Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Recommended Posts

Posted

RJ needed to stick to his guns. If you set up Taim as Demandred, you need to follow through, not back down cuz it was obvious.

 

Even outside of Taimandred and all that unfortunate nonsense, Demandred has huge problems. His intro in LoC was okay, but at Shadar Logoth . . . yes, he was facing a circle of three, but thats a terrible narrative aspect, you can't just have a Forsaken, one of the greatest men of the Age of Legends, beaten in his intro. Give him something threatening to do, like killing an Asha'man or two before being scared away. Just running away was poorly done.

 

I wish parallels between Lan and Demandred had been set up, even if it had something to do with their backstories. Have them meet at some point, or have Demandred be the heir to a destroyed kingdom, or have Lan be second to some sort of Tower Warder. Those two don't work well together with no connections. Establish SOMETHING, even if it's minor. Maybe even have Rand draw a parallel between the two at some point.

  • RP - PLAYER
Posted

I don't quite see why Demandred as swordsman became such a theme at the end. Demandred was already set up as the tactical genius that it needed Mat's unparalleled ability to defeat. But Mat didn't, Demandred was dead before Mat started any of his questionable maneuvers and three duels in the middle of the battle makes no sense to me. 

 

He was also set up as a parallel to Rand in Shara, something that was interesting but hardly explored as it was a bit late by the time it was introduced. I think this is something that was missed. If we knew more about Dark Prophecy, it could have made a lot more sense in the story as the you could see that both sets of Prophecy were pushing everyone to the same conclusion - it doesn't make sense in world that Shadow aligned foretelling, etc., would be wrong and Light aligned right. 

 

It would explain some of the more difficult to understand parts where the Shadow did not seem to go for an easy early victory, but were actually trying to set up the same victory conditions that Rand and Co. were. 

 

But certainly I was not a big fan of Demandred and his Sharans being both a major game changing plot twist, and actually having no effect on the story. 

Posted

There is nothing saying why RJ changed his mind, it might've been because so many guessed it but it could also be RJ saw this would cause issues later.  If Demandred is Taim who is going to be in Shara?

 

Posted

I have nothing useful or constructive to add to this discussion. I just want to say I am thankful for my ignorance because I largely enjoyed Demandred. I'm not following the arguments because my memory of the course of events sucks. Will be keeping an eye out for these points as I make my way through on my second read. 

Posted (edited)
  On 3/31/2025 at 10:32 AM, Sabio said:

There is nothing saying why RJ changed his mind, it might've been because so many guessed it but it could also be RJ saw this would cause issues later.  If Demandred is Taim who is going to be in Shara?

 

Expand  

I would have preferred Sammael to make a comeback in Shara, not only as a game-changing plot twist, but also cuz his death was unsatisfactory and it could've given new motivation to his character.

Edited by TwinStorm
Posted
  On 4/1/2025 at 10:21 AM, Sabio said:

The funny thing is so many people hate how Samm died, and RJ responded with Samm was horrible person and didn't deserve a better death, which I find rather interesting,

Expand  

 

That is really interesting. I wonder if it had anything to do with Zara boards or whatever they're called. Any other ideas on why RJ would have said this about Sammuel?-

Posted (edited)

I'm trying to find an exact quote but it basically I think it came down to Samm was responsible of the deaths of tens of thousands of people, countless atrocities, and such so it's fitting that such a vile person who sought greatness dies in such a blahh un not very heroic death. 

 

From what I could find the quote was something along the lines of:

Yes, I know it wasn't with trumpets and fanfare [referring to Sammael's death]; but he deserved it. He was a louse, and he got a louse's death. He was killed by an enemy he wasn't paying attention to. He lived like a louse, and he died like a louse."

Edited by Sabio
  • 2 months later...
Posted (edited)

Reading the books, I definitely thought Taim would be revealed as Demandred. I wasn't shocked to learn that RJ originally planned on this, but changed his mind, because it seemed to be headed that way - I had the same intuition when it came to Gaidal Cain and Olver (from what I gather that was something RJ changed too?)

