New user, came to vent.

[DigificWriter]

I once again feel obligated to point out that, regardless of how any individual fan or non-fan felt about it, the show's obfuscation of the identity of the Dragon Reborn was not just a 'mystery box' plot line: it was the manifestation of a choice to fundamentally alter the core Reincarnation-related lore of the Wheel of Time world.

 

Said choice meaning that the Dragon Reborn could have legitimately been any character, and this one fundamental truth is not changed by the fact that, in the end, the choice was made to leave the identity of the Dragon Reborn the same as it was in the source material.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:14 PM, DigificWriter said:

I once again feel obligated to point out that, regardless of how any individual fan or non-fan felt about it, the show's obfuscation of the identity of the Dragon Reborn was not just a 'mystery box' plot line: it was the manifestation of a choice to fundamentally alter the core Reincarnation-related lore of the Wheel of Time world.

 

Said choice meaning that the Dragon Reborn could have legitimately been any character, and this one fundamental truth is not changed by the fact that, in the end, the choice was made to leave the identity of the Dragon Reborn the same as it was in the source material.

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Sorry. I don’t agree with this at all. You’re hanging on a single line “could be a boy or a girl” and assuming a reliable narrator. The line was in service of the mystery box, not the other way around.

[DigificWriter]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:17 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Sorry. I don’t agree with this at all. You’re hanging on a single line “could be a boy or a girl” and assuming a reliable narrator. The line was in service of the mystery box, not the other way around.

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I'm not making the statement I made based on that one single line; I'm making it based directly on comments from Rafe himself - given in an interview conducted just prior to the debut of Season 1 - that directly addressed the subject of reincarnation and the gendered nature of souls and that clarified/established that, for the TV series, he and his writers had intentionally chosen to do away with Robert Jordan's strictures on gender-based reincarnation, thus allowing for male souls to be reincarnated in female bodies and vice versa.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:25 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

I'm not making the statement I made based on that one single line; I'm making it based directly on comments from Rafe himself - given in an interview conducted just prior to the debut of Season 1 - that directly addressed the subject of reincarnation and the gendered nature of souls and that clarified/established that, for the TV series, he and his writers had intentionally chosen to do away with Robert Jordan's strictures on gender-based reincarnation, thus allowing for male souls to be reincarnated in female bodies and vice versa.

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If I’ve seen those, I’ve forgotten them. Please provide a link. 

[fearbrog]

  On 12/17/2024 at 4:43 PM, expat said:

My argument has always been that the books COULD NOT BE FILMED as written

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  On 12/17/2024 at 4:43 PM, expat said:

understand that these changes were a necessary part of the adaptation process.  

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You still not explaining. I genuinely do not understand. Why Egwene being saved by Nyn couldn't be filmed. Why was it necessary for THIS thing to be changed? You saying you understand, so please explain.

 

  On 12/17/2024 at 4:40 PM, Kaleb said:

POV was so uncharacteristically dominant in The Eye Of The World and The Great Hunt, which are the main sources for the show's events so far.

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It's not uncharacteristically. He has most pov overall. Despite main theme and his realisation at mountain he still is central and main character. Despite everyone have their stories his stoll story came first and evolved into everyone's. Through him we are meeting the world. It was okay to start from simple and go to complex. But show for some reason needed to start complex give attention to everyone, except Rand and Mat

  On 12/17/2024 at 4:40 PM, Kaleb said:

Every main character is having their story pared back because the show has much less space to tell the story

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Rand's and Perrin's character cut back. Moiraine greatly expanded, she even has sister now. Instead of Rand's sword training or leadership position with Hurin we now see her dealing with being stilled or not

[Elder_Haman]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:31 PM, fearbrog said:

 

You still not explaining. I genuinely do not understand. Why Egwene being saved by Nyn couldn't be filmed. Why was it necessary for THIS thing to be changed? You saying you understand, so please explain.

 

It's not uncharacteristically. He has most pov overall. Despite main theme and his realisation at mountain he still is central and main character. Despite everyone have their stories his stoll story came first and evolved into everyone's. Through him we are meeting the world. It was okay to start from simple and go to complex. But show for some reason needed to start complex give attention to everyone, except Rand and Mat

Rand's and Perrin's character cut back. Moiraine greatly expanded, she even has sister now. Instead of Rand's sword training or leadership position with Hurin we now see her dealing with being stilled or not

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They are building Rand more slowly than in the books. That’s not necessarily a poor choice. And when your biggest actress has nothing to do for an entire book’s worth of content, you create content to keep her central - especially since you’ll need her back. 
 

 

[DigificWriter]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:26 PM, Elder_Haman said:

If I’ve seen those, I’ve forgotten them. Please provide a link. 

