Who is Mesaana?

[Luckers]

That part of KoD overlaps with CoT and WH.  The Trollocs and Myrddraal Moridin refers to are the ones who attacked Rand at the Manor.  They were ordered into the Ways BEFORE the Cleansing.

 

No, they weren't.  Aran'gar and Mesaana make reference to Egwene's capture, which takes place more than a week (ten days) after the Cleansing. This was therefore a day or two after Logain was at the Black Tower sending Asha'men to Illian and Arad Domon on Rand's command, and thus a day or two after Taim was in a position to learn of Rand's location. A day or two after that, the Trollocs attack, which is precisely the time it would take them to have travelled the Ways, and then made it from Shangtai to Tear.

 

So Luckers are you putting forth support

for Taim's field promotion to Chosen?  It fits

(somewhat, I'm not sure how completely) with

the "Moridin's chairs" problem.

 

Or is there possibly a way to "counterfeit" the

Chosen mark?

 

I am indeed putting that forth. It also matches with what Shadar Haren does with Alviarin. She, who is not that strong, nor achieved much, gains a weaker version of the mark. Taim on the other hand is as strong as Demandred or Aginor, has gathered a hundred men or more for the Shadow, and is almost certainly shadow trained. The Dark One has a stated appreciation for the skills of his Age of Legenders, yet having to rely on them only is something he specifically does not like, and given the betrayals of Lanfear and Moghedian...

 

Raising Taim makes sense. He is the only candidate who the Dark One could appreciate. the Dark One needs such as him, and the actions of a random with the Chosen Mark match him.

 

The Shadowspawn could have been ordered to a more central staging area to await final word on Rand's location as well.  In that case, they WERE ordered into the Ways before the Cleansing.

 

No, Moridin's comments are immediate, and Mesaana and Aran'gar's experiencs place a time frame. This was after the Cleansing--by nearly a week.

 

No way to fake the Chosen Mark.  It can't be seen by any but Shadowspawn.  Nobody knows what it looks like, how it works, or anything else that would be needed to make a successful fake.

 

Agreed.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The meeting where Moridin reveals that "Sammael" has ordered Shadowspawn into the Ways certainly takes place after the Cleansing, but the ordering itself occurred before then.

[havoc110]

Someone needs to step it up in the Dark Side recruitment office.

 

I mean you got 13 AoL'ers and they were supposedly the GREATEST of many.

 

But also take into account that the 13th greatest was, well, Asmo.

 

But if you look at the Dark Siders from the 3rd age, and go down the depth chart to #13, what do you have?  Some minor BA sister?  Something less than Asmo, to be sure.

 

Of course Dark has spent a lot of time scouting and recruiting their next

#1 pick, Rand.

[Bob T Dwarf]

To expand a little further -

 

By the time of the meeting in KoD where Moridin talks about Sam and Shadowspawn, it's been about six weeks since their last get-together.  He's just bringing everybody up-to-date on what's happened since then.  All he really says is:

"Sammael appears to have resurfaced," Moridin announced, crossing the floor to take a seat... "Nevertheless, Sammael, or someone disguised as him, gave orders to Myrddraal and they obeyed, so it was one of the Chosen." ...

Then, when challenged to reveal what the orders were, he responds:

Moridin's jaw tightened.  "I don't know," he said at last, reluctantly.  He never liked saying that.  "But they sent a hundred Myrddrall and thousands of Trollocs into the Ways."

 

All past tense and no way of telling for sure how recent.

 

As Luckers says, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the order to have been given after it was confirmed that Rand had Callandor and the CK keys in his possession, so I therefore conclude that the initial orders were given before the Cleansing.  When it might have been possible to kill or capture him before they had to face him while he was using the CK.

 

It was just bad luck that the original order wasn't given in time to catch him still in Far Madding where he would have been unable to channel.  I've got no doubt that the force that was sent could have captured the city and killed everyone in it.

 

Unluckily for the Dark, he didn't move far enough off, and the attack was finally carried through, costing them an appreciable portion of their army.

 

Can we say, "ta'veren"?  I knew we could.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Additionally, my best guess is that the Shadowspawn idea came from Osan'gar.  He was the last one known to be in contact with Kisman, Rochaid, etal.  The idea for them to lure Rand to Far Madding probably came from him.  All sub rosa like all the other unsanctioned plots to avoid having to face Rand while he was using the keys that were underway at the same time.

 

Once Aginor got himself killed yet again, Demandred, who was in-on that plot, stepped in and gave the final orders sending the Shadowspawn to the Manor.