 

I think Taim being Demandred makes sense in theory - adds some interesting layers to his motivations and interactions with Rand - but obviously RJ changed his mind about that. 

 

I really loved the Demandred and Lan face-off in the last book so I'm not going to complain. I actually thought that played out well - I didn't feel there was a need for too much lead up to Lan going after Demandred, or a need for parallels between them - because there's a certain intensity in the unexpected nature of Lan taking out Demandred (especially after Galad fails).

 

I also liked how Taim and Logain were pitted against each other along with the fate of the Black Tower as well.

 

So, overall I don't feel it was a bad change, merely different than what I expected - perhaps that was RJ's intention when he changed his mind?

Edited by Bodewhin
Posted
  On 3/31/2025 at 10:32 AM, Sabio said:

There is nothing saying why RJ changed his mind, it might've been because so many guessed it but it could also be RJ saw this would cause issues later.  If Demandred is Taim who is going to be in Shara?

 

Expand  

Shara stuff with Demandred was hinted at early in book 6.

Sammael and Greandel are talking about other forsaken. Sammael is talking nonsense about Demandred. Greandal tries to give hints about what Demandrad is actually doing by showing Sharan rulers she kidnapped. Later we see her POV. She complains about Sammael being an idiot and not getting the hint.

I don't know when RJ decided to separate Taim and Demandred. But this is book 6, and both characters are introduced in this book. So Demandred would be in Shara regardless of readers guessing Taimandred. 

As far as I understand, Taimandred was an idea RJ had, but he never committed fully. He wrote Taim and Demandred separately with a possibility to combine them. Not the other way around.

 

  On 3/30/2025 at 6:16 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I don't quite see why Demandred as swordsman became such a theme at the end.

Expand  

Only reason i have is Lan. He needed a moment. He was one of our original characters leaving Emonds field. It was kind of a fan service. Also Gawyn and Galad needed plotlines. I can see Galad having a moment with whitecloaks. Maybe a redemption plot for whitecloaks. But Gawyn was a mess. Demandred functioned as plotline generator for male swordsmans 😄

 

  On 4/1/2025 at 10:21 AM, Sabio said:

The funny thing is so many people hate how Samm died,

Expand  

 

I don't get this why people hate how Sammael died.

Chronologically. (I think)

Balthameal—killed by an ordinary tool used by Age of Legend farmers
Aginor—Burned with too much power
Be'lal—instant surprise attack
Ishamael— Ok, this was good but confusing.
Lanfear—Tackle
Rahvin—Again, ok in the sense that it was a struggle, but POV changes made it hard to follow.
Asmodean—🙄 No comment.
Arangar—Friendly fire
Osangar—Bound and left to die
Semirage— Surpriseeeee! I have True Power
Messane — Same with Rahvin and Ishamael.
Greandal—Punishment
Cyndane—Snap
Moridin—final battle, no complains.

The rest of them are alive I think, if I didn't miss one. I think out of these, Demandred would be in my top 3. Sammael would be in my top 5.

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted
  On 3/30/2025 at 6:16 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I don't quite see why Demandred as swordsman became such a theme at the end. Demandred was already set up as the tactical genius that it needed Mat's unparalleled ability to defeat. But Mat didn't, Demandred was dead before Mat started any of his questionable maneuvers and three duels in the middle of the battle makes no sense to me. 

 

He was also set up as a parallel to Rand in Shara, something that was interesting but hardly explored as it was a bit late by the time it was introduced. I think this is something that was missed. If we knew more about Dark Prophecy, it could have made a lot more sense in the story as the you could see that both sets of Prophecy were pushing everyone to the same conclusion - it doesn't make sense in world that Shadow aligned foretelling, etc., would be wrong and Light aligned right. 

 

It would explain some of the more difficult to understand parts where the Shadow did not seem to go for an easy early victory, but were actually trying to set up the same victory conditions that Rand and Co. were. 

 

But certainly I was not a big fan of Demandred and his Sharans being both a major game changing plot twist, and actually having no effect on the story. 

