What would you change to improve the series?

[chiamac]

I made a similar comment on this on X, and signed up to share some thoughts, although maybe not as specific or in depth as others here. 

 

I'm also "reading" the series on audio book, and using it as a replacement for other media. So I welcome the long drawn-out soap opera nature of the books.

 

I'm also only in the middle, so my opinion may change as I get farther or finish.

 

What I would do differently or suggest to the author if I was a friend reading this - before publication...

 

He should go back and rewrite the first 2 to 3 books to fit into where the story went after book 4 or so. The story seems to meander around, and he tries too hard to keep up story lines that maybe shouldn't have been opened in the ways they were. 

 

I think I get what he is trying to do, at least with my limited knowledge on ligature (not an English major here), in that he doesn't want the story or world to need all kinds of study guides to help someone through. So I get the details, I get going in depth on things... 

 

But, for instance, just my opinion... I don't think we needed P. Fain running around with the dagger. I don't think we needed 5 of them, plus others, leaving in the first book. I think Perrin could have been left out. All of this was fine in a limited series of 3 books, but it's just way too much to juggle once the main story gets going. 

 

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 3/30/2025 at 3:30 PM, chiamac said:

 I don't think we needed 5 of them, plus others, leaving in the first book. I think Perrin could have been left out. All of this was fine in a limited series of 3 books, but it's just way too much to juggle once the main story gets going

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Apparently in the first drafts there were two other ta'veren from Emond's Field, Dannil and Llewin, iirc, but Jordan was persuaded by the editing team to remove them.

[Asthereal]

  On 3/30/2025 at 12:00 AM, KakitaOCU said:

4: I like Tylin in the book to be honest.  Jordan was very much writing a gender reversal in terms of prominence and power and authority.  Tylin is a female version of the male college kid or rich kid who does what they want and does criminally evil things and get's ignored because "Oh, you know how they are.  Queen's will be Queens..."   It's part of the gender inequality build the same way having a female pope or predominantly queens.

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Same here. It's not fun reading about sexual assault, but it's an interesting dynamic and I do think it adds to the story as a whole, with the gender reversal you mentioned. Besides, it's a story. In storytelling, more conflict is more better. Also, I think Mat grows as a character because of this. In the first half of the series he's a bit of a womanizer, and he doesn't take relationships all that seriously, but his conflict with Tylin changes that quite a bit.

[Finnssss22]

  On 3/30/2025 at 3:30 PM, chiamac said:

I made a similar comment on this on X, and signed up to share some thoughts, although maybe not as specific or in depth as others here. 

 

I'm also "reading" the series on audio book, and using it as a replacement for other media. So I welcome the long drawn-out soap opera nature of the books.

 

I'm also only in the middle, so my opinion may change as I get farther or finish.

 

What I would do differently or suggest to the author if I was a friend reading this - before publication...

 

He should go back and rewrite the first 2 to 3 books to fit into where the story went after book 4 or so. The story seems to meander around, and he tries too hard to keep up story lines that maybe shouldn't have been opened in the ways they were. 

 

I think I get what he is trying to do, at least with my limited knowledge on ligature (not an English major here), in that he doesn't want the story or world to need all kinds of study guides to help someone through. So I get the details, I get going in depth on things... 

 

But, for instance, just my opinion... I don't think we needed P. Fain running around with the dagger. I don't think we needed 5 of them, plus others, leaving in the first book. I think Perrin could have been left out. All of this was fine in a limited series of 3 books, but it's just way too much to juggle once the main story gets going. 

 

 

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Books 1-3 were originally 1 book and was an homage to Tolkien and LOTR.

So far as I understood, as 1 book is was far too large for publication and it was broken up into 2 and then finally 3 books.

Book 4 is when RJ really starts getting away from the LOTR chasing/being chased meta and begins really building on his cultures, world and begins to tighten/tidy up his magic system.

There's a lot of things in books 1-3 that we later began calling early bookisms due to them not really following the rules established further into the series.

[Mailman]

The early books always felt to me like he was not 100% sure he was getting to continue on. After book 3 everything really smoothed out.

 

Things I would change I would reduce the time spent on the start of Failes capture.

I would have liked some more AOL flashbacks for the forsaken and just generally more forsaken build ups.

[Tenobia si bashere kazadi]

I think I would just reduce the size of some of the worse plots,  have less forsaken coming back after death  and either have more  Fain or just kill him off after book 4.

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/30/2025 at 3:30 PM, chiamac said:

I made a similar comment on this on X, and signed up to share some thoughts, although maybe not as specific or in depth as others here. 

 

I'm also "reading" the series on audio book, and using it as a replacement for other media. So I welcome the long drawn-out soap opera nature of the books.

 

I'm also only in the middle, so my opinion may change as I get farther or finish.

 

What I would do differently or suggest to the author if I was a friend reading this - before publication...

 

He should go back and rewrite the first 2 to 3 books to fit into where the story went after book 4 or so. The story seems to meander around, and he tries too hard to keep up story lines that maybe shouldn't have been opened in the ways they were. 

 

I think I get what he is trying to do, at least with my limited knowledge on ligature (not an English major here), in that he doesn't want the story or world to need all kinds of study guides to help someone through. So I get the details, I get going in depth on things... 

 

But, for instance, just my opinion... I don't think we needed P. Fain running around with the dagger. I don't think we needed 5 of them, plus others, leaving in the first book. I think Perrin could have been left out. All of this was fine in a limited series of 3 books, but it's just way too much to juggle once the main story gets going. 

