Rand's Rolling Gateways of death

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually Rand and Logain discuss "where they went". Dialogue as follows (skipping Lews Therin's unrelated commentary):

 

Logain: "Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied your weave exactly."

 

Rand: "It doesn't matter where they went. Shadowspawn can't survive passing through a gateway."

 

Logain: "People will find groups of dead Trollocs and maybe Myrdraal without a mark on them."

 

Rand: "Not too many in any one place, though. The destination shifts every time a Deathgate opens."

 

(Knife of Dreams, Vows, p.413)

 

So, it is clear that ...

 

1) Some Shadowspawn were not killed by the edge opening and closing, but by passing through.

 

2) A Deathgate does act as a regular gateway for the length of time it is open. Rand and co. did not visually see the destination from their vantage point because they were looking at the back of the gateways.

[Luckers]

Shadowspawn cannot' date=' i think, go through gateways because as constructs or bioengineered(you choose term) they lack something that natural beings have. Soul, spirit, or something else, and when they pass through the gateway they cease living. Maybe gateway "dematerialize" and "rematerialize" you and that something reactivates you(essentially cpr for the soul). Without it there dead.[/quote']

 

The soul is the aspect of the body that dreams, we've seen this through when Perrin was hunting Faile and felt like 'one who had lost his soul'. We also know that Trollocs and other shadowspawn dream, Lanfear says as much. Therefore i conclude that they do, in fact, have souls.

 

Ok guys if you read in KoD you will notice that when Rand/LTT makes them they aren't the same as a regular gate. They opened to darkness i think if anything they might have opened to the spaces between the pattern. You know like Moggy was afraid of in LoC when Egwene asked her how to do it. I might be wrong but i honestly don't think they opened to anyplace real. They just used the razor sharp edges to kill not to transport.

 

Far more likely that is because they were to the place where you go to skim. Which makes sense, to open a gateway you must know the space you are opening the gateway on, which would be unprofitable to their use as a weapon. But to open they gate to the skimming reality... Easy, no mess, and no chance of the exit point killing some poor farmer and his cow.

[RobertAlexWillis]

"Far more likely that is because they were to the place where you go to skim. Which makes sense, to open a gateway you must know the space you are opening the gateway on, which would be unprofitable to their use as a weapon. But to open they gate to the skimming reality... Easy, no mess, and no chance of the exit point killing some poor farmer and his cow."

 

This would be true except that Rand's POV makes a clear point that, "The familiar silvery-blue vertical streaks appeared, spaced out not far from the manor house, ground Rand knew well, rotating into - not openings, but the misty back of a gateway, four paces by four." (I added the emphasis, from Knife of Dreams, Vows, p.410)

 

This deliberately states that Rand knew the ground well, so the gates did not have to be Skimming gates, and that they opened not to blackness, but appeared misty, because they were facing away from the manor house (so that the charging Trollocs/Myrdraal would run through the entrance side).

 

Also, let me requote the dialogue that follows:

 

Logain: "Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied your weave exactly."

 

Rand: "It doesn't matter where they went. Shadowspawn can't survive passing through a gateway."

 

Logain: "People will find groups of dead Trollocs and maybe Myrdraal without a mark on them."

 

Rand: "Not too many in any one place, though. The destination shifts every time a Deathgate opens."

 

(Knife of Dreams, Vows, p.413)

 

So, Logain (who knows the difference between a skimming gate and a travelling gate) says that people are going to find some, and Rand agrees, but says that the DESTINATION SHIFTS. So they don't all just reopen to Skimmy-space. Sorry for those poor farmers, but at least they spread them around.

[Luckers]

You're right. It seems pointlessly dangerous though. Surely the Age of Legenders realised this?

 

Though, on the other hand, the likelyhood of a gateway opened at random being at the level where they'd hit someone (ground level) out of all the space of the world seems low. Far more likely is the idea that they'd open in mid-air, or underground, or under the sea... still... seems pointlessly dangerous given the skimming-realm.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I agree. But it is what it is.

[dreago]

You're right. It seems pointlessly dangerous though. Surely the Age of Legenders realised this?quote]

 

It's already been shown that like the Aes Sedai, the AoL's are secure in believing that because it has been like this, then it is and always will be.

ex. Severing cannot be healed, weaves can't be picked apart(Elayne and Avi do it to a Gateway), and so on.

 

It works, why bother?

[Luckers]

It was a intentional construction made during the war of power. I doubt they would construct something flawd in that manner when they knew perfectly well that the skimming gates would work just as well. And then certainly not be arrogant about it. That sort of arrogance is reserved for long-held beliefs.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Perhaps there is a danger in dumping unattended matter into skimming space that we don't know about? Or maybe they just didn't consider it enough of a danger to bother with. Unfortunately we only got what actually happened, not why it was made that way. And maybe Jordan just didn't think of it. He's admitted to that a couple of times on other issues.

