Aram

[lou]

honestly, its not likely that perrin has given any thought at all about aram's affiliations (or lack of) as his whole world was put on hold until he freed faile. now he has her safely with him, perrin's mind is likely even more utra focused on his wife.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh I'm not mad.  Don't worry ... I would tell you if I was mad.

 

But, you proved my point.  The link between Demandred and Masema is speculated about by readers because of a conversation between Sammael and Graendal.  Perrin didn't hear that conversation.  Neither did Demandred.  So why would Demandred think Perrin could trace Aram to him?

 

No, there is no reason for Demandred to be creating a "back-up plan" at the risk of exposing his original plan, assuming it originated with Demandred at all.

[lou]

is there a possibilty that aram was the tinker that "bors" saw at the DF meeting? if so, then that would explain aram's actions.

[rd2000]

The reason people speculate that Masema is a link to Demandred is because the "events to the south" of Arad Doman most likely points to Masema. The Whitecloaks are the only other thing of notice to the south then, and I believe Pedron Nial was their leader then. His POV's showed pretty conclusively that he was not a darkfriend while nothing similar exists for Masema.

 

What point of yours specifically did I prove BTW? It escapes me. I have never put any of this forward as fact, only supposition and speculation.

 

Demandred would be worried about his connection to Masema being exposed if Masema was brought before Rand or those in Rand's company. Demandred doesn't want Rand discovering his identity or location. Much better to have Masema die than to go to Rand. Or at least position Masema as an enemy of Perrin and therefore, Rand.

[Child of Lir]

What point of yours specifically did I prove BTW? It escapes me. I have never put any of this forward as fact, only supposition and speculation.

 

 

I think you are both saying the same thing, although in different ways. RAW is saying that we have no facts about a link between Demandred and Masema, which is true; and rd2000 is saying that we can speculate that there is a link because of the conversation between Sammael and Graendal, although we have nothing to prove this.

 

RJ dropped us a big hint here, and we have no other real hints about what Demandred is up to for us to speculate on, so we are naturally led down this path. But, as both of you say, there's no hard evidence. Is that a fair summary do you think?

[demonspawn]

I think Aram started to go against Perrin after Faile was taken by the Shaido.

 

When Perrin passed out in the snow keeping his vigil with Talanvor and was then taken into Berelains tent and spent the night.

 

After this his attitude towards perrin changed as I think he saw this as a betrayal of Faile, Masema added to these doubts with his ows stories of being shadowspawn.

[RobertAlexWillis]

What point of yours specifically did I prove BTW? It escapes me. I have never put any of this forward as fact, only supposition and speculation.

 

The point that the link between Demandred and Masema is based on something that Perrin has zero chance of knowing.  And therefore Demandred has no need to make a "back-up plan".

 

Look, I'm not saying that Demandred isn't messing with Masema.  I buy that.  If it isn't Demandred, it could be Jeaine Caide and Berylla Naron.  My point is, there is absolutely no way Perrin knows that, so, making Aram come for multiple meetings over a period of time to "cover their tracks" makes no sense if they're using Compulsion.  If they're using Compulsion Masema would bring him in once, maybe twice if the channelers weren't there for the first meeting, Compel him, and then tell him to lay low and wait for his chance.  The only reason for the multiple extended meetings we saw is that Masema needed time to twist his fanaticism using normal methods.

[rd2000]

What I have been trying to explain to you is that Masema is the patsy here. He does not control Aram, Demandred does. Demandred wanted it to look like Masema drove/convinced Aram to kill Perrin.

 

Demandred does not want Masema in Rand's hands. He could simply have Masema killed, but why do that when he can have Perrin killed, have it blamed on Masema, and thus have Perrin's followers kill Masema.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK ... so you're saying that Aram trying to kill Perrin was actually Demandred's way of getting rid of Masema?

 

That at least makes sense with the rest of your posts.  I don't agree with it, but its not impossible, given your assumptions.  I just don't think its the case at all.

[ilgross]

Why would Demmy care even if it was found out to be him, its not like Perrin and him are the best of friedns anyway, and there is not a lot Perrin could do in revenge.

 

Rand might get annoyed but really he is a bit annoyed with all the Forsaken at the moment.

[Trib4l]

is there a possibilty that aram was the tinker that "bors" saw at the DF meeting? if so, then that would explain aram's actions.

 

"Bors" was later revealed to be Jaichim Carradin. He was revealed as Bors in Chapter 38 of the Shadow Rising. He was later drowned with brandy in the House on Full Moon Street by the Lady Shiaine's (aka Mili Skane) servant, Murellin.

[Child of Lir]

Yes, but Lou was asking about the Tinker that Bors saw, not Bors himself...

 

In answer to Lou though - there's nothing to suggest Aram was a Darkfriend, and everything to suggest he wasn't.

[Trib4l]

Drrrrrr... Pays to read more carefully.

[shane5408]

I have to admit i never considered that Aram may have been forced to attack perrin but i think that atleast part of the reason he did it is because something snapped inside him.  Remember all that time ago when aram and perin were in the two rivers? aram and his people were attacked and could do nothing as seekers do not harm people.  on that day aram saw people he cared about die and reacted very strongly, he decided then and there he wanted to take up a sword and fight.  his parents, or unlces and aunts (can't remember which) begged him not too but when he asked perrin if he could join him perrin said he would noy stop any man ferom wanting to fight shadow and defend himself (again rough estimate!).  At this point arams parents, uncles, aunts etc effectively disowned him.  i think this is the point where the slow ticking time bomb starts ticking inside aram. 

 

as the sory continues aram is forced to fight and kill, rj makes particular emphasis that he stays very close to perrin, almost reveres him.  its as if he's trying to justify what he's doing, forsaking his people and their beliefs by replacing it with the need to follow perrin.  yet slowly, the decision to leave his people is wearing him down.

 

then he starts spending time with masema who attacks perrin's credibility, the one thing keeping a hold of aram, from then on i think it was just a matter of time before he snapped and timebomb elapsed. 

[Child of Lir]

Yes, Aram tipping over the edge was a disaster waiting to happen.