the return of Moiraine in the last chapter in Towers of Midnight. Spoilers in case

[urrutiap]

Whether it was Brandon sanderson's idea to bring Moiraine back or whatever, i think having her return at the very last minutes ruins her so called sacrifice when she fought way back in the earlier books whenever she "died"

 

Her returning at the very last minute when Rand is about to screw around with the last seal, why bother bringing Moiraine back?

[wotfan4472]

It was foreseen. Min saw that she had a part to play, as far back as Book 1.

 

She saw sparks of light fighting the dark when it was just Moiraine and Nyneave alone in the room, and they exploded when she saw them both alone with Rand.

 

What she saw in images, was the full sealing of the Dark One. Withour Moiraine or Nyneave, Rand fails his mission. Egwene and Elayne would both betray him for their positions and the entities they lead. 

[Andra]

3 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

It was foreseen. Min saw that she had a part to play, as far back as Book 1.

 

She saw sparks of light fighting the dark when it was just Moiraine and Nyneave alone in the room, and they exploded when she saw them both alone with Rand.

 

What she saw in images, was the full sealing of the Dark One. Withour Moiraine or Nyneave, Rand fails his mission. Egwene and Elayne would both betray him for their positions and the entities they lead. 

And Min's only "if" viewing was about this.

For every other viewing (that she understood) what she saw happened no matter what anyone did to try and prevent it.  Only that one could go either way.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Also I would say it was clearly in the notes. The detailed story about what happened with the Finns to Lanfear and Moiraine. The subplot of Thom and Moiraine (though this Jordan never seemed to flesh out much, along with the letter and I'll tell you who killed your nephew lines, perhaps Jordan would have changed this, but Sanderson could hardly ignore such a big point in the notes). 

 

I agree it does seem a bit abrupt but also that it was rather inevitable. Maybe it should have happened earlier so she had more chance to critical in story? I dunno. 

 

For me, alot of the ending feels rushed and possibly this is just down to the story's exponential growth being brutally reined in so that it wouldn't go on for another 14 books. 

[chiamac]

5 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

For me, alot of the ending feels rushed and possibly this is just down to the story's exponential growth being brutally reined in so that it wouldn't go on for another 14 books. 

 

Well it felt rushed at first, with this "last battle" being brought up as something recent in the first few books. Then things balloon out without a real sense of time. I'm on Towers of Midnight now, and it's odd to now see a timeline set (as you said maybe for sanity of Brandon S. than anything else) that's pretty assertive compared to reading about a circus and the bowl of winds for chapters on end. 

Maybe it needed another book or two at the end, but then I'm sure more of that would have been Brandon making the books his own and adding more of his things, than trying to follow whatever notes and outlines were there. 


Back to the topic. I haven't got to that part of the books. I'm the kind of person who understands why Gandalf comes back, so that's fine at least. Time will tell for me if it's rushed or not. Although where I'm at now we're 30 days out and she hasn't been rescued, so this does seem more last minute than it needed to be. 

Edited October 10 by chiamac

[Sabio]

It was RJ, Brandon might have put his own spin on it but it was RJ's idea.  It also couldn't take place until Mat was ready.  Which would've rushed his story.

 

She couldn't show up too quickly or would've ruined much of why Rand needed Casudane.  Rand would have immediately gone back to Moiraine and pretty much made Cas pointless.

[Figs and Mice]

Rendering Cadsuane pointless and therefore removing her from the story completely would have been a magnificent contribution to the whole series 🙂

 

(OK , I know  - my personal bias , just can't stand the character. Sorry............. sort of.)

 

Moiraine & Thom did end up feeling a bit underdone but in truth I don't really have any problem with the timing of the rescue. Given all the other stuff various characters were up to I think it was necessary. 

 

Was a great episode in itself , anyway.

[wotfan4472]

On 10/10/2025 at 1:42 PM, Andra said:

And Min's only "if" viewing was about this.

For every other viewing (that she understood) what she saw happened no matter what anyone did to try and prevent it.  Only that one could go either way.

That if was only when she saw Mat, Perrin, Rand, Egwene together, was it an if. Which is clearly the Last Battle, before Rand entered the Pit Of Doom, which easily could have gone either way.

 

Rand, Nyneave and Moiraine alone showed certainty, enough to know that what those three were going to do was important. She just had no idea that sealing the Bore was that important a thing to do.

 

All the spark viewings fighting the darkness were their actions from the Merrilor meeting, to the Last Battle, to the sealing of the Bore, and only when Moiraine, Nyneave and Rand were together did the viewing show the sparks winning.

