Rand's criminal negligence of Mazrim Taim

[Dark Ones Taint]

Rand drove me nuts with his behavior though most of the books.  I was especially irritated by Rand's negligence with Mazrim Taim.  He gets many warnings about Taim and does nothing.  Early on, I actually thought Taim was going to turn out to be a Forsaken in disguise, so I was wrong about that.  But Taim ascending to Forsaken status is even worse.  Rand allowed him to train the next generation of Dread Lords.  

The minute Logain came to Rand with essentially a final warning about Taim, Rand should have done something.  Replacing Taim and company with a loyal Logain would have saved so many lives. 

I think if the author's intent was solely to create Dread Lords, it could have been executed better.   

[Kathy Campbell]

Agreed completely. There is (I believe unsubstantiated rumor) that Robert Jordan had planned to have Taim be Demandred but everyone guessed it so he switched it. Which would make sense, since it was so obvious.

[Vartija]

No doubt one of Rand's biggest blunders. I remember wanting to yell "GO FIX THE BLACK TOWER" at Rand when it started to be obvious Taim was corrupting the institution. But no, he always found something more important to do until it was too dangerous for him to get near the place. I so wanted the Black Tower to be kind of like a reformed Aes Sedai order so it was very frustrating to see Rand just neglect the institution after setting it up. At least the good guys eventually took matters to their own hands. 

 

Of course, Rand was going a bit nutty and paranoid at that time already and there was still the prevalent idea that male channellers would only be used as a weapon in the Last Battle so maybe he didn't have a long perspective about it. No doubt it was also convenient for the plot to have a place where the dark forces could recruit and train new dreadlords. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Vartija

[Dark Ones Taint]

2 hours ago, Kathy Campbell said:

Agreed completely. There is (I believe unsubstantiated rumor) that Robert Jordan had planned to have Taim be Demandred but everyone guessed it so he switched it. Which would make sense, since it was so obvious.

 

 

Alright that would make sense, that's who I thought it was going to be!  I thought it was Demandred, possibly in Taim's old body.  Once we learn that the DO can put their souls back into bodies (which is around the same time Taim shows up at the black tower) I suspected that was the play.  There's the moment with Bashere not recognizing Taim as well. That could have been a red herring, but I interpreted it as Demandred not getting a mannerism right.   

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

20 hours ago, Dark Ones Taint said:

was especially irritated by Rand's negligence with Mazrim Taim.  He gets many warnings about Taim and does nothing

First of all, your name is filling my heart with joy. I can’t to this day read that phrase in the books and not chuckle followed by unfortunate thoughts and images that derail me entirely from the narrative because despite my age, I have a weakness for immature hilarity. Don’t even get me started on all the references to fingering. Yikes I may have crossed a line into full inappropriate conversation. If you’ve made it this far, allow me to comment in All seriousness. I agree. The way Rand intitiated and then subsequently abandoned/neglected and /or completely forgot about, eliminating any desire to participate or interact with his creation and the male channelers and his initial responsibility/creation of said institution is thoroughly frustrating 

[DojoToad]

20 hours ago, Dark Ones Taint said:

Rand drove me nuts with his behavior though most of the books.  I was especially irritated by Rand's negligence with Mazrim Taim.  He gets many warnings about Taim and does nothing.  Early on, I actually thought Taim was going to turn out to be a Forsaken in disguise, so I was wrong about that.  But Taim ascending to Forsaken status is even worse.  Rand allowed him to train the next generation of Dread Lords.  

The minute Logain came to Rand with essentially a final warning about Taim, Rand should have done something.  Replacing Taim and company with a loyal Logain would have saved so many lives. 

I think if the author's intent was solely to create Dread Lords, it could have been executed better.   

But I thought prophecy demanded a new crew of Dreadlords at the Last Battle.  If Rand had done something about Taim, he would have broken prophecy.   Maybe the Pattern prevented him from taking action...

 

Though I was very frustrated with his lack of addressing the obvious need as well.

[Dark Ones Taint]

5 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

But I thought prophecy demanded a new crew of Dreadlords at the Last Battle.  If Rand had done something about Taim, he would have broken prophecy.   Maybe the Pattern prevented him from taking action...

 

Though I was very frustrated with his lack of addressing the obvious need as well.

 

 

Was that part of the prophecy?  I can't recall, but even if it was, I would argue that nothing stipulates that Rand be instrumental in how the Dread Lords come about.  I remember when I first heard about them,  I thought they would be some sort of special creation...like Myrddraal. In reality they are just dark friends who are powerful channelers.  Could we consider the red veiled Aiel to be DL?  

