About Amalasan

[DragonSpawn]

    I read a bit and ran across what appears to be a bit of a contradiction. Specifically about Amalasan and the war of the 2nd Dragon. He was captured by Aes Sedai and dragged to Tar Valon. Then it is mentioned that his followers managed to fight and shed blood in the inner courtyard of the White Tower itself in sight of him before being repulsed back and defeated.

  What I don't get about this is simply;

 

    This was arguably during the height of Tar Valon's power. Also what could possess normal soldiers to go on such a suicidal mission to assault the White Tower. So I can presume he must have been beloved and had an inspirational personality that instead of flocking they rallied in a last stand to free him.

    Also the second point is that RJ keeps telling in the first two books how hard it is to kill Aes Sedai. Yet his men made it to the inner courtyard of the White Tower with an army. In other words the inner sanctum of the Tower, the rest being overrun.

    So this means first they defeated Tar Valon's guards. Acceptable enough.

 

Then they marched into Tar Valon itself. So I assume they killed all Aes Sedai on the walls of Tar Valon to finally make it into the city itself.

 

  Then they make it to the walls of the White Tower. Kill/incapitate all the Aes Sedai trying to block the entrance of the Tower.

 

  Then they fight their way through the outer courtyard and walls of the White Tower. Again obviously overrunning and killing any Aes Sedai who would try to stop them.

 

  Then they reach the actual inner Tower where Amalasan himself is sitting. Only there the Aes Sedai+warders+remainder of guard manage to drive them off.

 

 

++ I assume that the Aes Sedai would not just let the army march into Tar Valon so they would naturally fight them to the best of their ability at the walls of Tar Valon.

 

+++ I also assume the Aes Sedai would really not want to let the army get into Tar Valon itself. And so would fight very hard at the entrance of Tar Valon. Yet were also overrun.

 

++++ Only in the heart of the Tower. They manage to through combined effort stop the intruders.

 

 

 

      SO my point is how should this be possible seeing how RJ normally compares the Aes Sedai to half-immortal deities in their abilities. Yet I have to assume in this venture quite a few Aes Sedai had to have died. Is this a contradiction in itself? Or is RJ trying to tell us that if you are determined enough even a rabble of fanatically loyal DragonSworn can almost overwhelm the most powerful order there is? Or is there something I am overlooking?

[Luckers]

There were in fact two armies involved in the attempt to free Amalasan, the first being led by Sawyn Maculhene and numbering some fifty thousand, and the second being led by Elinde Motheneos, who was supposedly a renegade Aes Sedai, and numbering 'larger' than the first, though how much larger is unstated.

 

So a force of somewhere between one hundred thousand and one hundred and twenty-five thousand were involved in the assault. At this tage the Tower Guard had been decimated by an earlier attempt to capture Amalasan, and supposedly this force was able to gain relatively easy access to the city. They were able to capture two of the Alindrelle bridges in complete suprise, and encountered no try opposition until they reached the Tower itself (this is likely in large part because that they attacked during the trial; according to Tower Law all initiates of the Tower are rquired to attend such trials).

 

In the end it had as much to do with failures on behalf of the Aes Sedai as successes on the part of the invading army, even so due to numbers the Aes Sedai had difficulty repulsing Amlasan's followers until Hawkwing entered the city and joined the fight.

[bcxanth]

If I remember correctly, when Egwene was taking her Accepted test and was in her incarnation as Amyrlin, she takes off to rescue Rand where he's being gentled. While watching the scene from the rooftop she thinks something like every AS, every Novice, every scullery maid, would be there in the Traitor's Court to see that the Tower's law will be upheld.  Something like that.  Therefore, although there may be some guards on the bridges and such, there would be no AS on the walls or anything like that. They'd all be watching the Gentling.

[DragonSpawn]

There were in fact two armies involved in the attempt to free Amalasan, the first being led by Sawyn Maculhene and numbering some fifty thousand, and the second being led by Elinde Motheneos, who was supposedly a renegade Aes Sedai, and numbering 'larger' than the first, though how much larger is unstated.