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Here you go:

https://gizmodo.com/adapting-the-wheel-of-time-for-tv-is-an-epic-all-its-ow-1848026456

[Elder_Haman]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:37 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Here you go:

https://gizmodo.com/adapting-the-wheel-of-time-for-tv-is-an-epic-all-its-ow-1848026456

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Eh. Okay. This seems kind of like a nothing burger to me. I’ll wait for it to actually matter before I get mad about it. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:40 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Eh. Okay. This seems kind of like a nothing burger to me. I’ll wait for it to actually matter before I get mad about it. 

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We've already seen additional manifestations of souls not being gendered in the TV series (beyond the obfuscation of the Dragon Reborn's identuty), namely Rand's comment to Loial in Blood Calls Blood about Egwene's love of The Travels of Jain Farstrider and the hallucinations/visions that Mat experiences in Season 2 while he's held captive by Ishy.

[fearbrog]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:34 PM, Elder_Haman said:

They are building Rand more slowly than in the books. That’s not necessarily a poor choice.

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It's not just slowly, for two seasons he denied almost everything he did in two books. No Tarwin's gap, no Falme, no Turak, no Hurin and Ingtar, no Caemlyn, no Cairhein, no flicker. Even Eye of the World subverted from his triumph into failure.

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:34 PM, Elder_Haman said:

when your biggest actress has nothing to do for an entire book’s worth of content, you create content to keep her central - especially since you’ll need her back. 

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Why not cut Tar Valon? Girls also have more story in future books. Why sacrifice Rand's storyline?

[Elder_Haman]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:53 PM, fearbrog said:

Why not cut Tar Valon? Girls also have more story in future books. Why sacrifice Rand's storyline?

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Because Rand is going to become the antagonist for awhile and you want to be invested in the other characters when that happens. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:50 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

We've already seen additional manifestations of souls not being gendered in the TV series (beyond the obfuscation of the Dragon Reborn's identuty), namely Rand's comment to Loial in Blood Calls Blood about Egwene's love of The Travels of Jain Farstrider and the hallucinations/visions that Mat experiences in Season 2 while he's held captive by Ishy.

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But has it actually mattered to the plot in any meaningful way?

[fearbrog]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:57 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Because Rand is going to become the antagonist

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But Rand was never antagonist. He was always protagonist. Even with madness he still acted in best interest of the Randland.

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:34 PM, Elder_Haman said:

building Rand more slowly than in the books

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  On 12/17/2024 at 7:57 PM, Elder_Haman said:

you want to be invested in the other characters when that happens. 

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Even if show goes full madman Rand those two quotes contradictory. So we need to build other characters, but don't we need to build Rand and give him time to be protagonist. If show won't let him be hero before painting him villain, how would we be invested in his redemption instead of his defeat

[Kaleb]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:31 PM, fearbrog said:

It's not uncharacteristically. He has most pov overall. Despite main theme and his realisation at mountain he still is central and main character. Despite everyone have their stories his stoll story came first and evolved into everyone's. Through him we are meeting the world. It was okay to start from simple and go to complex. 

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The first two books are absolutely out of character with the rest of the series in the percentage of Rand's POV, he's almost the entire first book and more than half of the second, but ends up at a little over 20% of the whole series. This chart is a nice visualizer of that fact.

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/2479849/

 

In the books, yes, Rand is the vehicle for meeting the rest of the characters and world. That's not the only way to tell the story, and when producing a TV show, there are all kinds of factors - from casting great actors to keeping audiences invested - that would lead them to favor multiple lead characters with narratives that drive the story forward. Robert Jordan did this himself in the books, so this demand that Rand has to be the dominant character is about to be an open contradiction of what happens in the books, starting with Season 3 and the stories of Book 4. The TV show switching gears from Rand as the sole focus to bringing everyone else into main character status would be awkward, and the writers made the entirely justified choice to start with multiple leads. 

 

 

They didn't need to make Moiraine one of those leads, but I frankly think it was a great choice, because she's the only one at the outset who can give us any sort of background lore. I think it could have been interesting to make Thom our Gandalf-figure who instigates the EF5's journey and provides that background, but nobody else present at Winternight could have done it. Either way, if Rand is presented as a sort of Frodo "nobody saddled with a great destiny" then it would only increase the sense of being a LOTR derivative, and there are all kinds of reasons the show didn't want to go there.

 

[expat]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:31 PM, fearbrog said:

 

You still not explaining. I genuinely do not understand. Why Egwene being saved by Nyn couldn't be filmed. Why was it necessary for THIS thing to be changed? You saying you understand, so please explain.

