreover, the rage witnessed in the Warders in Caemlyn similarily dismisses your account of 'what we've been told the Warders madness really is'. Because we are told quite clearly that it is a madness.

 

Additionally, i just went and checked my psychology text books, and you are very much wrong. homocidal disregard for personal safety following a personal loss is not suicidal depression, or a depression of any form. Its called a dissasociative break with reality resulting in an aggressive psychosis, and as far as it follows it can end with the individual unable to connect emotionally with the world around them.

 

However, since what the warders experience is an effect and against their will, and in no way indicative of their own personal feeling, as Eldrith's warder does prove absolutely, such a position is also false.

 

More, claiming that the behaviors are different as a justification? That's blatantly disregarding not only the facts of the behaviors, but being sloppy in your categories.

 

I'm sorry, what? The DS-4 in no way recognizes anything you've said to date, moreover as it establishes categories varying behaviour and beyond that, varying sources to the same behaviour are absolutely important.

 

Setalle Anan, Martine Janata, ran as far from what she was as she could- and waited to die. Passive. Still reflecting, though, the loss the the will to live.

 

Logain was suicidal, we're told fairly directly. "You're just afraid I'll find a knife. For myself, woman, for myself. Lead on . ." Logain is watched, prevented, and kept from taking active risks or actions that will lead to his death.

 

I'm sorry, now you're just being wishful. Logain, even free, displays the same listless passivity he displayed in captivity. He never at any stages displays any inclination to take active risks. And again i ask you, what of Kairen's warder who came under the same supervision but displayed an increasingly hostile mentality.

 

I'm sorry, this discussion is pointless. The causes are different, the symptoms are different, and the results are different. No amount of twisting gender evidence or completely inaccurate psychoanalysis disproves what is proven time and again in the books.

[BrainFireBob]

I'm saying neither of the first two, the last being a tautology- if it doesn't fit the same general symptoms, it's not depression.

 

My *original* argument is the the nature of the depression is the same on a closer look- when I wrote my last post, I indicated where: The behavior is responsive to the exact same treatments, in apparently the same order of effectiveness. (Most effective: Reason to live. Next most: Keep busy. Third most: lover). Since the general malaise is similar, but is, so far as we can tell, identically response to treatment, then yes, it's the same damn disease.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Bob ... your idea that because some of the same solutions are applied to each situation, the situations must be the same, is ludicrous.

 

To choose just one of many possible examples:

 

Oxytetracycline is a drug that can be used to treat syphillis, lyme disease, rocky mountain spotted fever, and acne.  Those are conditions which are each have very different causes, and very different symptoms, but can be treated the same way.

 

In the same manner, just because giving someone a reason to live, or finding them a lover, can work for both Warder Madness and Severed Depression, does not mean that those two conditions are either the same, or from the same cause.

[BrainFireBob]

We are told multiple times what the Warder "madness" really is: A swallowing of the Aes Sedai's death, and emotional coldness. Egwene quite clearly underlines that a Warder bent on self-destruction takes risks not even a Warder can survive. That's precisely what kills them: A callow disregard for risk. That's being suicidal. Combined with being cold, emotionally all but untouchable, etc., that points to a loss of the will to live. That's suicidal depression

 

I'm sorry, but the Warder that dropped dead immediately upon his Aes Sedai's death makes that completely wrong. Moreover, the rage witnessed in the Warders in Caemlyn similarily dismisses your account of 'what we've been told the Warders madness really is'. Because we are told quite clearly that it is a madness.

 

Additionally, i just went and checked my psychology text books, and you are very much wrong. homocidal disregard for personal safety following a personal loss is not suicidal depression, or a depression of any form. Its called a dissasociative break with reality resulting in an aggressive psychosis, and as far as it follows it can end with the individual unable to connect emotionally with the world around them.

 

However, since what the warders experience is an effect and against their will, and in no way indicative of their own personal feeling, as Eldrith's warder does prove absolutely, such a position is also false.

 

More, claiming that the behaviors are different as a justification? That's blatantly disregarding not only the facts of the behaviors, but being sloppy in your categories.