 

So a force of somewhere between one hundred thousand and one hundred and twenty-five thousand were involved in the assault. At this tage the Tower Guard had been decimated by an earlier attempt to capture Amalasan, and supposedly this force was able to gain relatively easy access to the city. They were able to capture two of the Alindrelle bridges in complete suprise, and encountered no try opposition until they reached the Tower itself (this is likely in large part because that they attacked during the trial; according to Tower Law all initiates of the Tower are rquired to attend such trials).

 

In the end it had as much to do with failures on behalf of the Aes Sedai as successes on the part of the invading army, even so due to numbers the Aes Sedai had difficulty repulsing Amlasan's followers until Hawkwing entered the city and joined the fight.

 

    Then it seems very ungrateful of the Aes Sedai to later attempt to manipulate Artur Hawkwing after he saved their Tower a sacking if that is what happened. Since somehow as powerful as Aes Sedai are, I believe they would have trouble repulsing over 100,000+ men in urban warfare. Seems honor is a word lacking with the Aes Sedai. Makes one wonder if perhaps they shouldn't have deserved a brutal sacking of the Tower to teach them some humility and caution in their actions.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the Aes Sedai cannot use the OP to kill unless in defense of themself or their warder.

 

So they wouldnt have been able to help the Tower Guard anyways...

[Luckers]

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the Aes Sedai cannot use the OP to kill unless in defense of themself or their warder.

 

There is some debate about when the oaths were put in use; in the story there are indications that it might not have been until during the War of a Hundred Years despite other comments referring to their implementation during the Trolloc Wars, or in some cases during the years of the Covenant.

 

Then it seems very ungrateful of the Aes Sedai to later attempt to manipulate Artur Hawkwing after he saved their Tower a sacking if that is what happened. Since somehow as powerful as Aes Sedai are, I believe they would have trouble repulsing over 100,000+ men in urban warfare. Seems honor is a word lacking with the Aes Sedai. Makes one wonder if perhaps they shouldn't have deserved a brutal sacking of the Tower to teach them some humility and caution in their actions.

 

Ungrateful is just the beginning of it, though these particular actions were more Bonwhin's alone than that of the Aes Sedai as a whole--indeed several Aes Sedai including all those who originally captured Amalasan were birched or exiled by oposing Bonwhin or aiding Hawkwing. It wasn't just in the issue of the attack on the Tower either; the issues began with Bonwhin taking exception to Artur Hawkwing bringing an army into Tar Valon lands (which later it turned out that he was asked by Aes Sedai to do). Following that, and then the fact that Artur Hawkwing saved Tar Valon, it ruffled her pride. That began her twenty year campeign to see an end to Artur Hawkwing--actions which ironically led to him conquering all of the Westlands.

 

As a result Bonwhin was stilled, so the Aes Sedai were honest about the way she had been acting... of course it was twenty years too late... but yeah.

[Darkness Incarnated]

When I think about it there are stuff that don't make sense. I can't remember how many Shaido were at Dumai's Well, but suppose Aes Sedai make those walls of Air the Asha'man were making on strategic points (like bridges or entrances). Wouldn't they easily hold off an attack? This applies as well to other situations (sorry, can't give examples right now) throughout the books where such an easy method could have been successfully used (though perhaps not against another channeler).

[BrainFireBob]

1) The Aes Sedai were taken by surprise, unable to defend themselves until the enemy was at least within the city, and possibly within the Tower grounds- not walled, btw.

 

2) The Oath against using the power as a weapon was, by internal evidence, introduced during the Trolloc Wars, perhaps in conjunction with the First Oath, to try and prevent/eliminate Darkfriends without outright admitting the existence of the Black, hence the danger of referencing those years by those in the know about the Chronicles.

