Over how many cycles has the battle/last battle been taking place, really?

[randduran]

Hi all! First time poster so please forgive the inevitable repeat/regurgitation of questions already dealt with on the forum...

 

My question is pretty basic: for how many cycles has the last battle (i.e., specifically a battle involving the wheel's champion) taken place? 

 

It's been a major point of confusion for me and a big part of that confusion is sewn by what Ishamael says (and whether we can believe him at all or even partially) to Lews and later Rand. 

 

(And for reference yes I have read the full series though only once and didn't exactly take notes...:)

 

On one hand, the only things as book readers that we actually observe is that (1) after the DO is given access to the pattern via the bore, Ishamael and Lews battle. And (2) then...3000 years later the soul of Lews (named Dragon in the Age of Legends) is reborn and fights Ishy a second time. 

 

It's heavily implied through the books and mostly by Ishy that the battle takes place again and again but...does it? And when? Before the Bore? How did it transpire in that case...could the DO have an actual champion before the Bore? It just doesn't make sense.

 

The only other thing I can see is that the "battle" might be broadened to include other kinds of skirmishes that happen over and over again but those don't involve the "dragon" or do they? 

 

My best guess is that this was the idea RJ was wanting to convey but never fully fleshed out anything concrete beyond what occurs in the Age and Legends and in the current day. I look forward to be enlightened and thank you for reading!

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Hi! Welcome to Dragonmount 🙂

 

You have struck upon a discordant note in the books' narrative, IMHO. 

 

Canon: there are no beginnings or endings in the Wheel of Time. The Third Age has played out an infinite amount of times. With what variation? We don't know. 

 

Necessary so that the characters and readers don't think everything must follow a set path: this Age is super-duper special and everything really is on the line in terms of victory for the Light or Shadow. (but isn't the Pattern all about balance?) 

 

The narrative doesn't work unless it is linear. If the story must come back to the beginning again, a lot of the tension and suspension is gone. 

 

But is it an unreliable narrator that really the fate of the world is at stake, or is it genuinely so, such as some sort of quantum paradox that the Dark One is imprisoned in all worlds for all time until he isn't?

 

I don't think it is possible to deduce this, I think we need to reconcile it in our own headcanons in a way that we are comfortable with. 

 

That is my humble opinion anyway. 

[randduran]

20 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Canon: there are no beginnings or endings in the Wheel of Time. The Third Age has played out an infinite amount of times. With what variation? We don't know. 

Hmm, okay...maybe I am confused about this... I don't remember it stated quite like this before. I know this is maybe one of those things that just can't be overly questioned, but do we understand this to mean that time is literally repeating? I always thought it was just plain reincarnation and history repeating itself in a eerily similar fashion rather than literally repeating itself. 

 

If so though that would definitely help make some sense of the internal logic. But then I would have to ask...when does the loop start? At the end of the second? And did the 2nd age occur infinitely many times too? Or is just one grand loop of all ages that repeats infinitely?

 

Thank you so much for your reply and thoughts! 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

You are most welcome 🙂 It is always fun to share and exchange ideas with other fans.

 

The lore is based on Eastern ideas of eternal, cyclical time. 

 

So yes - our age is the First Age, which progresses to the Age of Legends where the Bore is made so the Dark One can touch the world and it is repaired in the Third Age. Time goes on until the Seventh Age when something apocalyptic happens sending humanity back to the Stone Age for the First Age to start again. 

 

I'm not sure if it ever says in the books if things happen exactly the same, but I think Jordan clarified that each turning was different, though following the same major themes and history points. 

 

The thing is that in my understanding, classical Eastern concept of cyclical time includes the concept of Nirvana, that all souls are working towards. So for souls, time is linear, starting from the lowest origins going to Nirvana, just in the context of a cyclical universal time. In this sense, the Zen Rand's idea that the point of the Wheel is to try to do better each life makes sense. But in WoT, there is no Nirvana to escape to, so you cannot do better each life. You are trapped in an eternal cycle of balance - the brighter the Light, the darker the Shadow. For example in the Trolloc Wars, both sides knew, no matter how well they did, everything was going to come back eventually to the set of circumstances that started the Wars. However well Lews Therin tackles the Bore, the Pattern will adjust so Rand faces the same issues. Because the Pattern will not allow a victory for the Light any more than a victory for the Shadow. But of course in WoT there is always the question of what is true and what is an unreliable narrator? How do the Aes Sedai know how the fabric of the universe is made?

 

I at least have never seen how Jordan answered these points. 

[chiamac]

Fwiw it's also mentioned, iirc, there are multiple weaves that mirror countless outcomes. I thought that was part of the way stones that were used in the 2nd book. 

 

So the horn, last battle, heros, could have happened in the world we see/read or others. 

 

To confuse things more the head dude in Rands school said something about the prison must be closed when the weave returns over that previous spot. Then it doesn't help that the horn is said to have been hidden extremely well (or something I'm not there yet) after this last battle and the prison closed. 

 

So I guess there are multiple ways to read into that. At least imo and where I'm at. I'm also guessing it's something the author may have wanted to clean up once it started to grow beyond the first few books.

 

Edit - since I'll reply with this anyway, I really don't take any specific thing seriously or read into anything too deeply. It changes so much and contradicts itself at times. I think of it more as an essay or exploration and a soap opera, and where ideas, magic systems, and this regression from what seems to have been a "modern" medieval-punk world into more of a pre-industrial medieval time. The "loose" story is more a means to expand on those ideas and the world that world than anything. Imo

Edited May 23 by chiamac

[chiamac]

On a different note, since spirituality was brought up... it seems there isn't really a heaven, more the world of the dead that the dark one rules, as per "his" dream talks in the first few books and especially when he shows rand his mother and or when "he" talks about having rand either living or dead. 

 

That's depressing, and was quickly moved away from. So yeah, I just don't take it that deep or that any spiritual meaning is behind a lot of things. It's just a long soap opera that explores that world. Imo

[Sabio]

Certain events will happen while what happens between will vary some, since the big push is free will there is going to be some differences.  Things such as the amount of years between ages will vary.  Certain events will always happen, the DO gets sealed and enough time must pass so the world forgets the DO exists.  That will lead to the DO prison will be bored into.  A temp patch happens then the final battle. Most of the heroes and forsaken will be different etc.  Only a few souls like LTT and Ishy are destined to play a part each time.

[randduran]

On 5/23/2025 at 1:44 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

So yes - our age is the First Age, which progresses to the Age of Legends where the Bore is made so the Dark One can touch the world and it is repaired in the Third Age. Time goes on until the Seventh Age when something apocalyptic happens sending humanity back to the Stone Age for the First Age to start again. 

Okay, so one big loop, got it. If you happen to remember when/where this is established I would love the reference. (Again I wonder how much of what is said can be believed.)

 

And thanks again for your reply, HeavyHalfMoonBlade! And I love the discussion about eastern philosophy and glad others have joined in on this discussion! I like how you explained the concept of Nirvana and how it may or may not feature in the WoT. 

 

Sabio's comments bring me back to my original question and confusion...

 

So if it's one grand loop, then souls are spun back out each cycle...except LTT, who is reborn within the cycle. Is he the only one to get multiple iterations within the same cycle? If so, okay. The wheel/light is kind of cheating there, but sure. If not, then I'm back to some of my original confusion. 

 

The thing that keeps sticking with me is Birgitte talking about how she gets spun back in with Gaidal each time. And then Birgitte says she hasn't seen Gaidal and thinks he was spun out as a baby but she herself gets ripped out into the flesh and worries she won't be able to find Gaidal, etc. But this doesn't make sense to me unless she's used to multiple reincarnations within the same cycle. Because how would there be legends of Birgitte Silverbow if she hadn't yet been spun out this cycle already. So maybe it's just LTT...plus the heroes of the horn get multiple lives within each cycle? We certainly don't know of any "bad guys" that get spun out multiple times (naturally, not due to DO) within the same cycle do we?

 

 

[Sabio]

There are only few souls that get spun out and will perform heroic deeds or are linked LLT/Ishy are connected Brigette/ Giadal, heroes of the horn.  Though they can lead ordinary lives.  Brigette mentions once being a farmer's wife and it being the most boring thing ever. 

 

I'm guessing you can get spun out multiple times a cycle. Since a cycle might be a 1000 years, there is a good chance you might get spun out again and again.  

 

Hero of the Horn doesn't always mean you will be a great person.  Hawkwing mentions fighting LTT numerous times.  They are just usually destined for big things.  RJ said the forsaken are different each time, since it would be against free will if you always were forced to team evil.  But the ordinary person can get spun out over and over and maybe do something big but chances are just lead regular lives.

[SteveCrane75]

On 5/23/2025 at 5:56 PM, randduran said:

Hi all! First time poster so please forgive the inevitable repeat/regurgitation of questions already dealt with on the forum...

 

My question is pretty basic: for how many cycles has the last battle (i.e., specifically a battle involving the wheel's champion) taken place? 

 

It's been a major point of confusion for me and a big part of that confusion is sewn by what Ishamael says (and whether we can believe him at all or even partially) to Lews and later Rand. 

 

(And for reference yes I have read the full series though only once and didn't exactly take notes...:)

 

On one hand, the only things as book readers that we actually observe is that (1) after the DO is given access to the pattern via the bore, Ishamael and Lews battle. And (2) then...3000 years later the soul of Lews (named Dragon in the Age of Legends) is reborn and fights Ishy a second time. 

 

It's heavily implied through the books and mostly by Ishy that the battle takes place again and again but...does it? And when? Before the Bore? How did it transpire in that case...could the DO have an actual champion before the Bore? It just doesn't make sense.

 

The only other thing I can see is that the "battle" might be broadened to include other kinds of skirmishes that happen over and over again but those don't involve the "dragon" or do they? 

 

My best guess is that this was the idea RJ was wanting to convey but never fully fleshed out anything concrete beyond what occurs in the Age and Legends and in the current day. I look forward to be enlightened and thank you for reading!

I’ve always read it as the Last Battle only happening in cycles where the Bore exists. Ishy likes to make it sound like it’s endless, but that’s probably more philosophical than literal. Before the Bore, there wasn’t really a way for the DO to touch the Pattern that deeply, so no real Tarmon Gai’don could happen.

[WoTwasThat]

The “Last” Battle has been fought 42 times. This was explained quite clearly in Crossroads of Twilight. Cannot remember the chapter offhand. Just re-read that book to find it. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

If you want to explore the concepts of cyclical non-identical repetition you could read the Fencer and Scavenger trilogies by K J Parker (although there are some fairly sickening events in each of those).  

[Asthereal]

On 10/17/2025 at 10:29 PM, WoTwasThat said:

The “Last” Battle has been fought 42 times. This was explained quite clearly in Crossroads of Twilight. Cannot remember the chapter offhand. Just re-read that book to find it. 

 

So next turning of the Wheel, the answer to the question of the universe and everything will be 43?