 

So, to correct what I initially said, Osan'gar was the one posing as Sam.  Demandred was the one who picked up the gauntlet after Osan'gar died.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Someone needs to step it up in the Dark Side recruitment office.

 

They dunt need no steenking recruiters.  THEY ARE THE CHOSEN!!! The self-evident MASTERS OF ALL!!!

 

[bow twelve times and genuflect on your belly fifteen times on your way out - OR ELSE!]

[havoc110]

Yeah, but it makes you wonder about even simple casual observations that could be made: (sort of like your other questions thread).

 

1)  In AoL, things seems much more even.  I mean the had the Dreadlords, all 13 Chosen survived until the sealing of the Bore, and HELLO, they still didn't win. What's with all the arrogance?  What exactly were they thinking about while they were down there?  Maybe, hmmmm, exactly how did that go wrong?

 

2)  Why seal people into the bore in the 1st place?  Comparative "children" during the 3rd age figure out they can use Balefire to blast the Chosen into less than nothingness.  If they were balefiring entire cities, why not one of the Chosen?  It appears that they are not quick enough to get out of the way...

[metria31183]

Yeah, but it makes you wonder about even simple casual observations that could be made: (sort of like your other questions thread).

 

1)  In AoL, things seems much more even.  I mean the had the Dreadlords, all 13 Chosen survived until the sealing of the Bore, and HELLO, they still didn't win. What's with all the arrogance?  What exactly were they thinking about while they were down there?  Maybe, hmmmm, exactly how did that go wrong?

 

There were more than 13 Chosen in the AoL, these 13 just happened to be at Shayol Ghul for some sort of meeting and get sealed in when the Hundred Companions struck.  And none of them could think except Ishamael (he was only partially trapped).  The rest were in a dreamless sleep, completely unaware of the rest of the world.

 

2)  Why seal people into the bore in the 1st place?  Comparative "children" during the 3rd age figure out they can use Balefire to blast the Chosen into less than nothingness.  If they were balefiring entire cities, why not one of the Chosen?  It appears that they are not quick enough to get out of the way...

 

See above for why seal people in the Bore.  Both side stopped using balefire because it was unraveling the pattern.  It was kind of and unspoken truce between the Light and the Dark that balefire was too dangerous to use.

[Cybertrolloc]

Taim, on the other hand, makes alot of sense. It fits his MO--blunt assualt at the hope it achieves his needs so long as it can't be traced backed to him. Furthermore we have the fact that three days prior he was desperate to learn Rands location--and for all that he didn't learn it from Logain, there are his men to account for, and even more importantly the Aes Sedai who directly stated their intent to use the rift between Logain and Taim to destroy the Black Tower. Three days, the exact amount of time required to travel the ways, and then the distance between Shangtai and the manor in Tear.

This thread took an unexpected turn ;) I brought this up before in your Taim thread, but that one also drifted a bit:

 

- Taim (fleshed out character he is) disdains conventional warfare every time he's on stage.

 

+/- Taim doesn't have that high an opinion of Rand, but last we saw them together was at the end of PoD ("you're harder than I thought.")

 

+ Taim's ordered Rand dead before.

- He had channelers do it.

+ They blew it.

 

Currently on the KoD attack, I can't really see what it was expected to accomplish for some presumably Shadow end. Outside Moridin/DO spurring Rand to start Tarmon Gaidan that is, and Moridin playing mindgames with the rest of the Forsaken.

[Bob T Dwarf]

metria -

 

I think havoc was being more facetious than serious.

 

The point is valid though.  Yes, there were more than 13 Chosen... but the rest all died in obscurity.  Only the 13 we know about survived the AoL and Breaking.  And, they did not win, so what is it really that they have to feel so smug and arrogant about?

[metria31183]

I suppose it depends on definitions of win.  In the AoL the DO did not touch the world, there was world peace, no poverty, basically as someone has said before, a utopian society.  In the 3,000 years since the AoL, there have been wars, people struggle to survive, the DO still has some influence on the world, basically, there has been relative chaos.  Even though they ended up imprisoned, the idyllic, utopian society was destroyed and replaced by fragmented chaos.  I would call that at least a draw.

[metria31183]

By the way, did anyone ever figure out who Mesaana was?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Currently on the KoD attack, I can't really see what it was expected to accomplish for some presumably Shadow end. Outside Moridin/DO spurring Rand to start Tarmon Gaidan that is, and Moridin playing mindgames with the rest of the Forsaken.