[Andra]

20 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

That if was only when she saw Mat, Perrin, Rand, Egwene together, was it an if. Which is clearly the Last Battle, before Rand entered the Pit Of Doom, which easily could have gone either way.

 

Rand, Nyneave and Moiraine alone showed certainty, enough to know that what those three were going to do was important. She just had no idea that sealing the Bore was that important a thing to do.

 

All the spark viewings fighting the darkness were their actions from the Merrilor meeting, to the Last Battle, to the sealing of the Bore, and only when Moiraine, Nyneave and Rand were together did the viewing show the sparks winning.

Actually, she mentioned a different specific viewing she had (without giving details) that referred directly to Moiraine and success or failure in the Last Battle.  It was different from the sparks that she saw not as a single event, but as a visualization of a continuing struggle.

"He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone..." is how she puts it one of the times she talks about it.

It's different from the times (like with Egwene and Gawyn) where she sees two courses of action leading to two different results.  In this one, the viewing itself implies uncertainty.

[Asthereal]

On 10/10/2025 at 10:44 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

For me, alot of the ending feels rushed and possibly this is just down to the story's exponential growth being brutally reined in so that it wouldn't go on for another 14 books. 

 

It felt like this for me too, in parts. But Sanderson was hired to finish it, first in one massive volume, and then in three shorter ones (as a 2k page book wouldn't make any money). His work was under heavy scrutiny from the publisher for especially books 12 (the return, very scary moment) and 14 (the last book, perhaps even scarier?). Brandon was forced to up the pace big time in order to get the story finished, but he would have sped up anyway. His own work is also a lot faster paced than Jordan's, especially in the description department. But I do think if he'd gotten free reign, he'd have ended up writing more than just these three books. Jordan was nowhere near finishing with Knife of Dreams, and Sanderson's a WoT superfan. I'm sure he had a ton of stuff he'd have liked to explore more.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

2 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

 

It felt like this for me too, in parts. But Sanderson was hired to finish it, first in one massive volume, and then in three shorter ones (as a 2k page book wouldn't make any money). His work was under heavy scrutiny from the publisher for especially books 12 (the return, very scary moment) and 14 (the last book, perhaps even scarier?). Brandon was forced to up the pace big time in order to get the story finished, but he would have sped up anyway. His own work is also a lot faster paced than Jordan's, especially in the description department. But I do think if he'd gotten free reign, he'd have ended up writing more than just these three books. Jordan was nowhere near finishing with Knife of Dreams, and Sanderson's a WoT superfan. I'm sure he had a ton of stuff he'd have liked to explore more.

I agree.

 

It just felt to me a lot of the story was really for the long haul - the Black Tower for instance seemed to need years and years to be functional. The schools Rand was setting up - seem a little pointless if it is only five minutes before the apocalypse. A lot of things just seemed to be panning out over the long term, processes of evolution rather than quick stop gaps (this could be me entirely reading it wrong), and then suddenly someone looks up at the skies and says, "Ooh, look at those clouds, we'll be having a Tarmon Gai'don in about two weeks." Caught me entirely off-guard, though possibly was entirely meant to be the effect, or I was just getting too comfortable in my cosy little soap opera about the EF5 and did not want it to end. Obviously it did have to end eventually, regardless of the author or their health. Just such a shame though that will always be such a "what if"...

[Asthereal]

34 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I agree.

 

It just felt to me a lot of the story was really for the long haul - the Black Tower for instance seemed to need years and years to be functional. The schools Rand was setting up - seem a little pointless if it is only five minutes before the apocalypse. A lot of things just seemed to be panning out over the long term, processes of evolution rather than quick stop gaps (this could be me entirely reading it wrong), and then suddenly someone looks up at the skies and says, "Ooh, look at those clouds, we'll be having a Tarmon Gai'don in about two weeks." Caught me entirely off-guard, though possibly was entirely meant to be the effect, or I was just getting too comfortable in my cosy little soap opera about the EF5 and did not want it to end. Obviously it did have to end eventually, regardless of the author or their health. Just such a shame though that will always be such a "what if"...

 

True, but to be fair, I absolutely prefer this to what's happening with ASoIaF and Kingkiller. Jordan did produce a book per two years (or faster) until he was gone, and we all know how fast Sanderson writes. We got an ending, and a good one at that. I can't really recommend Martin now, as he'll never finish. Rothfuss maybe, but it's not looking rosy for him either.

