Rand's criminal negligence of Mazrim Taim

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

On something of a tangent, but I have always wondered why Taim orders Aginor (Osan'gar) to kill Rand in Cairhien. 

 

I mean the Black Tower does not supercede being being one of Chosen. Never seemed to make sense. (Maybe I am misremembering). Well unless at that point Taim was Demanded. 

[Bugglesley]

2 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

On something of a tangent, but I have always wondered why Taim orders Aginor (Osan'gar) to kill Rand in Cairhien. 

 

I mean the Black Tower does not supercede being being one of Chosen. Never seemed to make sense. (Maybe I am misremembering). Well unless at that point Taim was Demanded. 

I was looking up which book to look in for evidence on this when I stumbled across an oblique RJ answer to this question:

" Week 21

Submitted by: Brian R

Question:

One thing that's always confused me is just why Dashiva/Osangar chose to attack Rand (with the turncoat Asha'man) when he did. The last time we saw Rand with Dashiva before that was when they went together (with Flinn, Hopwil and Morr) to confront Cadsuane, and there didn't seem to be any one particular incident that would "set him off."

Robert Jordan Answers:

Partly this was guilty conscience working. Even people who don't have a conscience can have a guilty conscience, the sudden conviction - as when Rand came on Dashiva and the others - that somebody knows what they are up to. Add to this that Dashiva was plain getting tired of trailing around after Rand, taking orders. He's one of the Chosen, and the Dark One reclaimed him from death, which is really good, but he's been stuck in a decidedly second-rate body and stuck spying on Rand, fetching and carrying like a servant as he sees it, with hardly even an opportunity to put a spoke in Rand's wheels except in very minor ways. How much better if Rand simply died.

Summary:

Dashiva went after Rand as he was worried that Rand was on to him and really hated having to pretend to be less than he was."

https://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Question_of_the_Week#Week_21

 

So apparently this was a decision that Osan'gar/Aginor/Dashiva made of his own accord as a Chosen, and not following Taim. It's still unclear to me at that point whether he put Taim up to it, he agreed, or he just flat-out lied to the other Asha'man and claimed it was orders from The Boss, but at that point it hardly matters.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Bugglesley

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I did not even think of unreliable narrator. Though to be fair I cannot remember who said it to who, I was just thinking all the Asha'man knew it was M'hael that ordered it. 

 

And I suppose also if the others did not know he was a Chosen, then he would have to pretend the orders came from Taim anyway. 

 

Will need to pay more attention next read through. And also need to start making notes rather just hoping I'll remember it all, lol. 

[Sabio]

But we know from RJ's notes that Taim-andred was real and he was the one that originally killed Asmo.

 

The simple fact is Rand had way too much going on to also try and fix the BT.   He knew Taim was up to something he just didn't know how far Taim had turned to the shadow.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I dunno, it seems hard to imagine that Rand would set up an organisation then be totally happy that it was recruiting Dreadlords for the Shadow, that men that had pledged to him would be put at risk, including lots from the Two Rivers, that his trust in Taim had caused all this... It does not quite fit for me. Even if he would not risk a direct confrontation himself, why not outfit Logain to deal with it? Leaving the Black Tower as an asset for the Shadow just seems unhelpful. I mean the whole thing seems pretty reckless, maybe RJ's original payoff would have made more sense. 

[Bugglesley]

9 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I dunno, it seems hard to imagine that Rand would set up an organisation then be totally happy that it was recruiting Dreadlords for the Shadow, that men that had pledged to him would be put at risk, including lots from the Two Rivers, that his trust in Taim had caused all this... It does not quite fit for me. Even if he would not risk a direct confrontation himself, why not outfit Logain to deal with it? Leaving the Black Tower as an asset for the Shadow just seems unhelpful. I mean the whole thing seems pretty reckless, maybe RJ's original payoff would have made more sense. 

 

For one.. to reiterate other posts, it's not like he was on the couch watching TV and eating chips here. The man was busy.

 

For two, as to why it doesn't rise up the priority chart: I do think it's another RJ piece of wisdom... Rand was working on a "devil you know" basis. He knows Taim is:

- An arrogant megalomaniacal jerk

- Really unhappy with being placed "under" Rand and "replaced" as the Dragon

- A man who has been channeling for years, is not mad, probably isn't a forsaken because Bashere recognized him and he was running around before any of the Forsaken except Ishy were out, and is effective at creating human weapons.