If we were Aes Sedai we could definitely interpret that to be the case, hah.  

[Dark Ones Taint]

28 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

First of all, your name is filling my heart with joy. I can’t to this day read that phrase in the books and not chuckle followed by unfortunate thoughts and images that derail me entirely from the narrative because despite my age, I have a weakness for immature hilarity. Don’t even get me started on all the references to fingering. Yikes I may have crossed a line into full inappropriate conversation. If you’ve made it this far, allow me to comment in All seriousness. I agree. The way Rand intitiated and then subsequently abandoned/neglected and /or completely forgot about, eliminating any desire to participate or interact with his creation and the male channelers and his initial responsibility/creation of said institution is thoroughly frustrating 

 

 

Thanks! I was honestly shocked that it was an available username, especially after all these years. I am glad no one took it!  Sometimes it felt like Jordan was intentionally using it, as an inside joke.  

His use of fingering had me laughing as well, but in that case it seemed like he just refused to use any other synonym.  Perrin 'fingering his axe" just seemed too perfect, but at some point all the characters are fingering, including sausage fingered Loial!  

 

Rand refusing to deal with things/people, was a constant annoyance to me!  He puts talking to the sea folk off forever and can't be bothered to meet with the borderlanders...because he does't know what they are up to...

But letting Taim loose is by far the worst.  Hell, Egwene might actually have lived were it not for Rand's ineptitude.  

[Vartija]

5 minutes ago, Dark Ones Taint said:

Rand refusing to deal with things/people, was a constant annoyance to me!  He puts talking to the sea folk off forever and can't be bothered to meet with the borderlanders...because he does't know what they are up to...

Haha, now that you put it like that he did have a habit of avoiding uncomfortable situations. I can definitely empathize though. I'm not sure of the timeline but I wonder how much of it was after the box and fear of being trapped by hostile forces, and the usual paranoia about being lead on a Tar Valon leash. The Seafolk thing was quite jarring as well when he gets mad about the negoatiation results after neglecting the whole process.

 

13 minutes ago, Dark Ones Taint said:

Hell, Egwene might actually have lived were it not for Rand's ineptitude.  

I didn't mention this side of it in my earlier post but it definitely made it even more painful that Taim played a key role in Egwene's fate. I think back to the beginning of EOTW and how one of Rand's primary motivations was to keep Egwene safe on a journey she didn't even need to be on, and then his poor decisions (partly) lead to the rise of Taim and his role in the Last Battle.   

[Dark Ones Taint]

1 hour ago, Vartija said:

Haha, now that you put it like that he did have a habit of avoiding uncomfortable situations. I can definitely empathize though. I'm not sure of the timeline but I wonder how much of it was after the box and fear of being trapped by hostile forces, and the usual paranoia about being lead on a Tar Valon leash. The Seafolk thing was quite jarring as well when he gets mad about the negoatiation results after neglecting the whole process.

 

I didn't mention this side of it in my earlier post but it definitely made it even more painful that Taim played a key role in Egwene's fate. I think back to the beginning of EOTW and how one of Rand's primary motivations was to keep Egwene safe on a journey she didn't even need to be on, and then his poor decisions (partly) lead to the rise of Taim and his role in the Last Battle.   

 

I just realized I didn't respond to your earlier post, but I meant too! My apologies.  I joined this site hoping to be able to talk to fellow fans and I don't intend to ignore anyone.  In regards to that post, I don't think Rand was ALWAYS doing more important things.  Certainly he was doing important things off screen, but there was a fair amount of time that we spent with him that he was doing nothing important.  

 

I agree that he was clearly paranoid and nutty and I can't fault him for those things.  But if your whole goal is to make it to the Last Battle and win, I just don't get him making it so much harder on himself.  

 

Yes, it was sad that Egwene paid the price!  I suppose on the plus side Egwene secured legendary status, the Battle Amyrlin!  She wasn't my favorite character by far, but she would win me over from time to time.  Her being humbled by the Aiel and then her resilience at the White Tower made me like her more.  

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

2 hours ago, DojoToad said:

1 hour ago, Dark Ones Taint said:

 

 

Thanks! I was honestly shocked that it was an available username, especially after all these years. I am glad no one took it!  Sometimes it felt like Jordan was intentionally using it, as an inside joke.  