[dreago]

Not saying this because they're arrogant, though they were/are, but my point was "if it ain't broke don't fix it". No one(discountoning shadowspawn) was ever hurt by the destination end of the Gateway. So, why bother?

[Luckers]

Thats not true, an opening gateway at either end will kill someone if they happen to be standing there. It's why Elayne only travelled to a place six days ride out of Ebou Dar. And we have seen Sammael kill a man with an opening gateway.

[dreago]

Sorry, I meant Deathgates.

[rochaid]

the deathgates were gateways dreago

[dreago]

yes their Gateways, but that i know of no one has been harmed by the destination end of a Deathgate

like it was posted before they may open a couple of miles underground or or above the ground (upper atmosphere maybe) or in the ocean

[Rumor]

Rand does say that it doesn't matter where the destination is, but he doesn't say that when forming the weaves there is no control over where they end up...since this is an AoL construct that was woven by LTT, perhaps there is something built into the weave to have the destinations be remote, relatively safe places. If they are pure and simple gateways, then on some level, the channeler has to know what the destination is...and if they are a modified gateway, perhaps a "safe" destination is built into the weave.

 

I know that the fact Logain doesn't know where all of the gateways went tends to punch a hole in the theory, but perhaps it is a unconscious choosing of destination so quick that with creating so many so quickly in the course of the battle, it just never registered. And since Rand was not in control of himself, his statements could simply be masking his own ignorance of what exactly LTT had done.

[Gentled Ben]

perhaps there is something built into the weave to have the destinations be remote, relatively safe places.

 

I like that idea, but how would that work? It would have to be some kind of "thinking" program built into the weave, else it would be dumping people over what was desert, for example, in the AOL, but is now Chachin, or is there some other kind of mechanism within the weave that might ensure the safety of those on or near the opening end of the deathgate?

[Rumor]

I kind of think that the channelers themselves are unconsciously (or consciously, but very very quickly) choosing places that are likely to be safe while they are channeling the deathgates, but (and please forgive me if this is impossible...I am not super scientific and haven't really delved into the what's-actually-possible arena with channeling) I would think if Traveling is possible, then perhaps a probe is also possible. We have seen no evidence of this, but lots of abilities in channeling seem to pop up throughout the series, so, if it's possible to probe a destination for living creatures before weaving the gateway, then that sort of thing could be part of the weave for the deathgate (if it is a modified gateway). This is probably pretty far-fetched, but I'm just putting it out there as one possible way that some sort of safety could be built into the weaves...as I said, I think the simpler and more likely explanation is that there is a choice made by the channelers as to where the shadowspawn go.

[Gentled Ben]

Yeah, that might be. Choosing a destination on some level below consciousness, like intuitively and sub-conciously thinking "middle of the Caralain Grass," and if someone, or something (like a deer or rabbit) happens by at the wrong time, no one would likely no, and the chances of that are really slim, to the point of being negligible, anyway.

 

That would eliminate MY concern, which was the dramatic change in landscape after the Breaking. Chances are, this will be one of the loose ends that remain after the end of the series, as few people have probably questioned it. It takes a special breed to really pick apart an odd point like this one.

[Rumor]

You are right...we will likely never know for sure about this one. Oh well. *sigh*

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, we have proof that a gateway's destination can be subconsciously chosen for effect, rather than physical placement. When Aviendha made her gateway in The Far Snows, she just wanted to "get away", and get as far away as possible. She had no specific destination in mind, she simply had an intent. That is why for a travelling gateway, it is more important to know your current location well, rather than your destination point. So, the gateway opened halfway around the world. If a channelers intent is to simply dispose of the target, as it clearly is with a deathgate, it is very reasonable to assume that deliberately remote locations are subconsciously chosen. Actually, I would think about a foot over the deepest parts of the ocean would be best.

[drakhon]

While we do not know if a "life probe" as described is possible, we have seen one more like a doorbell.

 

Abruptly a vertical slash of silver appeared at the far end of the room, bright against the tapestries hanging between the heavy gilded mirrors, and a crystalline chime rang loud. Her eyebrows rose in surprise. Someone remembered the courtesies of a more civilized Age, it seemed. Standing, she forced the plain band of gold down against the ruby ring on her smallest finger and embraced saidar through it before channeling the web that would sound an answering chime for whoever wanted to open a gateway. The angreal did not offer much, yet anyone who thought they knew her strength would find a shock.

 

The gateway opened, and two women in nearly identical red-and-black silk dresses stepped through warily.

 

The Path of Daggers, Chapter 12: New Alliances

 

It shows us that something other than the gateway opening to slice anything in that location is possible.

 

As far as Deathgates go, however, I'd have to say I agree with RobertAlexWillis. The destination is most likely a subconscious decision. I think tossing the Shadowspawn out into the Blight would be more appropriate though

[RobertAlexWillis]

Lol ... yeah, about 40-50 feet above the Myrdraal Pub & Tavern.

[Rumor]

Hehehe yeah, that would be perfect.

[Gentled Ben]

"Another round on the Lord of the Morning, Boys; drink up!" :lol: