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Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 12:22 AM, Elder_Haman said:

This doesn’t mean he was cheating on Egwene. 

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If you are going to limit cheating to actual physical contact then maybe.

But what he actually did is worse than anything short of actual physical in body cheating. And if you consider the nature of the dream it is so close as to hardly be a difference.

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Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 12:31 AM, Mailman said:

If you are going to limit cheating to actual physical contact then maybe.

But what he actually did is worse than anything short of actual physical in body cheating. And if you consider the nature of the dream it is so close as to hardly be a difference.

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Devils Advocate, why are we hung up on him "cheating" on Egwene? 

 

They broke up in Season 1, right?

In Season 2, he hooked up with Selene.

He broke off that toxic relationship with Selene.

He was then forced to be close to Egwene in the sense that they were traveling together for a few months and during that time they decided that they guess? they were a thing again.. maybe? 

But were they ever actually... Together? The few moments of intimacy we saw Rand tried to have with Egwene, she pulled away. (Because of Lanfears manipulation)  They try to kiss? She turns her head. They try to lay together, she turns over. Rand was being isolated in his interpersonal relationships because of Lanfear.

 

Listen to their conversation in S3E1? There's no communication, there's no intimacy there. Egwene is so wrapped up in her own suffering and trauma, that she has no idea about what Rand is going through at all. Rand is staring 10 miles away, looking madness in the eye as he's constantly combatting the addictive death that is Saidin that is just at the edge of his finger tips, waiting there for him, every waking second of the day.

 

And then there's Lanfear, waiting for him every night. With Kind Words, and a warm touch. To take away his troubles, pain, and isolation.

 

Posted (edited)
  On 4/26/2025 at 12:50 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Devils Advocate, why are we hung up on him "cheating" on Egwene? 

 

They broke up in Season 1, right?

In Season 2, he hooked up with Selene.

He broke off that toxic relationship with Selene.

He was then forced to be close to Egwene in the sense that they were traveling together for a few months and during that time they decided that they guess? they were a thing again.. maybe? 

But were they ever actually... Together? The few moments of intimacy we saw Rand tried to have with Egwene, she pulled away. (Because of Lanfears manipulation)  They try to kiss? She turns her head. They try to lay together, she turns over. Rand was being isolated in his interpersonal relationships because of Lanfear.

 

Listen to their conversation in S3E1? There's no communication, there's no intimacy there. Egwene is so wrapped up in her own suffering and trauma, that she has no idea about what Rand is going through at all. Rand is staring 10 miles away, looking madness in the eye as he's constantly combatting the addictive death that is Saidin that is just at the edge of his finger tips, waiting there for him, every waking second of the day.

 

And then there's Lanfear, waiting for him every night. With Kind Words, and a warm touch. To take away his troubles, pain, and isolation.

 

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I am not overly hung up on it other than the show has apparently in season 3 made them a couple again. I assume it was at least partly a way of showing Egwene's PTSD a bit.

 

I know they had that fight at the end of season 1 but was it just a fight or did they have an official break up? There was that strange scene with Perrin and them.

 

It is the overall issues for Rand as a character of him choosing to sleep with Lanfear knowing full well who she is that bothers me.

Edited by Mailman
Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 12:58 AM, Mailman said:

It is the overall issues for Rand as a character of him choosing to sleep with Lanfear knowing full well who she is that bothers me.

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Does he know who she is?  He knows she is a forsaken, yes but all she has done from his PoV is help him.  This is especially noticeable after he calls her out in episode 5 or 6 in season 2.  In their next visit she comes back to him all demure, apologetic and almost submissive.  After this point whenever Rand asks for help she does.  He often does not always gets to see what she does to help him only the results and god knows if Moiraine actually tells him. 

 

She takes him to see Egwene, she creates the situation to free him in Carhien, she helps take him to Falme and puts in in a position to help Egwene and kill Ishy.  Of course all of these events Lanfear uses to manipulate him for her own desires.

 

Rand logically knows Lanfear is evil but Rand also still sees the Innkeeper and eventually Mierin.  He wants to believe the good person is there and that her Evil is caused be the Dark One.  It is only later he realizes that Mierin was never a good person, possibly from Lews bleeding through.

Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 1:38 AM, Elder_Haman said:

But he doesn’t outside of the dream. 

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Again you are defining it as purely the physical act and, on that definition alone, he has not. We do not have T'A'R I would argue there is no difference in any meaningful way between cheating sexually in T'A'R and cheating physically from the point of view of a monogamous relationship.

Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 1:37 AM, Skipp said:

 

Does he know who she is?  He knows she is a forsaken, yes but all she has done from his PoV is help him.  This is especially noticeable after he calls her out in episode 5 or 6 in season 2.  In their next visit she comes back to him all demure, apologetic and almost submissive.  After this point whenever Rand asks for help she does.  He often does not always gets to see what she does to help him only the results and god knows if Moiraine actually tells him. 

 

She takes him to see Egwene, she creates the situation to free him in Carhien, she helps take him to Falme and puts in in a position to help Egwene and kill Ishy.  Of course all of these events Lanfear uses to manipulate him for her own desires.

 

Rand logically knows Lanfear is evil but Rand also still sees the Innkeeper and eventually Mierin.  He wants to believe the good person is there and that her Evil is caused be the Dark One.  It is only later he realizes that Mierin was never a good person, possibly from Lews bleeding through.

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He knows who she is. If he does not inquire as to her methods or place limitations on how she achieves the aid he is being willfully ignorant.

 

The fact that he enlisted her aid and it almost certainly led to deaths in Carihein is one of the worst moments in the series.

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Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 2:40 AM, Mailman said:

Again you are defining it as purely the physical act and, on that definition alone, he has not. We do not have T'A'R I would argue there is no difference in any meaningful way between cheating sexually in T'A'R and cheating physically from the point of view of a monogamous relationship.

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Your argument doesn’t make sense. Again, just because T’a’R exists doesn’t mean that everyone has full agency in their dreams. 
 

The fact that you remember who and what you dreamed about doesn’t make it less of a dream. It is still an expression of the subconscious. At least until Rand learns the Dream. 
 

Rand is not “cheating” on anyone, in any way, at any point in the series. 

Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 3:00 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Your argument doesn’t make sense. Again, just because T’a’R exists doesn’t mean that everyone has full agency in their dreams. 
 

The fact that you remember who and what you dreamed about doesn’t make it less of a dream. It is still an expression of the subconscious. At least until Rand learns the Dream. 
 

Rand is not “cheating” on anyone, in any way, at any point in the series. 

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Rand is 100% lucid and fully aware that he is interacting with the real Lanfear during the dream.

 

At no point is it even suggested that he is confused about what his dreams with Lanfear are.

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Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 3:04 AM, Mailman said:

Rand is 100% lucid and fully aware that he is interacting with the real Lanfear during the dream.

 

At no point is it even suggested that he is confused about what his dreams with Lanfear are.

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What is your point? No one is arguing that he was confused or not lucid. That doesn’t mean that his dream actions are a product of conscious choice. 
 

He’s dreaming. Lanfear is inserting herself into those dreams and taking advantage of Rand’s subconscious vulnerability. 
 

This is so obvious that I can’t believe it’s even a discussion. 

Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 3:15 AM, Elder_Haman said:

What is your point? No one is arguing that he was confused or not lucid. That doesn’t mean that his dream actions are a product of conscious choice. 
 

He’s dreaming. Lanfear is inserting herself into those dreams and taking advantage of Rand’s subconscious vulnerability. 
 

This is so obvious that I can’t believe it’s even a discussion. 

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You are right I can't believe this is even a discussion.

 

  1. adjective
     capable of thinking and expressing yourself in a clear and consistent manner
    “a lucid thinker”
    synonyms:coherent, logical
    rational
    consistent with or based on or using reason
     
     
    So he is thinking logically rationally and coherently and is fully aware that he is in a dream and talking to the real Lanfear and is not confused and you are arguing he is not capable of conscious choice? What are you talking about? Unless Lanfear is using the power on him there is nothing interfering with him making his own decisions. He is conscious within the dream.
     
     
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Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 3:58 AM, Mailman said:

You are right I can't believe this is even a discussion.

 

  1. adjective
     capable of thinking and expressing yourself in a clear and consistent manner
    “a lucid thinker”
    synonyms:coherent, logical
    rational
    consistent with or based on or using reason
     
     
    So he is thinking logically rationally and coherently and is fully aware that he is in a dream and talking to the real Lanfear and is not confused and you are arguing he is not capable of conscious choice? What are you talking about? Unless Lanfear is using the power on him there is nothing interfering with him making his own decisions. He is conscious within the dream.
     
     
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You’re never able to express yourself clearly in your dreams? Why do you associate the subconscious with a lack of lucidity?

 

Rand’s dreams are still just dreams. They are the product of his subconscious. It couldn’t be more obvious that this is the case. Just look at how the locations of his dreams change based on his circumstances. Did he consciously choose those locations? 

Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 4:05 AM, Elder_Haman said:

You’re never able to express yourself clearly in your dreams? Why do you associate the subconscious with a lack of lucidity?

 

Rand’s dreams are still just dreams. They are the product of his subconscious. It couldn’t be more obvious that this is the case. Just look at how the locations of his dreams change based on his circumstances. Did he consciously choose those locations? 

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They are not just regular dreams.

 

For all intents and purposes every time we have seen him in the dream with Lanfear he might as well have been fully awake because that was the level of interaction between them.

 

He is fully aware.

He knows he is with Lanfear.

He is fully aware it is the actual person Lanfear and not a figment of his dreaming imagination.

Unless you are alleging that she is using the power he is in full control of his faculties within these dreams even if he was brought there against his will.

 

I am assuming that she is entering his dreams although the show has not really made this clear at the moment which is why the starting location is probably to do with Rand. Remember she did transport him to the waste and tied him to a wheel in a dream in season 2 I'm assuming that was not Rands dream choice.

 

He might as well be fully awake and directly talking to Lanfear face to face unimpeded for how the show has set these dream sequences.

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Posted (edited)
  On 4/26/2025 at 6:36 AM, Mailman said:

They are not just regular dreams.

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They absolutely are. This was established by the fact that Egwene walked into it in the same way she walked into Perrin’s and Mat’s and Elayne’s. 
 

And as in the other dreams, Rand doesn’t notice Egwene. Because he’s dreaming. Lanfear does notice Egwene. Because she’s awake in T’a’R. 
 

They are Rand’s dreams. Lanfear is manipulating him within them. You’re entitled to your opinion, but your argument is unconvincing. 

Edited by Elder_Haman
Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 6:40 AM, Elder_Haman said:

They absolutely are. This was established by the fact that Egwene walked into it in the same way she walked into Perrin’s and Mat’s and Elayne’s. 
 

They are Rand’s dreams. Lanfear is manipulating him within them. You’re entitled to your opinion, but your argument is unconvincing. 

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That established nothing of the sort she saw Lanfear because she was in Rands dream at the time. It does not change the fact that Rand was fully aware of everything I have expounded on above. Rand was not going to be in multiple dreams.

 

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Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 6:45 AM, Mailman said:

Rand was not going to be in multiple dreams.

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No. Because he’s in his own dream. You can repeat yourself until you’re blue in the face. You’re not persuasive.
 

A dream is a dream. It is a manifestation of the subconscious. Period. End of story. 

 

 

Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 6:48 AM, Elder_Haman said:

No. Because he’s in his own dream. You can repeat yourself until you’re blue in the face. You’re not persuasive.
 

A dream is a dream. It is a manifestation of the subconscious. Period. End of story. 

 

 

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Well nothing of the context of any of the dream sequences that have occurred in the show between Rand and Lanfear in any way show this. They are all as clear as if the 2 people where carrying on a conversation or interaction in the same room as each other.

 

You can keep pushing this argument till you are blue in the face but no scene in the show supports anything but this.

Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 6:53 AM, Elder_Haman said:

You mean other than the fact that they are dream sequences?

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Dream sequences where they might as well be in the same room as each other are fully aware that they are dreaming and that each of them is actually the actual person they are talking to.

 

You are not going to change your mind no matter what information I provide so I suggest we stop.

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Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 6:57 AM, Mailman said:

Dream sequences where they might as well be in the same room as each other are fully aware that they are dreaming and that each of them is actually the actual person they are talking to.

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What difference does that make? Have you never had a conversation in a dream before? (There is, by the way, no evidence that Rand is ‘fully aware’ that he is dreaming in many of these sequences.)

Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 7:01 AM, Elder_Haman said:

What difference does that make? Have you never had a conversation in a dream before? (There is, by the way, no evidence that Rand is ‘fully aware’ that he is dreaming in many of these sequences.)

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Well the dreams mean absolutely nothing then if Rand is not actually a part of them in anything other than an utter dream state. Might as well have cut them all.

Posted
  On 4/25/2025 at 9:18 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Like at the beginning of tDR?

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Nope. "Tell them I'm dead so that I can live my life apart from them and they from me" vs "I scoot off where the freaking prophecy needs me freaking be so that you all don't need to die in the process". That's very much not like. Quoting none other than Tam al'Thor, "Even if you don't choose what to do, you always get to choose why you do it".

  On 4/25/2025 at 9:18 PM, Elder_Haman said:

In what way? Sure she's helping him. But only so he will turn to the dark. Does that make her an ally? Or a viper? Isn't that an interesting question? 

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It makes her a potentially dangerous yet situationally useful ally. And the "so he will only turn to the dark" is well-concealed. But she has at least the common courtesy of taking good care of the object of her manipulations.

  On 4/25/2025 at 9:18 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I'm sorry, but who else has an interest in Rand turning to the Dark? Ishamael? The Forsaken? 

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You're asking the wrong question. It's about the interest of making Rand do what they think Rand must do. Manipulating him. Making him another False Dragon on an Aes Sedai leash. Turning to the Dark does not figure in this equation. That's what's way different in the show as compared to the books, and if you disagree, go rewatch S2 finale.

  On 4/25/2025 at 9:18 PM, Elder_Haman said:

No. No. No. No. Lanfear cares only for herself. Rand/LTT is secondary to her desire for power.

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You contradict yourself in the very same line. Lanfear cares first and foremost for herself. But she is not a flat character (y'know, the hills of Tanchico) with only one thought or emotion. She has big plans and big ambitions, many of which require LTT by her side. And she has the common sense and the common courtesy of letting and helping Rand grow into LTT - sure, the version of LTT that is "her fervent lover", but that's Lanfear after all. And she wants to groom Rand to be become her fervent lover rather than compulse him - she's no Graendal. So, yes, her sympathy and care for Rand/LTT is secondary, but in the show only, and in absolute figures, that's still more than Rand gets from anyone else! Largely because it's secondary for them as well, and of the poor execution/writing.

  On 4/25/2025 at 9:18 PM, Elder_Haman said:

You're certainly right that some of Rand's arc has changed. But you're all twisted up about Lanfear in the show. It's been done perfectly because - as I have said many, many, many times on these forums - during the Last Battle, you want the audience not knowing whether Rand will choose her (or whether she will choose Rand). That's where the dramatic tension lies.

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I'm not twisted up. In fact, all that I say here applies well to the Book!Lanfear. In the books, she's a touch less subtle, a touch more impatient, a touch less level-headed. This does not make a qualitative difference. What makes one is that Rand is deprived of most of character-forming events and of most of the moral support he had in the books - and this makes him a much more vulnerable and receptive target for Show!Lanfear's advances.

But it does not matter much - as I've already written on these boards, Rand is at the moment reduced to being a supporting character in his own show and it's pretty likely he won't be needed at Shayol Ghul at all - aside from a token presence to appease the fans.

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Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 7:21 AM, Mailman said:

Well the dreams mean absolutely nothing then if Rand is not actually a part of them in anything other than an utter dream state.

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Dreams are hugely meaningful precisely because they are a window to the subconscious. 

Posted
  On 4/26/2025 at 10:46 AM, Elglin said:

Rand is at the moment reduced to being a supporting character in his own show

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It isn't 'his' show.

 

For better or worse, Rand is the Deuteragonist of this show, but is still no less important than he is in the books because the story is ultimately about him.

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