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I don't remember what scene you are referring to here so I have no idea, but why are you fixated on single scenes?  The adaptation requires major changes for reasons I've given in this thread.  That particular change might have been bad/unnecessary or it might be part of a larger mosaic which was put in for specific reasons like trying to infuse the necessary elements of cut material back into the story, presenting the characters in a visual setting instead of a POV setting or any number of other adaptation reasons.  Again, the only argument I'm trying to make is that not liking it because it isn't the books is self-defeating because it never was and never could be the books.  I've never argued that the writers didn't make mistakes in their adaptation decisions or their implementations.  This change might well have been a mistake.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 12/17/2024 at 8:22 PM, fearbrog said:

But Rand was never antagonist. He was always protagonist. Even with madness he still acted in best interest of the Randland.

 

Even if show goes full madman Rand those two quotes contradictory. So we need to build other characters, but don't we need to build Rand and give him time to be protagonist. If show won't let him be hero before painting him villain, how would we be invested in his redemption instead of his defeat

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I didn't say that. And I generally agree with you that Rand has not had enough screen time. But I'm pretty sure that Rand is about to get his this season. If they do it right, he'll get a season or season and a half as an unquestioned hero before he starts to slide into antagonist territory.

 

Rand always being the protagonist would make for kind of boring television. They haven't handled him perfectly by any means, but his arc is still pretty much the same: S1/B1 - Rand has no idea what he's doing; S2/B2 - Rand doesn't want to admit he's the Dragon; S3/B3 - Rand affirmatively claims the mantle of the Dragon.

[expat]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:31 PM, fearbrog said:

You still not explaining. I genuinely do not understand. Why Egwene being saved by Nyn couldn't be filmed. Why was it necessary for THIS thing to be changed? You saying you understand, so please explain.

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I went back and reread some of the thread and understand what you are asking now.  Primarily, I think you completely misunderstood the larger context that the scene.  In the books, the important issue was that Nyn and the others didn't abandon Egwene, risked their lives in trying to find a way to help her, and finally attempted a rescue.  The mechanics of the rescue are completely generic and uninteresting.  In the series, Nyn and the others didn't abandon Egwene, risked their lives in trying to find a way to help her, and finally attempted a rescue.  The series was true to the important element of the story and also attempted to highlight Egwene's character by changing the (unimportant) details of the rescue.  I think that it is telling that you concentrated on a specific set of actions as the key to the scene instead of the broader overall context the scene was trying to tell.   I think this is one of the important disconnects between us, I am trying to see the series from a holistic/emotional level without being too caught up in specific actions while you see the actions themselves as a fundamental part of the story.

[DigificWriter]

The amount of narrative focus that Rand has received is 'diminished' relative to the novels because, for better or worse, he is not the 'primary POV character' of this Turning. The overall story is his, but it is being told through the point of view and perspective of Moiraine.

[Samt]

  On 12/17/2024 at 7:14 PM, DigificWriter said:

I once again feel obligated to point out that, regardless of how any individual fan or non-fan felt about it, the show's obfuscation of the identity of the Dragon Reborn was not just a 'mystery box' plot line: it was the manifestation of a choice to fundamentally alter the core Reincarnation-related lore of the Wheel of Time world.

 

Said choice meaning that the Dragon Reborn could have legitimately been any character, and this one fundamental truth is not changed by the fact that, in the end, the choice was made to leave the identity of the Dragon Reborn the same as it was in the source material.

Expand  

This is the fiction writing version of the alcoholic who can quit whenever he wants to.  It was always going to be Rand and anyone who says differently is either creating intrigue or not really paying attention to the long term effects.  
 

With things like Jain Farstrider, I tend to just assume that nobody was paying attention to the details rather than ascribing meaning to throw away lines.  Occam’s razor is that somebody assumed Jain is a girl’s name and didn’t check.  Also, there is a Firefly tangent in here somewhere.

[fearbrog]

  On 12/17/2024 at 9:13 PM, expat said:

The series was true to the important element of the story and also attempted to highlight Egwene's character by changing the (unimportant) details of the rescue.  I think that it is telling that you concentrated on a specific set of actions as the key to the scene instead of the broader overall context the scene was trying to tell.   I think this is one of the important disconnects between us, I am trying to see the series from a holistic/emotional level without being too caught up in specific actions while you see the actions themselves as a fundamental part of the story.

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But it's not unimportant detail. Isn't major theme of series is Rand can't and shouldn't do everything himself. People argued reason he needs to be kneeled and saved by everyone else in s2 is reflection of that theme and reminder not to abandon his friends. And yet Egwene can do everything herself, she doesn't need to be saved from impossible trap, nothing can't handle her. Two protagonists are learning completely different lessons. Overall context is Rand useless without others, Egwene perfectly fine without others.