 

As long as he's doing 3, he can be 1 and 2 all he wants. Rand hates that, by the way, but he has to become hard and do what is necessary. That's the core tenet of the Darth Rand philosophy. I'm blanking but I'm like 70% sure he goes through this exact calculus nearly word-for-word in a book.

 

The problem is that when people say "watch out for that sneaky ol Taim" to Rand, what he hears is "he's trying to usurp your authority and set himself up for after the Last Battle," not "he's a darkfriend/Forsaken and he's going to actively work against you at the Last Battle." Rand's so focused on forcing himself to be OK with possibility 1 he can't even let himself think about possibility 2... and that allows it to become reality.

 

Part 3 is that he (as Darth Rand) is really overestimating the power of being an intimidating jerk himself. He's like "yeah Taim's sorted I went by a few times and vaguely threatened him and looked super tough he knows I'm stronger he knows I'm hard I've looked him in the eye and he backed down, sure he'll give them special pins or whatever but I have proved that I am the Sigma Male" and, like everyone who thinks like that, he's being childish and wrong and it bites him in the ass.

 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I felt overall frustrated with how much Taim was able to get away with and how it seemed like Rand coulda shoulda been more engaged and aware of the goings on, compelling him to do something about it. On the other hand, I feel like Taim was very good at giving Rand just enough to let his guard down and necessarily deprioritize something on his overflowing plate. For example, he appears to turn over one of the seals from the dark one’s prison right off the bat and he plays a significant role in rescuing him at Dumai’s wells, among other things. As clear as it is to the reader that Rand should have caught on sooner or at least checked in and had more involvement with the BT, I can see how Taim managed to lure him into his complacency. 

[Aan-Alone]

On 12/14/2023 at 7:33 AM, Sabio said:

But we know from RJ's notes that Taim-andred was real and he was the one that originally killed Asmo.

Do you, by chance, have a link these notes? Until your post, I had heard this was only a rumor.

[Bugglesley]

On 12/22/2023 at 3:21 PM, Aan-Alone said:

Do you, by chance, have a link these notes? Until your post, I had heard this was only a rumor.

 

https://www.theoryland.com/forums/discussion/8767

 

That is the best one I found, it had been previously linked on dragonmount, in this thread. The theoryland post has a number of direct quotes from LoC-era notes including:

 

"[quote=RJ]b) Demandred: Hated/feared/despised Lews Therin. Like Lanfear, he plays for larger stakes than most of the others, who are trying to stake out wordly kingdoms. HE WILL SHOW UP CLAIMING TO BE [U][B]MAZRIM TAIM[/B][/U]. TAKING ADVANTAGE OF RAND'S AMNESTY.[/quote]
Also in Box 55, there is a file dedicated to Rand. On page 34 of that file, this paragraph appears twice in the notes on Dumai's Wells (note the change tthing that's o past tense):

[quote=RJ]Taim/Demandred showed up, not so much because his party wants Rand free -- though that might be a point in their plans; on the other hand, Rand in the hands of the White Tower, and thus within Mesaana's power, could still cause one hell of a lot of chaos -- but because of learning that the Shaido were moving in. They could not be sure the Aes Sedai could drive off the Shaido, nor that the Shaido would not kill Rand. And a rescued Rand, pissed at the Aes Sedai will [U]really[/U] be a source of chaos and disunity.[/quote]"

 

I'm pretty sure the poster is a known member of the community who had access to the notes and the quotes are trustable.

 

It's definitely worth it to replicate my research and type "Taimandred" into google. There are a dizzying variety of threads back in the dragonmount archives, on reddit, on Tar Valon Library, and on theoryland that make Taimandred all but confirmed as of LoC, the only real unknown here is why exactly RJ changed his mind.

 

In my estimation, what "just rumors" isn't Taimandred itself, but more the narrative that "RJ changed it because people guessed" or "because he thought it was too obvious"--maybe he just liked it better this way and changed his mind. Maybe he thought up the Shara stuff and was like "oh yeah that's better let's do that." But it is pretty established here in 2023 that there was a change along the way.