His use of fingering had me laughing as well, but in that case it seemed like he just refused to use any other synonym.  Perrin 'fingering his axe" just seemed too perfect, but at some point all the characters are fingering, including sausage fingered Loial!  

 

Rand refusing to deal with things/people, was a constant annoyance to me!  He puts talking to the sea folk off forever and can't be bothered to meet with the borderlanders...because he does't know what they are up to...

But letting Taim loose is by far the worst.  Hell, Egwene might actually have lived were it not for Rand's ineptitude.  

well my hats off to you for being the one who snagged the best user name ever! We also have the privilege of hearing about “morning after head” from time to time. Priceless. 
 

Oh absolutely agree with you on the rand topic! I can accept that it may have been essential for the overall fulfillment of the plot, but it doesn’t make me cringe any less when I read it 

[Dark Ones Taint]

16 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

 

 

 

I also thought "pillow friends" was more than suggestive!

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Dark Ones Taint said:

 

 

Thanks! I was honestly shocked that it was an available username, especially after all these years. I am glad no one took it!  Sometimes it felt like Jordan was intentionally using it, as an inside joke.  

His use of fingering had me laughing as well, but in that case it seemed like he just refused to use any other synonym.  Perrin 'fingering his axe" just seemed too perfect, but at some point all the characters are fingering, including sausage fingered Loial!  

 

Rand refusing to deal with things/people, was a constant annoyance to me!  He puts talking to the sea folk off forever and can't be bothered to meet with the borderlanders...because he does't know what they are up to...

But letting Taim loose is by far the worst.  Hell, Egwene might actually have lived were it not for Rand's ineptitude.  

People have flaws - some of Rand's were avoidance/procrastination.  The fact that Jordan was able to elicit an emotional response shows how good his writing was.  He made us love and hate his characters - what an author is supposed to do.

[Dark Ones Taint]

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

People have flaws - some of Rand's were avoidance/procrastination.  The fact that Jordan was able to elicit an emotional response shows how good his writing was.  He made us love and hate his characters - what an author is supposed to do.

 

 

Oh, I am not criticizing Jordan's writing.  I personally don't care for Rand much, which amongst my own friend group is an unpopular opinion.  The fact that he never cared to actually learn Aiel custom from Aviendha irked me.  I know he had a lot going on, but there were periods of time he's just traveling with her and not taking any of it. That just seems disrespectful.  So yes, Jordan did elicit emotion from me, hah.  

[Scarloc99]

Rand’s behavior makes perfect sense to me, and is explained in the books. let’s look at the reality of the situation here. 
 

Rand’s initial concerns about Taim came largely from the voice of a mad man in his own head, a voice that he was afraid would make him act irrationally. Taim was a tool, as where all the Ashaman, while the taint existed Rand didn’t need to worry about the future of the black tower, he simply needed weapons for now, any strange behavior by ashaman could also be put down to the madness that Rand himself was feeling. 
 

Then Rand cleans the taint and at the same time Logain joins the black tower. At that point in Rand’s head having 2 competing leaders will make any uprising by the whole tower unlikely, but he is also heading into the depths of despair that the dark lord has set him on. He is not thinking straight and also, has an entire nation to bring together? The Seanchan to fight and other things going on like killing forsaken. Events that in the book take a few pages are, remember, weeks and months of time in story. He has to prioritize and, at that point, he isn’t aware that channelers can be forced to turn. So if Taim is a bad apple then Logain will control him and the entire tower will support the dragon. 
 

Then Rand figures out something bad is happening, but, the dream shard is up and he realises it is a trap. Cadusane advises him against going, and he agrees, correctly. But, he also needs to fix everything else he has messed up while he was mad Rand. He accepts, with reluctance, that the Ashaman in the tower are going to need to sort out their own future. But, he also realises that this is a good thing. They need to break free of the idea that they depend on him for protection and existence because he will cease to be around afterwards. 
 

If he had fixated on the tower he would have lost the world and possibly not sorted the Seanchan issue in the way he did. He also may not have found that peace he needed to on the top of Dragonmount. 
 

No Rand didn’t frustrate me at all, Perrin on the other hand took far too long between knowing there was a traveling issue at the tower and then going and doing anything about it. That for me was Sanderson trying to create artificial tension at the black tower in a way Jordan would never have done and as a result the writing feels a bit shonky. 