Expand  

The three duels occured, because Demandred was as powerful as Rand at Merrilor, except he needed a circle of 72 to get to that power level.

 

Which made him an army unto himself. The duels happened, because each time Demandred came close to shattering one of Mat's battle fronts, and a sign of Mat's Ta'veren nature throwing random things to change the outcome, and it did it by throwing three men that made Demandred drop his focus on the greater battle.

 

The main thing, is that the third duel finally worked. The main issue, is that the battle with Demandred was not the prophesied Tarmon Gai'don. That was about to be fought at Shayol Ghul, AFTER Demandred had fallen, and needed Perrin and Mat to fight the two threats coming to battle.

  • RP - PLAYER
Posted
  On 6/21/2025 at 11:22 AM, wotfan4472 said:

The three duels occured, because Demandred was as powerful as Rand at Merrilor, except he needed a circle of 72 to get to that power level.

 

Which made him an army unto himself. The duels happened, because each time Demandred came close to shattering one of Mat's battle fronts, and a sign of Mat's Ta'veren nature throwing random things to change the outcome, and it did it by throwing three men that made Demandred drop his focus on the greater battle.

 

The main thing, is that the third duel finally worked. The main issue, is that the battle with Demandred was not the prophesied Tarmon Gai'don. That was about to be fought at Shayol Ghul, AFTER Demandred had fallen, and needed Perrin and Mat to fight the two threats coming to battle.

Expand  

I don't see that for me this really clarifies anything. Demandred had Mat beaten, all of Mat's battle skills were useless, why have them if he was just going to dumb luck his way through it all? His stratagems seemed completely ineffective and the whole set-up of making Demandred bet heavily on a losing hand never seemed to actually come to fruition. Three duels just seemed to be pointless as well, putting them down to ta'veren seems rather unsatisfactory. Why not just have Demandred fall from his horse? What was the actual point of making the duels such a central point of the battle?

 

Though maybe you should not listen to me, there is very little I liked about the ending to the series. The battle with the Demandred and the Sharans high on the list of those things that I did not like. I don't think any of it made any sense to me at all.

Posted
  On 6/21/2025 at 1:42 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I don't see that for me this really clarifies anything. Demandred had Mat beaten, all of Mat's battle skills were useless, why have them if he was just going to dumb luck his way through it all? His stratagems seemed completely ineffective and the whole set-up of making Demandred bet heavily on a losing hand never seemed to actually come to fruition. Three duels just seemed to be pointless as well, putting them down to ta'veren seems rather unsatisfactory. Why not just have Demandred fall from his horse? What was the actual point of making the duels such a central point of the battle?

 

Though maybe you should not listen to me, there is very little I liked about the ending to the series. The battle with the Demandred and the Sharans high on the list of those things that I did not like. I don't think any of it made any sense to me at all.

Expand  

I don't think Mats skills were useless, the battle was a close run thing and could have fallen either way no matter Demandreds eventual fate excluding his channeling but that was negated as he did not want to tire himself and expose himself to a counterattack from Rand who he believed was present.

 

The lights forces were the underdog and Mat had to keep the battle going till he hoped he got a chance to tilt it in his favour.

 

The duels while foolish were a symptom of Demandreds arrogance and pathological need to best Rand/LTT to prove he was the better man. Also in his defence he established in each of the duels pretty early that he was the better swordsman. I would have had Lan die from his wound if it was up to me.

Posted

People also forget Dem was partially insane by this point, Moghi mentioned how he had changed since being around the Sharans.  He had been using the True Power a lot and one of the side effects is insanity.    He couldn't use the male half around them, so he had to rely on the True Power. Suffering from partial insanity would explain some of his behavior at the end.

  • RP - PLAYER
Posted

I am not sure that citing insanity for characters acting irrationally is a great plot device. I mean sure, but why not have characters act coherently at this crucial point in the narrative? It seems a strange choice. Having three duels will always seem a weird point - a single duel was a rather arbitrary way to end Demandred given the context - three would seem to need a really important function in the narrative to make sense, and for me, there wasn't.

