If Cadsuane gets killed before the last battle, who gets her ter'angreal set?

[Charlz Guybon]

Now, Cadsuane gets on my nerves (that's an understatement), but in no way would I wish her dead. When did it become widely accepted (it seems so) that she was going to die in AMoL? That would actually sadden me more than, say, Elayne or Egwene meeting an abrupt end.

 

I think People believe she'll teach Rand tears by dying in a gruesome  fashion.

[Darkness Incarnated]

Hell, all that would accomplish is add another name to the list in his head ???

[Luckers]

That is one.  Do we have a more complete inventory anywhere?  She mentions that item in CoT ch 23, but besides mentioning the ones she doesn't know the function of, she gives no other details there (about function, anyway).

 

Also, is there a list anywhere of the items in Nynaeve's set, and do we know if there are any items in her set still unidentified?  I know there are items missing, but are there any items present, but unaccounted for?

 

From my own notes, which I have completely checked yet, here is a list of what each woman has, that we know of.

 

Cadsuane.

 

Known ter'angreal.

 

1. Star - Vibrates in the presense of a man channeling, more for more men.

2. Hummingbird - Well.

3. Swallow - Detects channeling, and shows the direction of that channeling. Does not show channeling by male/female circles.

4. Shrike - An angreal.

 

Uncertain ter'angreal.

 

5. Two Intertwined Moons - Most probably a weave disruptor like Mat's medallion. It goes cold when Alanna draws on the Source, and we know Cadsuane has just such a weave disruptor.

6. Distant Weave Breaker - Cadsuane breaks an inverted weave. This may be the work of the Two Moons, but since Mat's cannot achieve that, then I'll put it under a second category. (Possibly one of the fish ter'angreal).

 

Others.

 

7. A Moon - Cadsuane has a moon ter'angreal that she does not know the use of.

8 & 9. Two (seperate) fish - There are two fish ter'angreal that she also does not know the use of.

10. A Fish - When Cadsuane thinks on the two fish whose uses are unknown, she thinks of them as 'two of her fish', which suggests there is one more that she does know the use for. This is possibly the Distant Weave Disruptor.

 

There may be others, in none of her thoughts does she specify how many there are, though concidering that's 9 or 10 ter'angreal right there, it may be hard to fit too many more in her hair.

 

Nynaeve.

 

Known Ter'angreal.

 

1. Rings and bracelet - An angreal.

2. A golden belt - A well.

3. A ring with a green stone - detects channeling, and differentiates between saidin and saidar.

4. A bracelet with red stones - Creates armour out of air so strong that it could be hit directly with a sword and the user would barely feel anything.

5. A ring with a saphire - goes cold when someone nearby is angry.

 

Uncertain Ter'angreal.

 

6. A Weave dirsuptor - akin to Mat's and Cadsuane's.

 

Unknown ter'angreal.

 

7. A 'long necklace, set with very good rubies'.

8. A bracelet with 'fine saphires'.

9. A bracelet with 'pale blue stones'.

10. A ring with a saphire.

11. A ring with a 'pale blue stone'.

 

Unless there were toe rings that is all of her ter'angreal, which means there are ten in total since the weave disruptor has to be one of the unknown ter'angreal.

 

That still doesn't make breaking up Cadsuane's set a good idea.

 

I don't disagree, i was merely pointing out that the set had already been broken.

 

That would still qualify as the same person or group, Luckers.  Unless you don't consider a student and teacher to be a "group" ...

 

So i missed the word 'group'. It's a silly word anyway. :p

 

I wouldn't consider the appearances of the either set to say anything about who made them.  There was some indication that items like these were made for specific people.  Much like Haral Luhan made Perrin's axe for a specific merchant's guard.  If that is true, then the ter'angreal/angreal would reflect the personalities of the person who commissioned them, not the person who actually made them.  Flamboyant for the Graendals and elegant for the Lanfears.

 

If it was made during the breaking, as it almost certainly was, i find it highly unlikely that it was either comissioned, or indeed made to be warn by anyone other then the maker, in which case it does show the personality of she that made it.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

6. Distant Weave Breaker - Cadsuane breaks an inverted weave. This may be the work of the Two Moons, but since Mat's cannot achieve that, then I'll put it under a second category. (Possibly one of the fish ter'angreal).

 

 

When did we see Mat's ter'angreal fail against an inverted weave?

[Achmed]

I don't know that we have seen (well could we?) Mat's medallion fail against an inverted weave but I believe that the quotation was referencing the breaking of Smerihage's disguise.  Maybe?