 

Anyway, back on topic: I had completely forgotten about the foreshadowing for Moiraine's return while I was reading, but I got it spoiled before I got to Towers, so I knew it was coming. I do think it could have used more buildup though - it did feel rushed, and the romance came out of nowhere again, though to be fair that was how Jordan usually wrote them, so perhaps that was just Jordan anyway. The Androl + Pevara relationship felt a lot more natural, and if I had to guess, I'd say that one was 100% Sanderson.

[chiamac]

8 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I agree.

 

It just felt to me a lot of the story was really for the long haul - the Black Tower for instance seemed to need years and years to be functional. The schools Rand was setting up - seem a little pointless if it is only five minutes before the apocalypse. A lot of things just seemed to be panning out over the long term, processes of evolution rather than quick stop gaps (this could be me entirely reading it wrong), and then suddenly someone looks up at the skies and says, "Ooh, look at those clouds, we'll be having a Tarmon Gai'don in about two weeks." Caught me entirely off-guard, though possibly was entirely meant to be the effect, or I was just getting too comfortable in my cosy little soap opera about the EF5 and did not want it to end. Obviously it did have to end eventually, regardless of the author or their health. Just such a shame though that will always be such a "what if"...

 

 

My only comment about the Black Tower and those schools. There wasn't much of a sense of time, or didn't seem to be much of a sense of time. He setup the Black Tower, with a comment in there of "teach them quickly we don't have time" and then we got at least another few helpings of circus chapters later or the bowl of winds... In the last few books there is a 30 day until the last battle time limit, which now seems rushed, and we hear a lot about "2 years" (I bet this drove Sanderson crazy too, to be honest), so everything starts to fit in. 
 

[Asthereal]

On 10/14/2025 at 10:02 PM, chiamac said:

My only comment about the Black Tower and those schools. There wasn't much of a sense of time, or didn't seem to be much of a sense of time. He setup the Black Tower, with a comment in there of "teach them quickly we don't have time" and then we got at least another few helpings of circus chapters later or the bowl of winds... In the last few books there is a 30 day until the last battle time limit, which now seems rushed, and we hear a lot about "2 years" (I bet this drove Sanderson crazy too, to be honest), so everything starts to fit in. 

 

I think part of why we lose the sense of time in the final books is also because Sanderson had originally planned the ending out as one big book, but then was forced to split it up into three volumes. This caused him to have to move stuff around. Large parts of books 12 and 13 happen simultaneously, but it's not perfect. Sanderson admitted as much. So there's no natural flow the way you'd expect.

 

Jordan did the same, sort of, with books 9 and 10, there the first half of book 10 happens during the ending of book 9, but that one feels more deliberate. I still don't love that though. It very much feels like you're reading buildup for stuff while the cool things are happening elsewhere, and you really just want to go there and read about that.

 

I think typically, if you're writing your story mostly chronological, it auses all sorts of problems if you later diverge away from chronological stoytelling. It can be done - anything can be done if done well - but I wouldn't recommend it.

Edited October 16 by Asthereal

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

The bit that bugged me was Tam and Perrin being taken out of sync. Especially as it would be so easy to fix - where Tam is taken away by Nyn to have some quality time with Rand and stays with him, but then when we go back to Perrin for nearly the whole of the next book, Tam is still there while Perrin does his training montage in TAR for the showdown 2.0 with Slayer.

 

It seems like it would have been trivially easy to have Tam come back to finish some stuff off, or just remove him from the Perrin arc and have Abel or someone in that role. But it was hardly that big a deal, it just caught my attention and then irritated. 

[chiamac]

8 hours ago, Asthereal said:

 

I think part of why we lose the sense of time in the final books is also because Sanderson had originally planned the ending out as one big book, but then was forced to split it up into three volumes. This caused him to have to move stuff around. Large parts of books 12 and 13 happen simultaneously, but it's not perfect. Sanderson admitted as much. So there's no natural flow the way you'd expect.

 

Jordan did the same, sort of, with books 9 and 10, there the first half of book 10 happens during the ending of book 9, but that one feels more deliberate. I still don't love that though. It very much feels like you're reading buildup for stuff while the cool things are happening elsewhere, and you really just want to go there and read about that.

 

I think typically, if you're writing your story mostly chronological, it auses all sorts of problems if you later diverge away from chronological stoytelling. It can be done - anything can be done if done well - but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

I think I'm in book 10 or 11, whichever one Towers of Midnight is. 

I was talking more about losing a sense of time before the cleansing, or in the slop. It's been a while now so my memory of books 1-5 and events is a bit hazy, but it seemed that for the most part the story was moving forward. Then we get into the slop, and there weren't really any events to connect anything together. On top of it all, like I could have mentioned, we have this "last battle" hanging over, which at that point is less than a year away, but we would never tell by how the characters are acting. 