 

I could be wrong but at least for Lan it clearly said in my memory that Lan was easily the better swordsman, but he was exhausted, so not performing as well.

 

And there was so much wrong with the battle. The Shadow had had great effect dividing their forces and driving deep into friendly territory, yet when on the brink of victory, agreed to meet the forces of the Light in one pitched battle, allowing the Light simultaneously fight at Merrilor and Shayol Ghul without people desrting to protect their own homelands. Pike formations sliced apart with balefire is not some kind of minor inconvenience, Mat's army would have collapsed at that point, not bravely fought on, without a formation pikes are utterly useless. Sending the Seanchan away did nothing. Demandred did not alter his plan and it had no effect on the battle except limiting how Mat could use them as a tactical reserve. The aping of Austerlitz where they lose the heights and then retake them was not explained at all - why was this a good idea? How could they suddenly have the troops to fight on another front? Using the villagers from Hyam(?) to defend the dam was a great little idea, explaining why Mat would not properly reinforce them, but having them retake it was nonsensical. How could they have overpowered Dreadlords? How would the troops defending the dam even have known they were the same people back from dead? Why during the Last Battle would they be so shocked that they would not have fought back but just let themselves be killed without raising a finger? It's like the Ateam where they make a custard gun and all the bad guys stand about saying "oh I'm covered in custard" until they get arrested and completely forget they are still holding M60s and the Ateam have, well, a custard gun. None of the battle made sense to me at all. Not the tactical moves, not how they protected the troops from the One Power, not Mat's great plan... Add in the duels, Bela's death, the disgusting Olver being made a hero, the heroes explaining they might be immortal and all powerful but the bad guys might tie them up and hide them in a cupboard somewhere (thanks Brandon! some magic is better left soft), Egwene's death and creation (and naming! while dying and not telling anyone?) of the Flame of Tar Valon, the weirdness with Logain who rescued refugees rather than confronting Taim... For me it was just a disaster from start to finish. 

 

The only thing I can say in its defense is compared to how bad endings of long series can be, it wasn't that bad, all things considered. Oh and Thom and Moiraine, lol. And Alvara helping Rand live again or whatever Min's viewing said by laying out clean underwear for him. Actually when I think about, let's have Demandred have three duels in the middle of the battle for no reason doesn't seem that bad in comparison.

Posted (edited)
  On 6/22/2025 at 1:43 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I am not sure that citing insanity for characters acting irrationally is a great plot device. I mean sure, but why not have characters act coherently at this crucial point in the narrative? It seems a strange choice. Having three duels will always seem a weird point - a single duel was a rather arbitrary way to end Demandred given the context - three would seem to need a really important function in the narrative to make sense, and for me, there wasn't.

 

I could be wrong but at least for Lan it clearly said in my memory that Lan was easily the better swordsman, but he was exhausted, so not performing as well.

 

And there was so much wrong with the battle. The Shadow had had great effect dividing their forces and driving deep into friendly territory, yet when on the brink of victory, agreed to meet the forces of the Light in one pitched battle, allowing the Light simultaneously fight at Merrilor and Shayol Ghul without people desrting to protect their own homelands. Pike formations sliced apart with balefire is not some kind of minor inconvenience, Mat's army would have collapsed at that point, not bravely fought on, without a formation pikes are utterly useless. Sending the Seanchan away did nothing. Demandred did not alter his plan and it had no effect on the battle except limiting how Mat could use them as a tactical reserve. The aping of Austerlitz where they lose the heights and then retake them was not explained at all - why was this a good idea? How could they suddenly have the troops to fight on another front? Using the villagers from Hyam(?) to defend the dam was a great little idea, explaining why Mat would not properly reinforce them, but having them retake it was nonsensical. How could they have overpowered Dreadlords? How would the troops defending the dam even have known they were the same people back from dead? Why during the Last Battle would they be so shocked that they would not have fought back but just let themselves be killed without raising a finger? It's like the Ateam where they make a custard gun and all the bad guys stand about saying "oh I'm covered in custard" until they get arrested and completely forget they are still holding M60s and the Ateam have, well, a custard gun. None of the battle made sense to me at all. Not the tactical moves, not how they protected the troops from the One Power, not Mat's great plan... Add in the duels, Bela's death, the disgusting Olver being made a hero, the heroes explaining they might be immortal and all powerful but the bad guys might tie them up and hide them in a cupboard somewhere (thanks Brandon! some magic is better left soft), Egwene's death and creation (and naming! while dying and not telling anyone?) of the Flame of Tar Valon, the weirdness with Logain who rescued refugees rather than confronting Taim... For me it was just a disaster from start to finish. 