[Charlz Guybon]

I don't know that we have seen (well could we?) Mat's medallion fail against an inverted weave but I believe that the quotation was referencing the breaking of Smerihage's disguise.  Maybe?

 

Well yeah, I just find the assertion about Mat's medallion odd. While he has been in the presence of Semirhage before, she wasn't disguised at the time.  I can't think of any time his medallion has failed to protect him from a direct weave. Aes Sedai have thrown things at him indirectly, and he was killed by one of Rhavin's lightning bolts, but that was an indirect effect as well.

[Mystica]

you lot are killing off Cadsy??  :o

She's got more chance to survive the LB than the whole Tower put together!

Besides, the Creator wouldn't dare let her be killed yet. Why she's very likely to box his ears and tell him to send her right back as she's not done with the boy yet.

 

(ps, only read page 1 lol)

[Luckers]

Well yeah, I just find the assertion about Mat's medallion odd. While he has been in the presence of Semirhage before, she wasn't disguised at the time.  I can't think of any time his medallion has failed to protect him from a direct weave. Aes Sedai have thrown things at him indirectly, and he was killed by one of Rhavin's lightning bolts, but that was an indirect effect as well.

 

Your speaking about direct weaves, weaves that directly touch Mat. My comment was in regaurds to Cadsuane breaking a distant weave, which Mat's medallion cannot achieve. Had Semirhage been disguised at her meeting with Mat, the disguise would have held unless she directly touched him (or maybe if she came very close). I'm afraid I don't really get what your getting at... are you suggesting otherwise?

 

Cadsuane does have a ter'angreal that works like Mat's, the two entwined moons, but since Mat's could not have broken a distant weave I maintain that it is likely that the ter'angreal that broke Semirhages disguise was a different ter'angreal; more than probably one of the fish.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thanks for the list, Luckers.

 

Given that, then with the exception of detecting male channelers simply by their presence, and the possible exception of breaking weaves at a distance, Nynaeve's set does everything Cadsuane's is known to do.  On the other hand, Nynaeve's well has a greater capacity, her angreal is stronger, her channeling detector differentiates between saidin and saidar, she has an armor ter'angreal, and a souped up mood ring.

 

No.  I don't see Cadsuane's set going to Nynaeve; Nynaeve's is better.  If Caddy is grooming her to be a sort of successor (something I can see) she'll help Nynaeve learn to use Nynaeve's own set, as she has already begun doing.

 

There are a couple of possibilities here (all assuming that Cadsuane does indeed die, and dies under circumstances where her killer does not take the set).  If Cadsuane meets Egwene before she dies, and Egwene makes the kind of impression I think she will, then Cadsuane might be content to leave it in Egwene's hands, not necessarily to use, but to dispense as Egwene sees fit. 

 

Alternatively, if Moiraine's return helps Rand become more human, and Moiraine manages to favorably impress Cadsuane (which I think will happen if they do meet), then Moiraine could be designated to receive it.

 

If Cadsuane dies without meeting Egwene, or Moiraine, but Nynaeve is around, I imagine she will take charge of the set, but merely to safeguard it, either for Egwene to decide about or Elayne to study.  Nynaeve seems to like her set well enough ... I doubt she wants Caddy's.

 

Actually, now that Lan is her husband, I could see Nynaeve giving the set to Moiraine, as well.

 

People I don't think will get it:

 

-Nynaeve, for all the reasons already stated.

 

-Aviendha.  Nynaeve likes Aviendha well enough, but she knows that Aviendha is not and will not become part of the Tower, and Nynaeve is Aes Sedai through and through now.  She's not going to give any of Caddy's set to Aviendha, and of course, neither is Cadsuane, assuming she's the one deciding.

 

-Rand.  Not that it would be any use to him personally, of course, but I mean he won't even have a real say in who gets it.  Which I don't think will be an issue, for him.

 

...

 

...

 

...

 

As I typed that last bit, I thought of one more possible scenario, which might negate my last statement.  If Cadsuane dies right in the middle of Tarmon Gaidon, Rand might get whoever is around to give it to Alivia, at least for the duration of the battle.  Alivia has already learned to use a similar set (Nynaeve's), and was quite effective at the Cleansing.  She has to "help him (Rand) die".  So, in that battle setting, I could see it being assigned to her, at least temporarily.

 

Nynaeve would certainly object to that, of course ...

 

That could be an interesting scene ...

