M and Ps

[Guest cwestervelt]

I hate to break it to you Rob, but Manetheren is well on the way to being restored.  While Perrin has told the Seanchan he has no such intentions, the matter is out of his hands.

 

The idea was established in peoples minds by the end of The Shadow Rising.  When Perrin took the banner out of the Two Rivers later, that solidified the idea by him giving an unwitting stamp of approval.  Even had he left them behind, it may have been too late anyway.  The name was already spreading fast.  If people will always come to the standard of the Golden Crane, you can figure that much more so for the banner of Manetheren.  News of the resurgence of Menetheren had already reached Caemlyn by The Fires of Heaven.  People aren't going to care what Elayne thinks about it.  After all, Andor left them to fend for themselves against Trollocs and Whitecloaks, so why should they get any say in what happens in the Two Rivers now.  Just look at the Nehterland's failure to regain control over Indonesia following World War II and you have a similar situation.

 

The second, and possibly more important thing that happened is that Alliander, Queen of Ghealdan, swore allegience to Perrin by her own volition.  That action established one person, Perrin, as the accepted ruler over the region formerly known as Menetheren.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Hey, I had forgotten about that bit about Ghealden.

 

Well, this is probably one of those plot lines that won't be resolved in the course of the 12th book. At least, Elayne won't be able to give it her full attention until after the LB.

[Digbe]

Wait, what happens when you get 4 thousand posts?

 

You become a member  8)

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

What is that supposed to mean? It already says "member" underneath my name?

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I hate to break it to you Rob, but Manetheren is well on the way to being restored.

 

Well, if you'd like to bet something, I'll be happy to take your money on it.

 

People flocking to a banner doth not a nation make.  And the Golden Crane is the perfect example.

 

By the way, Perrin may well rule a nation that stretches uninterrupted from the area that was the Blight, through Saldaea, through the Two Rivers, and encompassing Ghealdan.  Much of that area was Manetheren anciently.  It doesn't make his new nation Manetheren.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Full restoration of Manetheren is not something that would fit within the scope of the series.  Unless we are given an epilogue that spans the better part of a century anyway.  However, 50 to 100 years after Tarmon Gaidon and barring another complete breaking and rending of the continent, Manetheren stands a good chance of existing not just in the hearts and minds of its inhabitants, but in name as well.  Whether you like it or not, its going to happen.

 

Perrin, through know deliberate actions of his own, has become overlord of the area of Manetheren.  It had nothing whatsoever to do with what he wanted and it never did.  Perrin has become as much a symbol that they are rallying behind as the banner at this point.  That is why, for all his efforts, he was never able to put a stop to it.  His chances of holding back the tide were better.  The first spark was struck by Moiraine early in The Eye of the World.  That spark was then fanned into open flame by Verin and Allana in The Shadow Rising.  It has been building for several years by this point, and it won't be stopped easily, if it can be stopped.  Even the Seanchan are afraid of what the banner signifies and see the idea of Manetheren as a major threat to them.

 

It seems to me that only Lan considers Malkier dead and that the other survivors didn't give up on Malkier, they gave up on Lan.  They were always ready to fight for what they lost, he was just never willing to lead them.  Now that the Golden Crane has been raised, if no one thinks they can make the nation live again, all they will see is a dead symbol and they won't answer the call.  If Lan raises an army behind the Golden Crane, the nation of Malkier lives, even if they don't reclaim their land.  The nation lives in the hearts and souls of the people, not just the ground under their feet.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

That last sentence was very profound, cwest, even outside of the context of the story...

[RobertAlexWillis]

I understand where you're coming from, cwestervelt, but I disagree in full.

 

What lives in the "hearts and minds" of the people who Perrin leads is not Manetheren.  Its the Two Rivers.  And Ghealdan.  And soon to be Saldaea.  But most of all, its Perrin Goldeneyes, and Faile Bashere, not Aemon, or Eldrene, or Caar One-Hand.

 

The restoration of the old goes entirely counter to Jordan's whole premise for these books; the Wheel rolls forward, not back.  The beginning of the Fourth Age is not going to see the old, dead nations reborn.  It will see new, different nations.  Like the one comprising what used to be Ghealdan, the Two Rivers, and Saldaea.  A very different nation than Manetheren, geographically, socially, and culturally.

 

Malkier is much, much more likely to return than Manetheren.  Malkier is only one generation dead, where Manetheren is 2000+ years dead and gone.  Even so, Malkier will not be revived.  The Seven Towers are broken, the Thousand Lakes soiled.  What comes in the Fourth Age will be new, not the Third Age regurgitated once again.