[Aan-Alone]

Thank you for your reply. And a very Merry Xmas to you and yours!

 

My stance/opinion on this particular topic was/has always been that RJ would never have planned to have Demandred pretending to be Mazrim Taim. It's just too obvious a choice, although I can see how others could 'connect the dots' and arrive at this conclusion. A lot, if not all, of the pieces fit...so to speak. I thought RJ was tons more clever than this. It seems that RJ had almost everything worked out from the beginning. Hence all the early foreshadowing of events, major and minor, in the story.

 

Having Demandred follow a similar path as Rand, but with the Sharans and do mostly all of this completely off-screen [as River of Souls would suggest]...to me that makes sense and even feels right. Well, more right than having Demandred pose as Taim. Given Demandred's character and motivations I never really saw Taim-andred as 'working' within the WoT story-line. It would have been too much of a stretch for Demandred. At some point he would have snapped. Demandred's ego is too big to have it any other way.

 

Of course, sometimes it's best to hide [or be hidden] in plain site too.

 

I'm starting my next readthrough soon and will be keeping an eye out for any early foreshadowing either way. Maybe I'll see something I haven't before.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:43 PM, Aan-Alone said:

Thank you for your reply. And a very Merry Xmas to you and yours!

 

My stance/opinion on this particular topic was/has always been that RJ would never have planned to have Demandred pretending to be Mazrim Taim. It's just too obvious a choice, although I can see how others could 'connect the dots' and arrive at this conclusion. A lot, if not all, of the pieces fit...so to speak. I thought RJ was tons more clever than this. It seems that RJ had almost everything worked out from the beginning. Hence all the early foreshadowing of events, major and minor, in the story.

 

Having Demandred follow a similar path as Rand, but with the Sharans and do mostly all of this completely off-screen [as River of Souls would suggest]...to me that makes sense and even feels right. Well, more right than having Demandred pose as Taim. Given Demandred's character and motivations I never really saw Taim-andred as 'working' within the WoT story-line. It would have been too much of a stretch for Demandred. At some point he would have snapped. Demandred's ego is too big to have it any other way.

 

Of course, sometimes it's best to hide [or be hidden] in plain site too.

 

I'm starting my next readthrough soon and will be keeping an eye out for any early foreshadowing either way. Maybe I'll see something I haven't before.

Everything you say here makes total sense and checks out. I will admit though, in my case, only in hindsight. When I was reading the first time through, I thought Taim was Demandred. I devoured the books back to back after the series was already completed so there was no waiting between books and no time for me to think past what was on the page. That’s just me though. It sounds like you’ve only read the series once as well, so let me just say that I admire your skill as a perceptive reader! Your insights come across to me like someone who has read the books more than once. 

[Aan-Alone]

13 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

It sounds like you’ve only read the series once as well, so let me just say that I admire your skill as a perceptive reader! Your insights come across to me like someone who has read the books more than once. 

I've only read WoT front-to-back once, 6 months ago or so. But I've been reading WoT since sometime in the early to mid 90's. I'm part of the OG crowd who would read all the prior books before the next one came out...to catch myself up. And in-between I'd visit the various internet  sites and read over the crazy, and not-so-crazy, theories everyone had. Reading from release-to-release, I've also only read the entire series once. And I took a very long break from WoT (10 years or so) after finishing AMoL the first time.

 

Suffice to say I've had much exposure and time to let ideas stew. But I never bought into Taim-andred. At least as much as I can recall I don't think I did. The more you read the series, the more you start to see, and be blown away by, all the connections RJ wove into the story. Some things jump out at you, while others you miss completely...and by you I mean me. I didn't realize the significance of Cabriana Sedai until this latest read through. And I totally missed the connection with the apple farmer altogether.

 

I think it's very difficult to pick up on all these things just from the books. Sites like Dragonmount and others, and the people who post there, are an invaluable reference and research aid. I wouldn't know half as much as I think I do about WoT without them.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 12/27/2023 at 3:50 PM, Aan-Alone said:

I've only read WoT front-to-back once, 6 months ago or so. But I've been reading WoT since sometime in the early to mid 90's. I'm part of the OG crowd who would read all the prior books before the next one came out...to catch myself up. And in-between I'd visit the various internet  sites and read over the crazy, and not-so-crazy, theories everyone had. Reading from release-to-release, I've also only read the entire series once. And I took a very long break from WoT (10 years or so) after finishing AMoL the first time.