 

I'm sorry, what? The DS-4 in no way recognizes anything you've said to date, moreover as it establishes categories varying behaviour and beyond that, varying sources to the same behaviour are absolutely important.

 

Setalle Anan, Martine Janata, ran as far from what she was as she could- and waited to die. Passive. Still reflecting, though, the loss the the will to live.

 

Logain was suicidal, we're told fairly directly. "You're just afraid I'll find a knife. For myself, woman, for myself. Lead on . ." Logain is watched, prevented, and kept from taking active risks or actions that will lead to his death.

 

I'm sorry, now you're just being wishful. Logain, even free, displays the same listless passivity he displayed in captivity. He never at any stages displays any inclination to take active risks. And again i ask you, what of Kairen's warder who came under the same supervision but displayed an increasingly hostile mentality.

 

I'm sorry, this discussion is pointless. The causes are different, the symptoms are different, and the results are different. No amount of twisting gender evidence or completely inaccurate psychoanalysis disproves what is proven time and again in the books.

 

Luckers, you and RAW both seem so focused on the immediacy of the Warder's reaction that you fail to look at the entire system. By the logic you're using, the Aes Sedai Rand stilled at Dumai's Wells pulling at her face and hair is still doing so, and has not moved on to doing anything else. Correct, it's a complete dissociative split with reality: Caused by? Why, for that, we need to look at their behavior once the immediate shock has passed.

 

Logain became passive after having been severed for some time. The only Warder we see- the only one we can pass judgement regarding- is Lan, who was forced to survive his bond snapping and was not allowed to run amok.

 

Saying "well, the Warders in Caemlyn flipped into rage" is claiming that a Warder stays completely enraged at all times forever no change. Not the case we're actually presented.

 

Moreover: Severing has resulted in the deaths of Aes Sedai. More accurately, situations that "fail to kill" channellers often severe them. That's pretty much covering the disingenuous "but some Warders die and Aes Sedai don't" argument.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Obviously it wasn't just depression...That isn't what we're saying, that isn't what I'm saying. The initial shock of feeling the equivalent of a part of you die is very significant.

 

But once again, let me say: we've never heard a warder who has personally experienced the death of his Aes Sedai refer to it as madness.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Moreover: Severing has resulted in the deaths of Aes Sedai. More accurately, situations that "fail to kill" channellers often severe them. That's pretty much covering the disingenuous "but some Warders die and Aes Sedai don't" argument.

 

Unfortunately you are taking that entirely out of context.  There is a difference between what will outright kill a Sister and what will burn her out.  When a Sister dies is the way you are referring to, she didn't die as a reaction to being burned out, she died as a direct result of losing control.

[RobertAlexWillis]

But once again, let me say: we've never heard a warder who has personally experienced the death of his Aes Sedai refer to it as madness.

 

LOL ... we've only seen one Warder who has personally experienced the death of his Aes Sedai speak ... al'Lan Mandragoran, who is an exception to alot of rules. 

 

And even though he had someone else holding his bond, it still affected him, both immediately and on down the road.  When he meets up with Nynaeve, he says:

 

"When Moiraine died - when a Warder's bond to his Aes Sedai is snapped - there are changes ..."

 

As he continued, her arms cnaked around herself, hugging tightly to keep her from shivering.  Her jaw ached, for she kept it clamped shut.  She released the flow holding him as if a hand springing away, released saidar, but he only straightened and went on relating this horror without so much as a flinch, went on watching her.  Suddenly she understood his eyes, colder than winter's heart.

 

ACoS ch 31

 

I'm sorry, but for a man like Lan, whose whole life is defined by sorrow and loss, to be that deeply affected ... to be hesitant even to share the information ... just because he didn't use the word "madness" doesn't mean thats not what he's talking about.  He didn't say "Lots of Warders will say we go mad, but I'm feeling it, and its not like they say."

 

Lan fully agrees with the normally held views.  Do you think the Aes Sedai and Warders, who all agree that the Warders will go mad when the bond is snapped, haven't seen it tons of times before? Come on.