 

The only thing I can say in its defense is compared to how bad endings of long series can be, it wasn't that bad, all things considered. Oh and Thom and Moiraine, lol. And Alvara helping Rand live again or whatever Min's viewing said by laying out clean underwear for him. Actually when I think about, let's have Demandred have three duels in the middle of the battle for no reason doesn't seem that bad in comparison.

Expand  

Some parts where not perfect the villagers taking out the Dam defenders never felt right unless they had a massive numerical advantage (fairly sure that they had added some soldiers to just the basic villagers). It is possible that Demandred thought he had sufficient numbers there. No need to keep the channeler Mat left behind in the dark about the plan though.

 

Lan definitely said that Demandred was the better swordsman it was caveated by saying it might have been different if he was not as tired as he was but both fighters definitely stated that Demandred was the superior at that moment.

 

Olver was not made into a hero. I think he might have been a young Gaidal Cain but it is not confirmed to the best of my knowledge. Felt that was a long build up the constant talking about how ugly he was and how Birgette was attracted to ugly men.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mailman
Posted

As a newbie to this community, I'm finding a lot of the bitter ranting, misconceptions and snap judgements on these forums a huge turn-off in general.

 

There seems to be an uncommon amount of complaining and hating on the books which seems very odd for fansite devoted to said books. 

 

I'm fairly new to the WOT in general, since I only started the series in the Covid pandemic era, so perhaps over the years the love for the books among long-standing fans has waned and disappointments in how the series wrapped up have festered like  wounds that never healed. 

 

Either way, this kind of discourse isn't really the sort of thing I was hoping to encounter in a fan community. 

 

I think I'll go back to reading, and leave it to you guys. 

  • RP - PLAYER
Posted
  On 6/24/2025 at 3:11 PM, Bodewhin said:

As a newbie to this community, I'm finding a lot of the bitter ranting, misconceptions and snap judgements on these forums a huge turn-off in general.

 

There seems to be an uncommon amount of complaining and hating on the books which seems very odd for fansite devoted to said books. 

 

I'm fairly new to the WOT in general, since I only started the series in the Covid pandemic era, so perhaps over the years the love for the books among long-standing fans has waned and disappointments in how the series wrapped up have festered like  wounds that never healed. 

 

Either way, this kind of discourse isn't really the sort of thing I was hoping to encounter in a fan community. 

 

I think I'll go back to reading, and leave it to you guys. 

Expand  

I'm guessing this is aimed at me, given the context of the thread, so please allow me to attempt to clarify. I had never hoped to come across as hating on the books.

 

I suppose I kind of assume that to everything I post there is an unspoken postscript explaining that I truly love the books regardless of any criticism I may have. There are even bits I love and hate, such as the arguing about what food they are going to buy and that kind of thing. Parts I loved but thought were a bit dodgy, such as Valan Luca's obsession with Nynaeve's bosom. And indeed some bits I didn't like, perfection is not possible, in my estimation.

 

There is a lot about the ending that I found very disappointing, true, but that is within the context of the greater story. There are a lot of strange things for me towards the end, some of it probably inevitable from bringing such an epic sprawling story line to a close, some from the author change and the at least partíal writing by committee where the editors perhaps had more power over Brandon Sanderson than would be normal in such circumstances. 

 

But my intention is not to hate on the books. Rather it is to discuss them in all their aspects, without the unfortunate habit in the discussions of the show to assign dastardly intentions to those who disagree with us. 