 

I'm guessing that by the time of the KoD attack, Demandred was faced with a use-em-or-lose-em situation.  He, Semi, and Mesaana have all been working together to get control of Rand for a long time now.  Note how the KoD kaffe klatsch opens.  Those three are off in a corner talking very quietly and intently to each other.  So focused on, and in Demandred's case, upset or angry about their private topic, that they ignore how intently Graendal is studying them.  Dangerous for people who instinctively expect to be knifed in the back.

 

String one of their bow - Shadowspawn attack Rand at the Manor, capture if possible, kill if necessary.

String two of their bow - Semirhage attacks Rand at the other Manor, capture if possible, kill if necessary.

String three of their bow - if all else fails, Mesaana has her pet AS capture or kill him if/when he finally goes to Tar Valon.

[havoc110]

actually, I was being more forgetful than facetious.

 

I'm all for getting back to the Mesaana discussion.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nah, nobody knows for sure who she is.

 

Best candidate, based on description and behavior is Danelle.  But, we aint gonna know for sure for another year and a half.

[metria31183]

Someone remind me, is there a POV from Mesaana in any of the books?

[havoc110]

Only LoC prologue

[metria31183]

I thought that was Semirhage.  I will have to re-read.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No.  It's the second to last section of the Prologue.  The meeting where Demandred spells out the LoC plan.  Only Moggy and Sammael are missing from those still alive and active.

... "You want to know what the Great Lord told me?  Very well.  But it stays here, held close.  Since Sammael chose to stay away, he learns nothing.  Nor do the others, whether alive or dead.  The first part of the Great Lord's message was simple. 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule.'  His words exact."  The corners of his mouth twitched, as close to a smile as Mesaana had ever seen from him.  Then he told them the rest.

[metria31183]

Thank you Bob.  I re-read that when I got home yesterday afternoon.  I was confusing that with the passage later in the book where Semirhage torture Cabriana and her Warder.

[havoc110]

In case you don't know about it metria, there a PoV index at the

WotMania site Reference Desk.

 

The only problem is it is only current thru CoT. I made that mistake

earlier, where I missed a PoV from Tarna.

 

So you have to scan the EWoT summaries to check the PoV's in KoD.

[RAND AL THOR]

Isn't it possible that Messana is walking around invisible? She can hide the glow and make herself invisible with saidar. ?? ???

[havoc110]

Possible, but difficult to pull strings in the WT, if you don't exist as a person.

 

Could be done, though.  Forging documents, compulsion, etc.

 

Stems from a book signing where RJ confirms that Mesaana's alter ego had been "on-stage".  He also said that the clues were there to be found. (don't recall which book tour at the moment).

[Luckers]

As Luckers says, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the order to have been given after it was confirmed that Rand had Callandor and the CK keys in his possession, so I therefore conclude that the initial orders were given before the Cleansing.  When it might have been possible to kill or capture him before they had to face him while he was using the CK.

 

Except that A) their appearence in Tear means that they entered the ways no more than three days prior, thus, seven days after the cleansing. And B) Moridin commands a watch be kept for Trollocs appearing south of the blight--appearing. He does not ask for news of Trollocs south of the blight, but rather commands a watch be kept.

 

Furthermore, a simple fact shows the command was given after the Cleansing--the Trollocs went straight to the manor in Tear. Rand was not there, nor had any connections to there, until after the Cleansing. End of game.

 

It was just bad luck that the original order wasn't given in time to catch him still in Far Madding where he would have been unable to channel.  I've got no doubt that the force that was sent could have captured the city and killed everyone in it.

 

They went straight to the manor--no deviations. The attack was directed there. Which means either they had their instructions changed, or they were sent there to begin with--both means interactions with the commander following the Cleansing, and both present the obvious problem. Add that to Moridin's immediacy, and the time of travelling the ways--no, they were sent more than seven days after the Cleansing, coinciding exactly with when Taim was looking for Rand.

 

- Taim (fleshed out character he is) disdains conventional warfare every time he's on stage.

 

Actually he disdains men who can channel fighting physically. Conventional warfare he seemingly embraced, and was quite good at. He had Bashere beaten at Irinjavar.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Your points rely entirely on your conception of how long it would take a Trolloc army to travel the Ways from the Blight to Tear.  They also ignore the fact that Machin Shin now seems able to track Rand wherever he goes and is right there waiting if he opens any Waygate.

 

That's an awfully long way.  Machin Shin is likely to be somewhere close the the nearest Waygate to Rand. 

Thousands of miles + tens of thousands of troops + dodging Machin Shin= long time.