 

Suffice to say I've had much exposure and time to let ideas stew. But I never bought into Taim-andred. At least as much as I can recall I don't think I did. The more you read the series, the more you start to see, and be blown away by, all the connections RJ wove into the story. Some things jump out at you, while others you miss completely...and by you I mean me. I didn't realize the significance of Cabriana Sedai until this latest read through. And I totally missed the connection with the apple farmer altogether.

 

I think it's very difficult to pick up on all these things just from the books. Sites like Dragonmount and others, and the people who post there, are an invaluable reference and research aid. I wouldn't know half as much as I think I do about WoT without them.

Agreed with what you say about how much RJ wove into the story and I don’t think it’s possible to pick up on so much of it the first time through. Especially in my case since I devoured the series back to back so ravenously without the forced break between books that the OG crew went through and gave them time to think about things more. I am not sure if I know what the significance of Cabriana Sedai or the apple farmer is yet. Can you enlighten me?

[Aan-Alone]

12 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Agreed with what you say about how much RJ wove into the story and I don’t think it’s possible to pick up on so much of it the first time through. Especially in my case since I devoured the series back to back so ravenously without the forced break between books that the OG crew went through and gave them time to think about things more. I am not sure if I know what the significance of Cabriana Sedai or the apple farmer is yet. Can you enlighten me?

Cabriana(sp?) Sedai was the AS that Sermihage, I think, was torturing. Along with Cabriana's Warder. Cabriana was a member of "The Three", a trio of AS who were always together as they were coming up in the WT. Lone Besties since being Novices, I think it's implied. I recall mention that "The Three" didn't really have any other friends, or maybe no other friends left living. The one whose name escapes me is one of the AS who dies mysteriously, and her death is also our introduction to her. I thought/assumed that her mysterious demise [the AS I can't recall the name of] was just story filler. I should have known better...

"The Three" were [can't recall her name] Sedai, Cabriana Sedai,...and Danelle Sedai. The same Danelle that Messana is impersonating as in the WT. So Cabriana's torture, combined with [unknown's death], was an early clue as to who Messana could be impersonating. There's probably details I'm forgetting, but that's the jist of why Cabriana's significance.

 

The apple farmer Rand meets and talks with as Rand is walking towards Tar Valon to meet with Amrilyn Egwene, after Rand has his epiphany atop Dragonmount and becomes 'Zen Rand'. The farm/orchard where the apples miraculously appear on the trees after we read about them [the apples] blossoming very undersize and then they all drop to the ground. The farmer who has to console his family and workers with the prospect that they may all starve to death because of the failed crop. That's the same farmer that gives Rand and Matt a lift in his wagon as they're headed to Caemlyn for the first time, way back in TEotW.

Sadly, I don't recall his name [the farmer's] either. I've always been terrible at remembering names.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Anayia. Light I have been listening to the audiobook so long I have no idea how you spell that any more. 

 

A unfitting death IMHO as Anayia was the only plain AS and was killed off for really little reason at a time that made no sense. But meh, I'm sure everyone will tell me to toughen up. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

The farmer, Hiyam Kinch? Not really sure. I was always convinced that Rand and Mat were in a paradox - that the same farmer drops them off at the beginning of  the chapter that picks them up at the end - but I'm reliably informed that only happened in my head. So, not the best person to ask about this. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

On a totally unrelated point I only noticed today that they courtyard in the Caemlyn Palace that Mat meets Morgase (with a pond with red and white fish) is the same that Rahvin is trying to turn Rand into an ass in later in Tar. 

 

And also that Rahvin is taller than 6'6". Light RJ does a good job of letting men know what it is like to be unable to meet physical standards. If only if wasn't worse with women. 

[Aan-Alone]

5 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

The farmer, Hiyam Kinch? Not really sure. I was always convinced that Rand and Mat were in a paradox - that the same farmer drops them off at the beginning of  the chapter that picks them up at the end - but I'm reliably informed that only happened in my head. So, not the best person to ask about this. 

That's him.