 

For example I really didn't like Egwene's death. I was not a great fan of her character in the book but it seemed to me that to be the greatest Amyrlin of all time you would need to Amyrlin for longer than a year. The whole anti-balefire creation at point of death also seemed very rushed, especially as it isn't made very clear how others learned it and especially what it was called. But other people have said they loved that piece. That is was incredibly moving for them.

 

So I'm happy to discuss it, to see others opinions, and take solace that others do enjoy those aspects and hopefully can temper my opinions by seeing the positivity in others. I hope there is no implication that my opinion is somehow superior or more justified or that I am trying to convince anyone of The One True Opinion. 

 

Throughout the forums you will probably see people that really don't like the Faile/Shaido arc and those that love it. People that really don't like certain books, or the beginning, or the middle or the ending, and those that love exactly those parts. The same with characters etc etc. But to me that is all part of loving and living with the books, and I can only apologise if that comes across as hating, because that isn't the way it is meant, I mean it as discussing the aspects of the books that I love in all their aspects. 

 

For me being critical of the books does not in anyway undermine my love for them, and I really like discussing things with people that have different favourite characters or completely different takes from me as that can deepen my own understandjng of the story or just be interesting. 

 

Tl:dr sorry, my bad. 

Posted
  On 6/24/2025 at 4:22 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I'm guessing this is aimed at me, given the context of the thread, so please allow me to attempt to clarify. I had never hoped to come across as hating on the books.

.... 

 

Tl:dr sorry, my bad. 

Expand  

I appreciate the apology - but it's unfair for you to take the full brunt of responsibility for my post. I didn't quote you, because I didn't intend to single you out as the sole perpetrator.

 

While I found the posts in this thread extremely negative, the same is true for the majority of topics in the book section. Having browsed around, reading through topics, I've come to the conclusion that that's just how most discussions on DM are. 

 

I suppose, it's always easier to devote time to expressing impassioned dislike, rather than focusing on what is liked and why - WOT is old enough for fans to have talked the books a world over, which I totally understand.  

 

As a newbie to the books, I'm still in the honeymoon phase. But there are a host of things that I didn't like or found tedious or whatever - so I'm not pretending I love everything about them from cover to cover (I don't). 

 

I'm aware that different opinions are part of fandoms - we all digest stories in different ways and interpret them individually. Which is why the Amazon series had such a huge gap in reception imo. The relationship between a book and reader is complex and intimate.

 

DM has an established community with an established form of discussion, I accept that - but it's not really the sort of discussions I expected to encounter in the majority.

 

The only reason I wound up putting that post here was after backspacing a lengthy reply on the last battle and how it fits the same objectives, strengths and weaknesses of the Battle of Austerlitz (I'm a big history buff). It suddenly occured to me, that it served no purpose to debate the merits of how things went down, list possible reasoning or offer explanations... In doing so, I'd just be adding to the noise. 

 

It's a bit like someone saying they hate vanilla ice cream in a waffle cone - should I really bother to say it's my favorite flavor and cone type, and why it's such a great combo? It's not going to change opinions nor should it - it's a matter of taste.

 

I do want to thank you for taking the time to clarify and respond  - I appreciate it. I hope my clarification will also make sense. I sincerely wish you the best. 

 

Posted (edited)
  On 6/24/2025 at 3:11 PM, Bodewhin said:

As a newbie to this community, I'm finding a lot of the bitter ranting, misconceptions and snap judgements on these forums a huge turn-off in general.

 

There seems to be an uncommon amount of complaining and hating on the books which seems very odd for fansite devoted to said books. 

 

I'm fairly new to the WOT in general, since I only started the series in the Covid pandemic era, so perhaps over the years the love for the books among long-standing fans has waned and disappointments in how the series wrapped up have festered like  wounds that never healed. 

 

Either way, this kind of discourse isn't really the sort of thing I was hoping to encounter in a fan community. 

 

I think I'll go back to reading, and leave it to you guys. 

