Could Birgitte be one of Elaynes children?

[Scarloc99]

I found myself wondering, at the end of MOL Birgitte says she can feel herself being reborn into the world soon, Elayne is pregnant, so is there a chance she could be reborn as royalty in her new life? 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I think it does imply somewhere (Birgette talking about Gaidal, iirc) that once they disappear from TAN that there will immediately be an infant being fed by their mother. So, iirc then the soul transfer occurs at birth, not at conception or during gestation. So it would be possible. But likely? Couldn't comment.

[wotfan4472]

The easy answer is no. Brigitte herself stated the last time we saw her in the books, she was being reborn.

 

Which means an infant girl was being born somewhere, and her soul was to inhabit that infant. There is no way she could be reborn as one of Elayne's children as a result.

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

The easy answer is no. Brigitte herself stated the last time we saw her in the books, she was being reborn.

 

Which means an infant girl was being born somewhere, and her soul was to inhabit that infant. There is no way she could be reborn as one of Elayne's children as a result.

This asks a difficult question, are children in WOT soulless until they are born? Does this mean that "life" does not begin until birth in WOT? As I type this maybe a bit heavy to get into here. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

There is not much that we can philosophize about, except exactly what Birgitte says (which I don't have to hand right now). Iirc, it would rule out conception, and would appear to be closer to, if not at the actual moment of delivery. 

 

The only point I could say that might add some extremely tenuous weight to the argument is that we know Elayne's children have recently become capable of surviving without their mother, and you could argue that this is the point that they acquire a soul (that they become individuals), and Birgitte is holding off the pull of rebirth... Really shaking stuff, but if Bela and Lanfear are alive, I would not refuse to bet on a long shot. 

 

Though that said, it would depend on the exact wording of all that Birgitte has said about her and Gaidal being reborn. 

 

Though this could be taken as the definition of looking too deeply into things 😄

[Scarloc99]

14 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

There is not much that we can philosophize about, except exactly what Birgitte says (which I don't have to hand right now). Iirc, it would rule out conception, and would appear to be closer to, if not at the actual moment of delivery. 

 

The only point I could say that might add some extremely tenuous weight to the argument is that we know Elayne's children have recently become capable of surviving without their mother, and you could argue that this is the point that they acquire a soul (that they become individuals), and Birgitte is holding off the pull of rebirth... Really shaking stuff, but if Bela and Lanfear are alive, I would not refuse to bet on a long shot. 

 

Though that said, it would depend on the exact wording of all that Birgitte has said about her and Gaidal being reborn. 

 

Though this could be taken as the definition of looking too deeply into things 😄

The other thing I have wondered is if the heroes souls "replace" mundane individuals at the point of birth, to avoid things like heroes dying during term or at birth. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

The other thing I have wondered is if the heroes souls "replace" mundane individuals at the point of birth, to avoid things like heroes dying during term or at birth. 

I think that would be pure speculation, as there is nothing that I can think of in the books that would offer any confirmation or contradiction to the theory. It also would not really make any difference if a thread was momentarily used for a prebirth hero, I cannot see any consequences one way or the other. 

[Sabio]

When they vanish they're reborn, so Brigette will be a few months older than Elayne's kids.  I think brigette did say something about "I am being reborn, now somewhere a woman is preparing to give birth.  It's happening"

[Finnssss22]

I remember there was a solid theory about Elayne's kids possibly being the Twins Shivan and Calian who are known for heralding in new Ages.

 

[wotfan4472]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:42 AM, Scarloc99 said:

This asks a difficult question, are children in WOT soulless until they are born? Does this mean that "life" does not begin until birth in WOT? As I type this maybe a bit heavy to get into here. 

Yes, they do not get souls until they are born. It must be because of the dangers of the Dark One possibly taking the soul before birth, the Creator could have locked him from possibly interfering with rebirth, when he can clearly keep the soul after death, even if he is touching the world.

 

There exist some cultures that say the soul inhabits before birth, and to go with that, they have either godly or demonic enemies in their myths that can take a soul before birth.

 

If the Dark One could do what is described here, then he could conceivably stop any births while touching the world.

Edited September 26, 2023 by wotfan4472

[Jsbrads2]

Scar, yes it is possible, but very unlikely, out of the thousands/millions of babies being born after her departure. And we have no idea how long after, it could be seconds, minutes, hours, days or longer, there is no evidence as to the timing.

Heavy, Birgitte saying she think Gaidal is nursing is not evidence of anything, Birgitte is hardly a philosopher on the timing of a soul entering the body of baby, and were she, she could be wrong.

Wotfan, the truth is Birgitte doesn’t know. This is just how she describes things, not reality.

Scar, Heros don’t need to replace ordinary souls, the Pattern also arranges the parents to meet and times the birth, the Pattern isn’t caught by surprise at the moment of birth and there is no chance of the Pattern being confounded by a death in stillbirth, the Pattern picks who gets a stillborn baby too.

Wotfan, I presume the Dark One’s abilities are somewhat inflated, either intentionally or unintentionally by Ishy and I’m leaning more to the prior. The Dark One has no power to impact the soul of baby before or after birth. We only have evidence of the Dark One able to have impact on the souls of his Channelers who have black wires connecting themselves to HIM, and obviously he must be able to kick the souls out of bodies, presume these are Darkfriends who are at the Bore.

[wotfan4472]

Well, my logic is, if the Dark One can poison saidin for 3000 years, then there is nothing that stops him setting up a similar weave that targets birth.

 

We have to assume that the Creator protects birthing, possibly by creating a weave that does that, by touching The Source itself to do it at the Moment of Creation, not the One Power.

[pehdrigues]

I think it's Birgite, this heavily implied by Elayne saying that she hopes to meet her again soon but also when Min tells Elayne there's something different/special about one of the twins. Tel'aran'Rhiod passage of time is different than the waking world, so we can't rely on Birgite's sense of time very much.