Those chapters were only slightly harder to follow along than the plot of the movie 'Memento'. I wonder if Christopher Nolan is a WoT fan?

 

I believe that's her too, but I'm not certain. And if it is, we were introduced to Anayia Sedai some time before her untimely death. I recall her interacting with some of the main cast.

Edited January 1 by Aan-Alone
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[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

8 hours ago, Aan-Alone said:

That's him.

Those chapters were only slightly harder to follow along than the plot of the movie 'Memento'. I wonder if Christopher Nolan is a WoT fan?

 

I believe that's her too, but I'm not certain. And if it is, we were introduced to Anayia Sedai some time before her untimely death. I recall her interacting with some of the main cast.

Lol, I have seen that movie so many times. A modern classic. 

 

Yes Anayia was one of the OG Aes Sedai that arrives at Fal Dará, and as Blue Ajah is busy with Moiraine. She is also the first person that suspects Egwene is a dreamer as Egwene turns to her as Moiraine has done a runner. 

 

She also is used a lot with mat's healing, Salidar Council, quite a few bits. Killing her off for a really tenuous reason - Halima had been in the camp for ages - felt wrong, like it was an idea that RJ had rejected and then added back in at the wrong point. IMHO, of course. 

[Aan-Alone]

6 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Killing her off for a really tenuous reason - Halima had been in the camp for ages

If Anayia Sedai is the third member of "The Three", she may have been killed off to help provide cover for Messana's impersonation of Danelle Sedai. Anayia and Cabriana, being Danelle's [only] close friends in the WT, would have been able to notice the behavioural changes in Messana's performance and potentially start asking questions or otherwise draw unwanted attention towards Danelle Sedai. The timing may have been chosen by RJ to throw the reader off-track from making the connection?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

5 minutes ago, Aan-Alone said:

If Anayia Sedai is the third member of "The Three", she may have been killed off to help provide cover for Messana's impersonation of Danelle Sedai. Anayia and Cabriana, being Danelle's [only] close friends in the WT, would have been able to notice the behavioural changes in Messana's performance and potentially start asking questions or otherwise draw unwanted attention towards Danelle Sedai. The timing may have been chosen by RJ to throw the reader off-track from making the connection?

That certainly could be the case. It just felt a bit strange, a bit like an after thought, and it also highlighted that the Black Ajah could have done that at any time. The death toll would have been high and everyone would be so paranoid that the Tower would have stopped to function. 

 

But yes, possibly I did not consider all the possibilities.

[Figs and Mice]

12 hours ago, Aan-Alone said:

If Anayia Sedai is the third member of "The Three", she may have been killed off to help provide cover for Messana's impersonation of Danelle Sedai. Anayia and Cabriana, being Danelle's [only] close friends in the WT, would have been able to notice the behavioural changes in Messana's performance and potentially start asking questions or otherwise draw unwanted attention towards Danelle Sedai. The timing may have been chosen by RJ to throw the reader off-track from making the connection?

Unfortunately for that theory , Danelle is not the other member of "the Three". She is in fact a solitary Brown with virtually no friends (making her a very convenient target for takeover).  The "Three" are actually all Blues : Cabriana , Anaiya , and Kairen (the latter two both murdered by Arangar.

[Aan-Alone]

8 hours ago, Figs and Mice said:

Unfortunately for that theory , Danelle is not the other member of "the Three". She is in fact a solitary Brown with virtually no friends (making her a very convenient target for takeover).  The "Three" are actually all Blues : Cabriana , Anaiya , and Kairen (the latter two both murdered by Arangar.

Heh... old man brain strikes again. I wonder where, or when, my wires got crossed.

Is there any significance about the Three then? Seems an odd fact to just be all by itself.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Halima (Aran'gar) claimed to be Cabriana's companion. So the theory of the Aes Sedai was that the murders were to prevent Cabriana's good friends discovering the deception. But the timing seems wrong. Unless Delana was about to leave? Not that I can remember. 

 

I suppose just because Egwene thinks so, it does not mean that this was the true reason. But if it was just to spread chaos, then it would actually endanger Aran'gar as it highlighted the link. 

 

Anyway never felt right to me, so maybe I am missing something. 

 

[Aan-Alone]

I'm with you then HHMB, which may be how I felt when I first read the series.