 

Frankly, I will be surprised if Andor and Tear, Cairhien and Illian, Shienar and Arafel, Murandy and Kandor, or any of the nations survive Tarmon Gaidon in their present form.  Tarabon, Amadicia, and Altara are already essentially gone.  Arad Doman is set to follow their fate.  No nation survived the Trolloc Wars, or Hawkwing.  Tarmon Gaidon will be even more transforming.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I have a feeling some trollocs will be sent through the ways, but I can't remember which waygates that Loial convinced the Elders to lock...

[Guest cwestervelt]

I think all of the Gates, with the exception of the ones in the Blight, and Shadar Logoth, were supposed to have been closed.  Then again, there may be one or two that were overlooked.  A large number of Trollocs did manage to get into western Tear to attack the manor at which Rand was staying.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well, we shouldn't have to worry about the gates at Shadar Logoth anymore...

 

Also, Im wondering how much of an impression Fain made on Machin Shin. We've already seen it feel hatred for Rand like Fain has, to the point where Rand can't even enter the Ways. I wonder if it would feel that hatred for Trollocs. Actually, I take that back, I suppose after CoS, when all those Trollocs had managed to get through to Shadar Logoth, we know the answer to that question. However, is it possible that Fain could consciously get it to do so? In order to spite the DO, who he hates almost as much as he hates Rand?

 

[The Lost One]

Also, Im wondering how much of an impression Fain made on Machin Shin. We've already seen it feel hatred for Rand like Fain has, to the point where Rand can't even enter the Ways.

 

I must have missed this.  I thought Machin Shin really did not have any feelings/goals/direction.  I thought it just was basically something that was hungry for souls or whatever it eats.  Is it taking instructions from someone/something?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

When it met Fain, it embraced him as one of its own.

 

And Fain managed to make an impression on Machin Shin, so now Machin Shin can sense Rand much in the same way Fain can, and it also has the same hatred for Rand as Fain.

 

Also, when Rand meets up with Riatin, a thick mist appears, somewhat like Mashadar. And this mist announced the presence of Fain. So now I am wondering how much ability Fain actually has...

[Guest cwestervelt]

Your thinking of a bubble of evil.  That mist had nothing to do with Mashadar, Machin Shin or Fain. 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Oh okay, thanks. Im just now rereading the series, and I haven't gotten there yet.

 

Anyways, when Rand tried to go through the ways and Machin Shin was waiting for him and tried to get through, could it actually have left the ways?

 

I mean, it appeared that it might have if they hadn't closed the Ways really fast.

[Guest cwestervelt]

It was always believed that Machin Shin was a creature of the Ways and thus bound to them and unable to leave.  Is that was an Aes Sedai assumption it isn't really a guarantee.  I suspect it was still contained, but stretching the surface of the portal in an attempt to engulf victims and draw them into the Ways.  There is absolutely nothing that I can think of to support that though.  Only one person really knows what would have happened had that Gate remained open longer, and his answer would likely be RAFO simply because he may or may not want to go back to it.

[Breaker of Light]

the fog was from fain, not a bubble of evil. the Black Wind cant leave the ways, or it would have killed rand in caemlyn when they tried to use the ways, and the black wind was at the edge of the waygate, but it didn't leave the ways. Im just saying it would totally sweet if perrin would like, do a rebellion and like regain manetheren before the last battle, and then the dark one could win for all i care. oh, and what that one guy said.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

the Black Wind cant leave the ways

Obviously Rand didn't think this was worth testing, or they wouldn't have bothered to shut the ways fast like they did to keep the Black Wind in there.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Sorry, but the fog was a bubble of evil.  Fain works by corrupting people, not controlling the elements.  Any time all hell breaks loose like it did on that occaision, you are dealing with bubbles.

[Tenshin_Xo]

Despite the massing of both Cairhienin and Tairen rebels in the woods, Rand does nothing about them for several days. When he does go to investigate them, in disguise and secretly, Toram offers to spar with him, using practice swords. A bubble of evil interrupts their mock combat, and Toram uses the distraction to strike a hard blow to Rand's side, before realizing the full extent of the danger they are all in. He allies himself with Rand's group (which also includes Cadsuane Melaidhrin and several other Aes Sedai who were meeting with the rebels) until he discovers who Rand actually is, at which point he runs away through the fog.

-Wot Wiki

 

The memory rose of Toram Riatin as last seen, running off into a strange fog that could take on solid form and kill, a fog that resisted the One Power.  The Shadow had walked outside the walls of Cairhien that day.    - CoT prologue, p.74

 

If it had been a mini-mashadar, to touch it would have been instant death.  It was indeed a bubble of evil, or the touch of the Shadow, whichever terminology you prefer.  There is no evidence that Fain had anything to do with it.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I suspect it was still contained, but stretching the surface of the portal in an attempt to engulf victims and draw them into the Ways.  There is absolutely nothing that I can think of to support that though.

 

I agree with that assessment, and the way that the threshold barrier of the Waygate was being extended as Machin Shin tried to escape is indicative, if not total proof.