 

 

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Books 1-3 Robert Jordan had no idea how long he had to tell his story. 
 

 Book 1 he wrote as a one off standalone novel with the potential to turn it into a trilogy if he was given the contract by the publishers. He was also told to write a story more identical to fellowship of the ring by his publisher. 
 

He was then given a contract to write book 2 and while writing book 2 was then given a trilogy. 
 

while writing book 3 he was told he had a forth book, with the potential I believe for a 5th. It wasn’t until he was writing book 4 he was told he had as many books as he needed to tell the story. 
 

If you understand this then you understand why the story doesn’t really find its voice until book 4, and why books 1-3 seem a bit repetitive. He had to try and finish each one off as a contained story. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 4/26/2025 at 7:48 PM, Scarloc99 said:

Books 1-3 Robert Jordan had no idea how long he had to tell his story. 
 

 Book 1 he wrote as a one off standalone novel with the potential to turn it into a trilogy if he was given the contract by the publishers. He was also told to write a story more identical to fellowship of the ring by his publisher. 
 

He was then given a contract to write book 2 and while writing book 2 was then given a trilogy. 
 

while writing book 3 he was told he had a forth book, with the potential I believe for a 5th. It wasn’t until he was writing book 4 he was told he had as many books as he needed to tell the story. 
 

If you understand this then you understand why the story doesn’t really find its voice until book 4, and why books 1-3 seem a bit repetitive. He had to try and finish each one off as a contained story. 

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This is the narrative I've always heard. But I was just reading the letter on the frontpage of the site released for Tom, from TOR's birthday and this is Jordan's own words about pitching the Wheel of Time. 

  Quote

Any other publisher hearing me pitch, not a trilogy, but something that would run to five or maybe six volumes – that’s how long I thought it would be back then – would have tossed me out on my ear, or maybe said, “I’ll take the first book, and we’ll see what comes of it.” Tom said, “I’ll make it a contract for six books. If it comes in at five, you can do something else for the sixth book. I like the way you write.”

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I've heard a lot of contradictory stories, such as tEotW originally being almost a LOTR fanfic trying to get permission to write in the universe. Does anyone know why there are so many different stories going about? 

[chiamac]

  On 4/11/2025 at 7:07 PM, Finnssss22 said:

 

 

Books 1-3 were originally 1 book and was an homage to Tolkien and LOTR.

So far as I understood, as 1 book is was far too large for publication and it was broken up into 2 and then finally 3 books.

Book 4 is when RJ really starts getting away from the LOTR chasing/being chased meta and begins really building on his cultures, world and begins to tighten/tidy up his magic system.

There's a lot of things in books 1-3 that we later began calling early bookisms due to them not really following the rules established further into the series.

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Yeah, agree with this and others. 

 

It'd have been nice to go back and rewrite those in light of where things went. That said it's a fun journey and I'm not reading this (well audio book) for anything consise or deep. So the twists and turns are welcome. 

[Figs and Mice]

I don't altogether agree with the criticisms of the first three books around RJ being unsure how long he had to tell the full story.  And was interested to see the "Six Book" contract HHMB referenced above as it seems to contradict the idea that he was writing each book as if it were his last.

 

It is certainly true that he did finish at least the first two books with rather messy endings that could  be viewed as attempts to make them promotable as stand alone volumes ; but it was obvious from the amount of foreshadowing scattered throughout that he was preparing for the long term. And I for one found these early parts of the series hugely interesting , despite the obvious similarities to the hero's journey familiar to not just LOTR but numerous other fantasy novels. His characters were mostly interesting , the world building fascinating throughout , and it had me hooked from the start. Definitely a strong sense that there was a lot more to come : and although I only started reading the series after its completion , I am sure I would have been just as determined to stick with it had I picked them up at the time of first release.

 

Was everything perfect ? Of course not ; "untidy magic systems" is probably a fair complaint ; but I don't think the minor flaws detract to the extent that they needed editing out.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I can understand perhaps the way Jordan wrote the first few books - perhaps in twisted real life foreshadowing of his own untimely demise, he did not want people to think the pay off was only coming 5-6 books hence and therefore wait until the series was finished. 

 

One of the main issues I think with the first book especially is hindsight. If you have no knowledge of the story, it is masterful in explaining the building blocks you need to understand the Dragon's story without being obvious about it. A rough fantastical background is laid down in the common imagination (evil Aes Sedai and gem encrusted Warders). The One Power is explained through Egwene's discovery that she was born with the spark. The trolloc wars and the thousands of years of struggle against the Shadow is explained through the history of Manetheren. Rand almost appears as an old fashioned observatory narrator, a modern day Captain Hastings, a sounding board for our ignorant reactions.

 

However, once you have access to the books, even if you don't read the blurbs of the later books, the third is called the Dragon Reborn, so there is no doubt as to what is coming, no real difficulty in guessing Rand's future role. I mean the Dragon could be an antagonist or a mentor or misunderstood in some way, but really, the breadcrumming of information must seem so obvious and slow. This is something that the show had to deal with and why for me at least the first seasons were always going to be problematic. 

Edited April 30 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[Asthereal]

I seem to remember the original plan for the series was a trilogy, where book 1 was supposed to be everything up to the ending of The Dragon Reborn. But Jordan was a bit of a discovery writer and everything became longer than planned. And then even longer, and so on. 🙂