[Scarloc99]

18 hours ago, Dark Ones Taint said:

 

 

Oh, I am not criticizing Jordan's writing.  I personally don't care for Rand much, which amongst my own friend group is an unpopular opinion.  The fact that he never cared to actually learn Aiel custom from Aviendha irked me.  I know he had a lot going on, but there were periods of time he's just traveling with her and not taking any of it. That just seems disrespectful.  So yes, Jordan did elicit emotion from me, hah.  

Rand tried to learn, but, you are trying to force so much learning into one person in such a short space of time, everything’s about the Aiel, the politics of the wetlands etc combined with Rand becoming more and more fatalistic slipping into despair. 
 

Also Rand knew he was destined to break the Aiel, so why learn things that either would ever again be relevant, or that he would be dead and not need anyway. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[Elendir]

Rand thinks himself to be bad news for Aiels. He wanted to distance himself from them.

 

By the way, do you have any good time on your mind, when he had to struck Taim? Too soon, no Black tower. Too late, Dragon captured by dreadlords. Was there good time for it at all.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

19 hours ago, Elendir said:

Rand thinks himself to be bad news for Aiels. He wanted to distance himself from them.

 

By the way, do you have any good time on your mind, when he had to struck Taim? Too soon, no Black tower. Too late, Dragon captured by dreadlords. Was there good time for it at all.

Interesting thought. As thoroughly baffled as I still am at this point in my first reread of the series by the handling of the BT by Rand, I admit I don’t have any idea what alternative would be preferable (in terms of the realistic and practical limitations on rands time and attention to go around) and what timing would have been ideal to strike even if an alternative approach existed. Having said that, I still can’t comprehend how the deeply paranoid and innately untrusting Rand at that point in the story essentially sought out, gathered and subsequently created an unstoppable force of powerful, sizable, concentrated and unpredictable/dangerous army of male channelers and then appeared to entirely ignore and neglect the whole thing. He never seemed to have much trust for taim from the get go. It’s like he kinda knowingly created a monster that clearly was as likely to turn against him as follow him, and instead of taking that knowledge of the necessary risk and being alert and observant of the situation, I felt like he just abandoned and blocked the whole thing from his consciousness entirely! Ok, rant concluded. I didn’t realize how much I needed to get that off my chest, thank you for the opportunity and sorry for the long post. But. Wtf?

[Scarloc99]

15 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Interesting thought. As thoroughly baffled as I still am at this point in my first reread of the series by the handling of the BT by Rand, I admit I don’t have any idea what alternative would be preferable (in terms of the realistic and practical limitations on rands time and attention to go around) and what timing would have been ideal to strike even if an alternative approach existed. Having said that, I still can’t comprehend how the deeply paranoid and innately untrusting Rand at that point in the story essentially sought out, gathered and subsequently created an unstoppable force of powerful, sizable, concentrated and unpredictable/dangerous army of male channelers and then appeared to entirely ignore and neglect the whole thing. He never seemed to have much trust for taim from the get go. It’s like he kinda knowingly created a monster that clearly was as likely to turn against him as follow him, and instead of taking that knowledge of the necessary risk and being alert and observant of the situation, I felt like he just abandoned and blocked the whole thing from his consciousness entirely! Ok, rant concluded. I didn’t realize how much I needed to get that off my chest, thank you for the opportunity and sorry for the long post. But. Wtf?

Rand could not train the Ashaman himself and he knew he needed male channelers as weapons to win the war. At the start Rand thought that Lewis was being irrational about Taim but he also failed to consider that Taim might turn to the shadow, he saw Taim as being a threat because he wanted to be Dragon. 

[Elendir]

19 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Interesting thought. As thoroughly baffled as I still am at this point in my first reread of the series by the handling of the BT by Rand, I admit I don’t have any idea what alternative would be preferable (in terms of the realistic and practical limitations on rands time and attention to go around) and what timing would have been ideal to strike even if an alternative approach existed. Having said that, I still can’t comprehend how the deeply paranoid and innately untrusting Rand at that point in the story essentially sought out, gathered and subsequently created an unstoppable force of powerful, sizable, concentrated and unpredictable/dangerous army of male channelers and then appeared to entirely ignore and neglect the whole thing. He never seemed to have much trust for taim from the get go. It’s like he kinda knowingly created a monster that clearly was as likely to turn against him as follow him, and instead of taking that knowledge of the necessary risk and being alert and observant of the situation, I felt like he just abandoned and blocked the whole thing from his consciousness entirely! Ok, rant concluded. I didn’t realize how much I needed to get that off my chest, thank you for the opportunity and sorry for the long post. But. Wtf?