Expand  

 

A fellow COVID WoT reader! I too started during the lockdowns. Took me about 15 months to power through the series. It was a great experience, and not just because of the circumstances. The series is mostly great.

 

I think the most contentious parts are from the Sanderson books. There's quite a few Jordan purists here on the forum who criticize the Sanderson books relentlessly. I think it's helpful to keep this in mind and kind of ignore those remarks. Thing is: Sanderson is a completely different kind of writer than Jordan was, with a different voice and style. He's a massive fan of WoT and knew the story very well, and I think he did a good job finishing the series, but of course there's many things he wrote that just have a different feel, and he didn't have notes of everything, so Jordan's vision for the ending of a number of storylines was unclear.

 

As for Demandred: there's an inherent risk in changing your original plan. The Game of Thrones showrunners did it and ended up ruining things, but for WoT it's a bit different. Thing is: Jordan was probably planning to do more foreshadowing for Demandred, but when Sanderson took over, he probably just had very little to go on for Demandred. Perhaps he also just didn't have space to do big foreshadowing for it, and chose to do an "oh crap" moment in the Last Battle instead. For me, Demandred showing up out of nowhere with a Sharan army was something I didn't see coming but feel like I should have, so for me that was okay. The level 1, 2, 3 dueling felt off, though. I think Galad should have stayed away and should have had a moment with the White Cloaks or something like that. But that's just my opinion. I loved the Last Battle. It was a thrill ride, and I refuse to complain too much about a few minor flaws. 🙂 

Edited by Asthereal
Posted (edited)
  On 6/6/2025 at 11:22 PM, Bodewhin said:

 I had the same intuition when it came to Gaidal Cain and Olver (from what I gather that was something RJ changed too?)

 

Expand  

I considered this on my first read through and I have heard others did so as well.  But was there ever a statement that RJ actually had planned this?  The reason I ask is that I eventually ruled it out because the timelines don’t work.  Olver had to have been born before the beginning of the series, but Gaidal Cain is with Birgitte in Tel during the first part of the series.  While time can pass differently in Tel, I think this applies only to the speed at which time passes. Time must still continue forward in all dimensions and someone cannot travel to Tel and see GC there if he is already born as Olver.  
 

In order for Olver to be GC, either Olver has supernatural aging abilities or otherwise doesn’t have a natural human lifecycle, or 
the weirdness of time in Tel is much weirder than we are ever shown. Or maybe child Olver can travel to Tel and be there as GC when asleep or something.  Or maybe children haven’t received their souls yet, but that’s a bit creepy.

Edited by Samt
Posted
  On 6/26/2025 at 1:50 PM, Samt said:

I considered this on my first read through and I have heard others did so as well.  But was there ever a statement that RJ actually had planned this?  The reason I ask is that I eventually ruled it out because the timelines don’t work.  Olver had to have been born before the beginning of the series, but Gaidal Cain is with Birgitte in Tel during the first part of the series.  While time can pass differently in Tel, I think this applies only to the speed at which time passes. Time must still continue forward in all dimensions and someone cannot travel to Tel and see GC there if he is already born as Olver.  
 

In order for Olver to be GC, either Olver has supernatural aging abilities or otherwise doesn’t have a natural human lifecycle, or 
the weirdness of time in Tel is much weirder than we are ever shown. Or maybe child Olver can travel to Tel and be there as GC when asleep or something.  Or maybe children haven’t received their souls yet, but that’s a bit creepy.

Expand  

 

I'd say this is correct. As far as I can tell from the lore, souls are spun out at birth (or perhaps at conception), so Cain's soul shouldn't be in Olver.
I also don't remember Jordan ever mentioning Olver being Cain reborn, but I have to admit I'm not super up to speed with all the interviews he did.

Posted

It would be impossible for Cain to be Olver.  Regardless of time running different in the dream world, Cain's soul can't be in the dream world as his body is walking about in the real world for years.  Just like Elayne's kids will be born too late to be Cain.  Even in the Companion there is no mention of Olver/Cain being the same.  

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...