Once we get the cleansing, that is used as an event to at least tie that next book together timeline wise. So, and to me and I could be wrong, it covers mostly a month or so and each separate story in that book ends with someone noticing that event. I thought that was a neat way to tie everything together and that it worked well. 

My main critique with the ending books now is that we went from "the slop" through the cleansing, and now we have this "30 days" come up. So to me as a reader, we went from exploring this world with the "last battle" more or less serving as a bookstop end point when we get there, to "OMG it's here". Which was pretty jarring. 

I do get that Sanderson wanted to put an end point to this, and not just write books, and maybe the 30 days was the plan all along. But, I personally would have liked to have come into the ending with a little more of a ramp up. 

Finally too, although I can't grasp it completely, I can start to get a sense of where RJ was going before he detoured off. For instance, starting the ending books or even the cleansing right after Moiraine went through the portal would really make sense with the condensed timeline. Then too, why would the Whitecloaks care 2 years after something happened, I get it, but still that makes sense if we don't have all "the slop" in the middle and let it be less than a year. Even Mat and Perrin not meeting up, makes sense if they never had time to. I do appreciate all the books, and the time RJ took, don't get me wrong, but it just doesn't come together as a really tight story that's all. 

[urrutiap]

9 hours ago, chiamac said:

 

I think I'm in book 10 or 11, whichever one Towers of Midnight is. 

I was talking more about losing a sense of time before the cleansing, or in the slop. It's been a while now so my memory of books 1-5 and events is a bit hazy, but it seemed that for the most part the story was moving forward. Then we get into the slop, and there weren't really any events to connect anything together. On top of it all, like I could have mentioned, we have this "last battle" hanging over, which at that point is less than a year away, but we would never tell by how the characters are acting. 

Once we get the cleansing, that is used as an event to at least tie that next book together timeline wise. So, and to me and I could be wrong, it covers mostly a month or so and each separate story in that book ends with someone noticing that event. I thought that was a neat way to tie everything together and that it worked well. 

My main critique with the ending books now is that we went from "the slop" through the cleansing, and now we have this "30 days" come up. So to me as a reader, we went from exploring this world with the "last battle" more or less serving as a bookstop end point when we get there, to "OMG it's here". Which was pretty jarring. 

I do get that Sanderson wanted to put an end point to this, and not just write books, and maybe the 30 days was the plan all along. But, I personally would have liked to have come into the ending with a little more of a ramp up. 

Finally too, although I can't grasp it completely, I can start to get a sense of where RJ was going before he detoured off. For instance, starting the ending books or even the cleansing right after Moiraine went through the portal would really make sense with the condensed timeline. Then too, why would the Whitecloaks care 2 years after something happened, I get it, but still that makes sense if we don't have all "the slop" in the middle and let it be less than a year. Even Mat and Perrin not meeting up, makes sense if they never had time to. I do appreciate all the books, and the time RJ took, don't get me wrong, but it just doesn't come together as a really tight story that's all. 

 

and what the heck does that have to do with what my topic is about?    all i said was that Moiraine came back at the very last minute in the previous book right before Memory of Light.  She came back a bit too late where Rand is just about to screw around with the last seal. 

[chiamac]

9 hours ago, urrutiap said:

 

and what the heck does that have to do with what my topic is about?    all i said was that Moiraine came back at the very last minute in the previous book right before Memory of Light.  She came back a bit too late where Rand is just about to screw around with the last seal. 

 

It has everything to do with my last point. Her coming back "last minute" makes more sense if the middle "the slop" books only covered a few months and if the story took place in half the time it ends up taking. Then her going through the portal, to coming back would only be months rather than whatever it is, and that timing would then make more sense that she is last minute to the last battle after a year or so or whatever it really is. 

That's why I'm critical of the sense of time and urgency in these books. Not to the point where I don't enjoy them, or wouldn't re-read them, but it turns into more a serial or soap opera than a story that builds up with some level of purpose or urgency to this last battle. 

As far as your point about bringing her back, and I could have said this before, but I understand why Gandalf came back and I don't mind her coming back. In a way it makes sense she would still be alive, since that portal went to a place and not to the void or whatever. 

Edited October 17 by chiamac

[Asthereal]

On 10/16/2025 at 9:24 PM, chiamac said:

I think I'm in book 10 or 11, whichever one Towers of Midnight is. 

 

I kind of assumed you'd be in book 13, which is Towers of Midnight, and the book where Moiraine comes back - the thing OP was talking about. But books 9 and 10 happen simultaneously as well, in part, so I guess you could lose sense of time there as well. Though I feel like that part of the series was quite clear.