[Luckers]

That last is why i voted for Alivia. I didn't give my reasons though, which were not as clear as yours. My suspicion is that if Caddy is going to die, it will be in circumstances so hectic that intelligent choice about who gets the ter'angreal is unlikely. In such an event I see Alivia ending up with it. Immediate need dictates action, and in such a situation, like at the Cleansing, Alivia is the obvious choice.

 

In the long run of course i see Alivia playing a role in Seanchan, and those toys will be key to such a role... but meh.

[Nerevar]

I'd prefer Egwene to get them simply because, though she is of good strength, against one of the Forsaken without a circle / angreal / ter'angreal to hand she is a bit inadequate. And as I would like to see Egwene do a bit of house cleaning with the blacks and Mesaana I think she will need them.

 

Plus as stated before if Cad dies it will most likely be Rand who decides where they go - probably a scene where the Aes'Sedai argue that it is their right to decide who gets them and he just ignores them as is his style.

 

We already know Rand and Egwene have a confrontation coming up - see Elaida's foretelling, maybe he knows she will be outraged with him and he brings Cads gear to try and buy her over. Though this is plain speculation and a bit wobbly.

 

[Luckers]

It doesn't fit with Rand's nature. He would give the ter'angreal to those he thought needed it, and Egwene would not occur to him in that manner.

[Nerevar]

But at the moment Rand is with Nynaeve, Alivia, Caddy and other Aes Sedai, only the first three does he have any trust with. Though not so much with Caddy. IF she dies in present company (seeing that a female channeler he does trust doesn't join up before then) it leaves Nyn and Alivia to be given the ter'angreal. As Robert and others stated Nyn already has the same versions of Cad's ter'angreals. So that leaves Alivia as the only viable option unless Rand takes them and travels off somewhere.

 

Besides making her a better fighter there isn't much reason giving them to her - though you could argue that he wants her to be strong to kill him but why would he need to make her stronger to kill him when he won't fight back?

 

Whereas there are reasons to give them to Egwene, to make her more secure as Amyrlin, to try and soften her against the inevitable confrontation, maybe to show her that Cadsuane was finally dead. Plus being child sweethearts - though at Rands current stone heartedness thats not a good reason, however as Cadsuane was meant to cure him of that before she goes...

 

Could you remind me who you voted for Luckers? I can't remember.

 

(sorry for swapping around the names to shortnames etc just being weird lol)

[Cadsuane]

I think it's folly to assume that Rand is going to have anything to do with it. He's got more important things to think about, and I'm pretty sure that if Caddy does die in his presence, without Nynaeve or another female channeler, he'll have more important things to do, immediately and long term, than worry about grabbing her ornaments. Does he even know what they are? It's possible he does, and possible he'll be in charge of them, but I think many other situations are much more likely.

 

I also wouldn't be too surprised if Caddy has made other arrangements. She's acknowledged that she may drop dead at any moment, it would be like her, imo, to have planned who gets something as useful as those ornaments when she finally does croak.

[Charlz Guybon]

But at the moment Rand is with Nynaeve, Alivia, Caddy and other Aes Sedai, only the first three does he have any trust with. Though not so much with Caddy. IF she dies in present company (seeing that a female channeler he does trust doesn't join up before then) it leaves Nyn and Alivia to be given the ter'angreal. As Robert and others stated Nyn already has the same versions of Cad's ter'angreals. So that leaves Alivia as the only viable option unless Rand takes them and travels off somewhere.

 

Nynaeve would be the sister in charge with Caddy dead, and she would likely take the ter'angreal into her custody. She would be likely to give them to Egwene, she certainly wouldn't want to give them to Alivia.

[Luckers]

I think it's folly to assume that Rand is going to have anything to do with it. He's got more important things to think about, and I'm pretty sure that if Caddy does die in his presence, without Nynaeve or another female channeler, he'll have more important things to do, immediately and long term, than worry about grabbing her ornaments. Does he even know what they are? It's possible he does, and possible he'll be in charge of them, but I think many other situations are much more likely.

 

He does know what they are, and he has been shown how valuable they are. So yes, i do think he would involve himself if Cadsuane were to die.

 

So that leaves Alivia as the only viable option unless Rand takes them and travels off somewhere.

 

Besides making her a better fighter there isn't much reason giving them to her - though you could argue that he wants her to be strong to kill him but why would he need to make her stronger to kill him when he won't fight back?

 

Well, again we have direct comments from Rand about how he wants Alivia trained, more prepared and more powerful. And if Cadsuane dies, than it will be in the heat of battle, in which case it falls to a concideration of weapons. As was shown at the Cleansing, Alivia is the obvious choice under that criteria. Indeed, I think it likely that she would be his only consideration under any criteria.