 

I agree with you, that we can call it mistake with colossal consequences. I am just looking at circumstances as much as mistake itself.

 

Rand was Mad,

he had a lot of responsibilities over 4 countries + aiels, Aes sedai and Sea Folk,

He had to start black tower,

He had no one he could trust with the black tower.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Elendir

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, Elendir said:

 

I agree with you, that we can call it mistake with colossal consequences. I am just looking at circumstances as much as mistake itself.

 

Rand was Mad,

he had a lot of responsibilities over 4 countries + aiels, Aes sedai and Sea Folk,

He had to start black tower,

He had no one he could trust with the black tower.

I will add to that, he had no idea that Channelers could be “forced” to turn to the shadow. If he had then he would probably have made some alternative decisions and safeguards, and had no idea that traveling could be blocked.
 

If you assume worse case  50% of  your Ashaman might become dark friends you can assume the other 50% will fight them so self policing itself. The moment you find out that those ashaman who are on your side can be forced to switch the scales then tip massively. Now the realistic probability was 10-20% dark friends, in that case with no forced turning the black tower can easily police itself. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Good point regarding not knowing that channelers could be forced to the dark side. Additionally I thoroughly understand and agree that Rand had so many obligations and couldn’t possibly see to them all himself. I get the necessity to address the gathering and training of male channelers and the impracticality of Rand seeing to it himself. For one thing, he can’t train and teach the ability to harness the OP when he himself doesn’t know how or what to do. I’m aware of the situation being the way it is for a good reason but it still causes me excruciating and agonizing anxiety and frustration lol! 
 

one more question, did LTT know about the ability to force people to the shadow, was it common knowledge in the AOL? LTT is very adamant in using his knowledge to influence Rand. Too bad he’s mad and doesn’t explain his reasoning coherently. 

[Scarloc99]

5 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Good point regarding not knowing that channelers could be forced to the dark side. Additionally I thoroughly understand and agree that Rand had so many obligations and couldn’t possibly see to them all himself. I get the necessity to address the gathering and training of male channelers and the impracticality of Rand seeing to it himself. For one thing, he can’t train and teach the ability to harness the OP when he himself doesn’t know how or what to do. I’m aware of the situation being the way it is for a good reason but it still causes me excruciating and agonizing anxiety and frustration lol! 
 

one more question, did LTT know about the ability to force people to the shadow, was it common knowledge in the AOL? LTT is very adamant in using his knowledge to influence Rand. Too bad he’s mad and doesn’t explain his reasoning coherently. 

Not sure if LTT did know, it is clear the Aes Sedai did know, but in typical AS fashion decided not to share with anyone it might impact. It is also possible that by the time Rand had that knowledge (after the mind meld), he realised it was too late. the fact that Egwene sees it in her vision in the arches suggests that it was a possible future if Rand went to the black tower. We always assume that scene was in the white tower but it may have been she was in the cells of the black. 
 

 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 8/25/2023 at 4:28 AM, Scarloc99 said:

Not sure if LTT did know, it is clear the Aes Sedai did know, but in typical AS fashion decided not to share with anyone it might impact. It is also possible that by the time Rand had that knowledge (after the mind meld), he realised it was too late. the fact that Egwene sees it in her vision in the arches suggests that it was a possible future if Rand went to the black tower. We always assume that scene was in the white tower but it may have been she was in the cells of the black. 
 

 

Thanks for your insights, I appreciate the help from readers more knowledgeable and experienced than I am 👍

[Aan-Alone]

Are we assuming Rand had any say, or free will, in the matter?

He needed a teacher. There was no one else, not even Logain could fill that position. Taim 'endured', what, 14 years of the taint before meeting up with Rand. And channeling is addictive. Taim was the best/only choice.

As for what might and did happen at the BT, Rand knew. Maybe not for certain, but he at least suspected. The wonder girls had their "What-if" experiences. Those lasted hours. The wonder boys spent 3 months in "what-if" land. iirc.

Rand was also working on legacies. Pretty sure he viewed the BT as such from its inception.

To paraphrase Perrin..."They had very few choices left to them".

 

Taim-andred. You all got trolled by RJ. With the way RJ planned, Taim-andred was a red herring. RJ always had a plan and it was never what any of the majority thought.

 

In the end, Rand was responsible for events at the BT but his hands were tied by Fate, IMO.