 

3) There are a thousand Aes Sedai today. Their numbers have dwindled, but let's say there were five times that many. Perhaps one as strong as Cadsuane, perhaps none (Caddie being the strongest in at least a millenia). They were facing over a hundred thousand soldiers, at least some "traitor" channellers  by rumor, and all it takes is one arrow. Mind, it was a concerted attack AND a disorganized, individualistic resistance.

 

4) Hawkwing saved their bacon, not a desperate rearguard action. He- against the express orders of the Amyrlin, the equivalent of being an early Medieval Catholic king and giving the Pope the finger- assaulted the rear of Amalasan's forces, killed at least one of the two commanders, and drove them from the city until Amalasan was gentled. This was after embarassing the collected nations of the time by having the smallest army, and being able to defeat Amalasan by himself.

 

5) The White Tower has always, always pretended toward omniscience AND omnipotence. Hawkwing's actions tarnished both, as well as personally flouting the authority of the Amyrlin- and at the time, no-one was allowed to take their army into White Tower lands. So, his neighbors invaded on some pretext, and when he applied for White Tower intercession- the normal end to wars at the time- they didn't deign to answer, although everyone who attacked him mysteriously gained multiple Aes Sedai advisors. In all probability, he was looking for terms and planning on conceding- instead, he was forced to fight. Unluckily for Bonwhin, he was a genius.

 

6) She then tried a docile "working with Hawkwing" policy, resulting in the majority of his governors being Aes Sedai. Ishamael put paid to that- possibly with the Pattern's collusion- by instilling a paranoia of the Tower in Hawkwing- who probably suspected what Bonwhin was doing all along.

 

That all make sense there, chief?

[Luckers]

2) The Oath against using the power as a weapon was, by internal evidence, introduced during the Trolloc Wars, perhaps in conjunction with the First Oath, to try and prevent/eliminate Darkfriends without outright admitting the existence of the Black, hence the danger of referencing those years by those in the know about the Chronicles.

 

I'm sorry but whilst i agree that there is evidence in suggestion that the oaths were introduced prior to the War of a Hundred years, the claim that some form of internal evidence states this is inaccurate concidering quotes from Aes Sedai within the text have been directlty contridictory. The only direct qualitative statement in reguards to a timeline is the appearence of ageless Aes Sedai at Rhuidean, but despite assumption that comes after a statement in reguards to Aiel fighting men in steel referring to Hawkwings invasion of the Waste, which took place in the later years of his life nearly 40 years following Amalasan's death, and therefore the incident at Rhuidean occured during the very late days of the War of a Hundred Years (during the grandsons life).

 

Incidently i should address Wotmania's FAQ entryhttp://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=67... unfortunatly it is essentially conjecture. And badly made conjecture at that. They enter with the premiss that they think that the oath rod would be an asset in the formation of the tower, with no evidence that it was ever used or indeed that the oaths or the goals directed in such oaths were ever a concideration, and then they go on to address Sheriams statement as if it is in some way contradictory to some other statement of fact.

 

For example.

 

Or is it? [referring to the use of the oaths by early Aes Sedai] Jordan may have made a mistake somewhere along the line. There have been conflicting quotes. While the previous explanation fits very nicely and is backed up both in the Guide and the glossaries, Sheriam begs to differ.

 

I'm sorry... what conflicting quotes? Where in the Guide or the Glossaries? There is baseless suppostition, and then an actual quote.

 

That question sums the issue. The sad thing is that i agree more or less with their opinion. But i must stress for the sake of arguement that there is not such difinitive answer, and not even evidence of such.

 

 

[callandor]

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the Aes Sedai cannot use the OP to kill unless in defense of themself or their warder.

 

So they wouldnt have been able to help the Tower Guard anyways...

 

i was thinking kinda the same thing. if the army had not been attacking speacifically them or theier warders, the aes sedai couldnt've done something.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Assuming, of course, that the oath to not use the power as a weapon unless threatened was in place by the time of the Trolloc Wars.

 

It might not have been.

 

 

But I  see some very good points in the way of what the Asha'man did at Dumais Wells. When they erected that shield, that wasnt for offensive purposes. The Aes Sedai could have done that.