 

  On 12/17/2024 at 8:36 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Rand always being the protagonist would make for kind of boring television.

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We don't know that. Besides he wouldn't be sole pov, Perrin also should have had his time in s1 and Egg and Nyn s2.

  On 12/17/2024 at 8:36 PM, Elder_Haman said:

his arc is still pretty much the same

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Why couldn't his arc have cool moments in it? You know, like in a book?

  On 12/17/2024 at 8:36 PM, Elder_Haman said:

But I'm pretty sure that Rand is about to get his this season

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We 2 for 2 of Rand not getting it

  On 12/17/2024 at 8:31 PM, Kaleb said:

In the books, yes, Rand is the vehicle for meeting the rest of the characters and world. That's not the only way to tell the story, and when producing a TV show, there are all kinds of factors - from casting great actors to keeping audiences invested - that would lead them to favor multiple lead characters with narratives that drive the story forward. Robert Jordan did this himself in the books, so this demand that Rand has to be the dominant character is about to be an open contradiction of what happens in the books, starting with Season 3 and the stories of Book 4. The TV show switching gears from Rand as the sole focus to bringing everyone else into main character status would be awkward, and the writers made the entirely justified choice to start with multiple leads. 

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It is not contradiction. It would be like in a books going from simple 2-3 povs in s1 to more povs in future seasons, not switching gear but steady transition. But writers in race to make everyone important abandon Rand.

[DigificWriter]

  On 12/17/2024 at 11:54 PM, Samt said:

This is the fiction writing version of the alcoholic who can quit whenever he wants to.  It was always going to be Rand and anyone who says differently is either creating intrigue or not really paying attention to the long term effects.  
 

With things like Jain Farstrider, I tend to just assume that nobody was paying attention to the details rather than ascribing meaning to throw away lines.  Occam’s razor is that somebody assumed Jain is a girl’s name and didn’t check.  Also, there is a Firefly tangent in here somewhere.

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See the link I posted earlier and the contents thereof, which directly and explicitly refute this argument.

 

Rafe and his team are not even remotely as incompetent in terms of the ways they have approached the adaptation of these novels as some people keep trying to insist that they are.

[Samt]

  On 12/18/2024 at 12:05 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

See the link I posted earlier and the contents thereof, which directly and explicitly refute this argument.

 

Rafe and his team are not even remotely as incompetent in terms of the ways they have approached the adaptation of these novels as some people keep trying to insist that they are.

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That was lots of marketing and intrigue, like I said.  The dragon wasn’t ever going to be anyone else.  As far as competence, I’d say they are far more competent than you are giving them credit since they clearly understood that Rand needs to be the dragon.   If you think they were ever seriously considering making anyone else the dragon, you are the one questioning their competence.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 12/18/2024 at 12:04 AM, fearbrog said:

We don't know that.

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We do. It gives them plot armor and plays into fantasy tropes. It’s far better writing to play into the which way will he go, save the world or destroy it aspect of the Dragon. It allows you to build tension between Rand and his friends and his friends between one another - something Rand often plays to his advantage throughout the books. 

 

  On 12/18/2024 at 12:04 AM, fearbrog said:

Why couldn't his arc have cool moments in it? You know, like in a book

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He’s had some cool moments. He will get more. Keeping him nerfed for a bit also helps with power creep. 

 

  On 12/18/2024 at 12:04 AM, fearbrog said:

We 2 for 2 of Rand not getting it

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Yes. In service of better storytelling in a visual medium. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 12/18/2024 at 12:12 AM, Samt said:

That was lots of marketing and intrigue, like I said.  The dragon wasn’t ever going to be anyone else.  As far as competence, I’d say they are far more competent than you are giving them credit since they clearly understood that Rand needs to be the dragon.   If you think they were ever seriously considering making anyone else the dragon, you are the one questioning their competence.

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This is not how writing works.

 

Rafe has admitted that he and his writers never truly considered changing the identity of the Dragon Reborn. That does not mean that their decision to degender souls and therefore fundamentally alter the underlying lore of the novels as established by Robert Jordan did not provide them with the ability to make the choice of changing the Dragon's identity, nor does it mean that they did not make said change in ignorance of the knowledge that the option of changing the Dragon's identity was in fact on the table should they have wanted to exercise it.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 12/18/2024 at 12:34 AM, DigificWriter said:

That does not mean that their decision to degender souls and therefore fundamentally alter the underlying lore of the novels as established by Robert Jordan did not provide them with the ability to make the choice of changing the Dragon's identity,

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I mean we’re in Schroedinger’s script territory here. Who cares? What impact has this change had on the core of the story?