 

Whereas there are reasons to give them to Egwene, to make her more secure as Amyrlin, to try and soften her against the inevitable confrontation, maybe to show her that Cadsuane was finally dead. Plus being child sweethearts - though at Rands current stone heartedness thats not a good reason, however as Cadsuane was meant to cure him of that before she goes...

 

I don't really see any reasons for him to give them to Egwene aside from some half-romantic idea of her being powerful. For one, there is no personal line between them anymore, as both have shown in their thoughts. Secondly from Rand's point of view Egwene would not be fighting... she's amyrlin, she's Egwene and she would therefore have no need of such ter'angreal. But that's beyond the point, because frankly Egwene would not even occur to Rand. If he were truly going to give it to someone outside of his circle of channelers, it would more likely be Elayne, or Aviendha.

 

As for this idea that Rand would in any way seek to bribe Egwene out of the confrontation that is coming... I simply see it as unlikely to the extreme. It does not fit Rand's mindset even remotely. If he even conciders that he may have annoyed her--which i doubt--it will be a more general concideration of how he might have annoyed the Aes Sedai as a whole, and that wouldn't be answered by giving Egwene ter'angreal that in the end would be ultimately useless to her. If he paused for even an instance to concider Egwene's personal fury at him, he'd simply shrug it off... he has more important things to do.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rand won't even consider giving them to Egwene ... by which I mean that the thought will never even occur to him, not that he would have strenuous objections to her obtaining them (unless it was the middle of a battle, as Luckers pointed out, and he needed Alivia to have the set).

 

But Rand doesn't even think of Egwene among the people who he can count on anymore.  In fact, of all the people who left with the group from Emond's Field, she is the one he trusts least.  Mat and Perrin left on missions given by him.  Nynaeve and Lan have been with him, basically working for him.  Thom left on a mission given by Rand.  Moiraine died (as he thinks) saving his life.  Only Egwene left for her own purposes, and those purposes put her at the head of a group that has given Rand alot of grief.

 

Rand probably still has genuine affection for Egwene ... but he doesn't trust her.

[Darkness Incarnated]

I can't see Rand even thinking about giving them to Egwene as well. Elayne and Aviendha are very much more likely to get them than Egwene. Rand doesn't buy people, he tells them, and if they don't comply, he balefires them.

 

As Luckers said, Rand is probably not aware that Egwene is angry with him, thus would not even consider giving them to her as a mollifying gift. Personally I think he will try to be kind to her, for childhood's memories' sake, but if she tries to step on his foot, well, kindness will fly out of the window.

 

Alivia is a very good candidate to get the set, if Rand has a say in it, he would want her armed to the teeth--primarily for her own survival--not to mention that she's the most likely person to put them to the best use (her immense strength, and experience).

[Nerevar]

I can't see Rand even thinking about giving them to Egwene as well. Elayne and Aviendha are very much more likely to get them than Egwene. Rand doesn't buy people, he tells them, and if they don't comply, he balefires them.

 

Sorry but the last bit just seems really foolish.

 

To the rest of the arguments against Egwene I haven't really been convinced, its either Egwene or Moiraine in my mind. Though we'll see when AMoL comes out, and I fall on my butt on half of the theories I've supported  ::)

[Darkness Incarnated]

What seems foolish? Rand doesn't of course balefire people when they refuse to do his biding; I simply meant that he usually doesn't seek to negotiate with people, he orders them about (and they usually comply). Can you come up with instances where he does just what you propose? (Buy off people) As Luckers said, it's not in his nature. Again, he's most probably not aware that Egwene is p**sed off with him, he's not aware that they'll have a confrontation, so there's no tangible reason why he should consider her specifically.

Is the Elayne and Aviendha bit what seems foolish? Put yourself in his shoes. Those [ter']angreals can be very helpful. He's a man in love. Who is he going to think of first, his ladies or his former sweetheart? Why would he be more concerned about the former sweetheart (that he doesn't trust) appearing as a strong Amyrlin (sp) over the increased wellbeing of his ladies, should they get the set? (That's how he'd see it).

Were you in Egwene's shoes, would you consider the 'gift' enough to appease your mind? Considering how she is now, she'd consider it an insult. The way she perceives it, he has wronged the Tower, not her as an individual; she wouldn't allow him to get off the hook so easily, with a small gift. Rand knows that. 'Egwene was always a sharp bargainer', his own words. Even if he considered giving her the 'gift', he would dismiss the idea.

But in the end, as Cadsuane said, there should be way more important stuff for him to do instead of deciding who should get those toys.